Changing the nature

[myata]

In 1938, Austrians voted in the Anschluss referendum to join Hitler's Germany. For all we know, the vote was voluntary, "democratic" one could say today although some incidents of intimidation were reported. The choice was made and entered into the records of history. See, with the choices of this kind, what's said is said and what's done is done. They define the path and reflect the nature. They cannot be unsaid, unvoted - and undone.

For a time, we suspected that something was going on with America, with the incurable divisions, vitriol and hatred, the style and essence of politics. But those were only symptoms of something deeper: the change of nature. Can one vote for Hitler today, and four years on, have a change of heart and join the coalition? Does democracy work like that, simple and innocent? No fools here and no naive: we know the answer. Who votes is important. Their values, and principles - who they are, dictates their choices. We looked in the mirror: and now, we know.

This was an important exam and the results are in. America today is not the same place, the country and democracy of the founding fathers, battles and victories of WWII and the space age. It moved on, its values and its nature has changed. We knew the options and we chose, there were no innocents or naive. The results are in and they are both factual and final. The citizens test.

Let's see what happens next: we must also know, deep inside that something new will be happening, as our nature changed and as we know it. No, it won't be the same - some choices go deep, define and decide. A brave new world, so be it? Bring it on. We chose it.

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, myata said:

A brave new world, so be it? Bring it on. We chose it.

 

 

This is it.  You can't expect a change on this level to have zero unintended effects.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You can't expect a change on this level to have zero unintended effects.

Democracies can vote to end themselves. That is an easy, entropy-friendly option that's always there and on by default. Freedom is a choice, and responsibility. To keep it, is work, responsibility and vigilance. And we are too far down the highway of Time to pretend that we didn't know or understand the consequences.

[Nationalist]

Poor @myata. Poor poor @myata.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, myata said:

... understand the consequences.

Understanding the consequences requires discussion and a common space.  Until that returns there won't be any understanding or empathy.

[Deluge]

9 hours ago, myata said:

In 1938, Austrians voted in the Anschluss referendum to join Hitler's Germany. For all we know, the vote was voluntary, "democratic" one could say today although some incidents of intimidation were reported. The choice was made and entered into the records of history. See, with the choices of this kind, what's said is said and what's done is done. They define the path and reflect the nature. They cannot be unsaid, unvoted - and undone.

For a time, we suspected that something was going on with America, with the incurable divisions, vitriol and hatred, the style and essence of politics. But those were only symptoms of something deeper: the change of nature. Can one vote for Hitler today, and four years on, have a change of heart and join the coalition? Does democracy work like that, simple and innocent? No fools here and no naive: we know the answer. Who votes is important. Their values, and principles - who they are, dictates their choices. We looked in the mirror: and now, we know.

This was an important exam and the results are in. America today is not the same place, the country and democracy of the founding fathers, battles and victories of WWII and the space age. It moved on, its values and its nature has changed. We knew the options and we chose, there were no innocents or naive. The results are in and they are both factual and final. The citizens test.

Let's see what happens next: we must also know, deep inside that something new will be happening, as our nature changed and as we know it. No, it won't be the same - some choices go deep, define and decide. A brave new world, so be it? Bring it on. We chose it.

More Hitler talk again, Myata? What is it with democrats and their fascination with Nazi Germany? Could it be because you both share a love for socialism, slavery and death? 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

More Hitler talk again, Myata? What is it with democrats and their fascination with Nazi Germany? Could it be because you both share a love for socialism, slavery and death? 

I don't really think that's it. I think it's as simple as pure hatred of Orangemanbad. As unreal as it sounds, these poor tortured souls are poisoned with TDS.

[Deluge]

7 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I don't really think that's it. I think it's as simple as pure hatred of Orangemanbad. As unreal as it sounds, these poor tortured souls are poisoned with TDS.

TDS is very much a part of who they are, but so is the rest of that shit. These people barely deserve to be called people. 

[Nationalist]

13 minutes ago, Deluge said:

TDS is very much a part of who they are, but so is the rest of that shit. These people barely deserve to be called people. 

Meh...the world as they want it...is crumbling. @myata sounds like he's crumbling too.

But...America is soon going to close their border and drill baby drill. Those 2 actions alone will put more funds at their disposal.

[Deluge]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Meh...the world as they want it...is crumbling. @myata sounds like he's crumbling too.

But...America is soon going to close their border and drill baby drill. Those 2 actions alone will put more funds at their disposal.

And I can't wait! 

It's great, I feel better about this country every single day! 

[myata]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Until that returns there won't be any understanding or empathy.

.. or the evolution takes care of the consequences. We can choose whatever we like. We can even convince ourselves to not think of them. One thing that isn't in our power is to cancel the reality. It always catches up.

America's choice will define it for a long, long time now. If it finds a decent way our of here, then... wow. Not many in the long long history managed to though. Only for the objective record.

Edited November 7, 2024 by myata

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, myata said:

.. or the evolution takes care of the consequences. We can choose whatever we like. We can even convince ourselves to not think of them. One thing that isn't in our power is to cancel the reality. It always catches up.

America's choice will define it for a long, long time now. If it finds a decent way our of here, then... wow. Not many in the long long history managed to though. Only for the objective record.

Until you learn to say what you mean you can never choose what you like.

[myata]

The process of corruption and decay of democracy is always the same. For the record.

Progressive elites are detached and disconnected. Their choices are increasingly ineffective and irrelevant to the society. Instead of understanding and focusing on the society's problems they create imaginary quests and agendas: trans, immigration, masks, any number of examples. Biden's nomination, a disaster. A failure of responsibility.

Traditionalist elites fail to offer any positive directions and become essentially anti- whatever the progressive side is after.

In the environment of increasing polarization and stagnation, disengagement and frustration of the population grows dramatically. Extreme movements emerge, followed by ademocratic and anti-democratic cults.

In the political environment that offers few meaningful alternatives, large part of the society falls for charismatic demagogue leading authoritarian cult. Nothing new here. If the initial popular support of the cult should be taken as indication of its goodness then Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot have to be the moral pillars and saints of the brave new world. Only the logic, try to argue it.

The next stage isn't that difficult to predict: the corruption and folding of democratic institutions. In Germany it took less than a decade. U.S. is larger and more diverse so we'll have to see. But what could stand in its way and halt it? Nothing obvious but we'll have to see. Predictions and prophesies add very little in such times. Warning bells were ringing for a while now, but what use are they, if the subject is confused and paralyzed? And so, nothing is obvious for a long perspective ahead. Bring it on: we chose it.

Edited November 8, 2024 by myata

[NAME REMOVED]

On 11/6/2024 at 10:40 PM, myata said:

In 1938, Austrians voted in the Anschluss referendum to join Hitler's Germany. For all we know, the vote was voluntary, "democratic" one could say today although some incidents of intimidation were reported. The choice was made and entered into the records of history. See, with the choices of this kind, what's said is said and what's done is done. They define the path and reflect the nature. They cannot be unsaid, unvoted - and undone.

This is not even remotely true. The Austrian leader (under pressure from Nazis in Austria and Germany), proposed a referendum to keep Austria independent of Germany. In response, Germany invaded, and annexed Austria. Austria never voted to join Germany. Austria was conquered by Germany.  After Austria was absorbed into the Third Reich, all attempts at democratic votes were meaningless, since 99% would go along with Hitler, as the penalty for voting against would be a one-way ticket to a concentration camp. 

Without the Germans annexing Austria, historians estimate roughly 70% of the Austria population would ahve rejected the Anschluss.

Edited November 8, 2024 by DUI_Offender

[myata]

A sign of the post-reality world? Yeah we're bound to see more of it. Remember: we chose it.

[myata]

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Without the Germans annexing Austria, historians estimate roughly 70% of the Austria population would ahve rejected the Anschluss.

You know I have to apologize now as I reread the history. Hitler's invasion of Austria was clearly used as the blueprint for Putin's annexation of Crimea and the subsequent war. History repeats itself and we're failing to learn its lessons. Doesn't look encouraging.

The Anschluss

[User]

On 11/7/2024 at 4:07 AM, Michael Hardner said:

This is it.  You can't expect a change on this level to have zero unintended effects.

LOL, what meaningless drivel. 

[Nationalist]

28 minutes ago, User said:

LOL, what meaningless drivel. 

They're wallowing in self pity.

@myata is sinking fast. The poor...person had hope but...that hope has been dashed. And worse...Trump got a clear majority vote. Oh the horror!

@myata...try to not fall completely into dispare. You too @Michael Hardner. Think of it this way...

We all just a couple years ago, emerged from a global pandemic...apparently...and the global economy took it in the teeth. It was BAD! But we came out and one of the results...whether intentional or not...was 1 US surrender and 2 shiny new wars.

THIS...boys...is the IDEAL time to turn American business and resources loose! At least until America can fully recover, and maybe even reduce some o' that insane debt.

Get well soon...

[myata]

Split personality cannot go on forever. The choice was between leaving the past behind, abandoning it consciously and by choice; or embracing it. That choice is made now. Precedents and new normals set and created. Anyone can be the present. Cults can run governments. We cannot argue the reality, what's done is done no unsaying it, zero chance of walking back. But sure, it's a new reality here, before us. No denying, ignoring or refusing to admit it. The reality always catches up. Bring it on.