Are you a man or a woman?

[User]

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

As I've said many times before, this isn't about me. What I find ironic is that before I started posting in this thread, I had some different points of view. For instance, I thought that J.K. Rowling was right when she made her famous tweet. But the more I got into this debate, the more I came to believe that she was slightly off. Certainly not so off that she deserved the blacklisting she got, but off in the sense that I now agree with the new definitions of terms like man and woman in that they should be for people who identify as such, and add terms like cisgender or transgender if knowing a person's biological sex is important.

As I have said many times before, you are the one here making these arguments. I am responding to what you say.

We already have a way to know someones biological sex. We call them men and women, males and females. If there is someone who believes they are something they are not and wants to role play, we call them trans. 

 

 

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 11:22 AM, User said:

On 12/15/2024 at 3:09 AM, Scott75 said:

First of all, it's not my "dumb game". I'm just pointing out a fact. Secondly, I completely agree that not everyone defines male and female in the way that I and others do. If everyone did, I doubt we'd be having this debate to begin with. You may recall that in the post you were responding too, I was pointing out why your solution of just saying that "men are men" only works if everyone in a given audience agrees what a man is. Since there are clearly a fair amount of people (myself included) that now define men as people who identify as men, your solution won't work if anyone in a given audience has this definition, at least if you'd like to determine a person's biological sex.

Yes, this continues to be your dumb game.

What is this "dumb game" that you think I'm playing?

  

On 12/15/2024 at 11:22 AM, User said:

Even now... it is not my "solution" here. There is no problem.

The problem is that different groups of people define men and women differently. You seem to think that ignoring this will just make the problem disappear, but it won't.

On 12/15/2024 at 11:22 AM, User said:

Not everyone uses "cis" as you want to do...

As I've stated elsewhere, I generally -don't- use that word. I've been living in Mexico for the past 3 years and until just now, I didn't even know whether there was a Spanish translation for the term. I've never needed to know. In any case, I looked it up, and there is in fact a Spanish translation for it. The word is only needed if one is trying to determine whether someone gender identifies with their biological sex or not.

On 12/15/2024 at 11:22 AM, User said:

nor do they agree with that label.

There are longer ways to say the same thing, such as "biological male who identifies as a male". It's a lot longer but I'm guessing this could work for people who are offended by the term cis.

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

 

There are longer ways to say the same thing, such as "biological male who identifies as a male". It's a lot longer but I'm guessing this could work for people who are offended by the term cis.

Or just 'male'.  Worked for the last 3000 years or so. 

And if  you really need to tag it how bout 'straght' male.  We've been using that one for decades too. 

The only reason you want "Cis" is that you can use it as a pejorative. 

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 11:25 AM, User said:

On 12/15/2024 at 3:49 AM, Scott75 said:

What assertions of mine do you believe I refuse to defend?

Try reading and responding to my whole comment next time:

Alright, I've read your whole comment now and I can only see one assertion you believe that I've made and haven't defended- a "Democrat and Republican" assertion. By all means, quote me on this assertion you claim I've made.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Scott75

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 12:10 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/15/2024 at 2:28 AM, Scott75 said:

On 11/13/2024 at 3:18 PM, CdnFox said:

Oh look, the loser lefty is accusing others of what he has done himself.

Your latest unsubstantiated assertion made me smile. I believe Yoda said it well:

In other words I correctly pointed out Your hypocrisy And now you are buthurt and can't refute the point so for some reason you're going to resort to quoting Muppets. 

No, I'm just pointing out that making erroneous and insulting assertions aren't going to help move the actual topic of this thread forward.

[NAME REMOVED]

25 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

No, I'm just pointing out that making erroneous and insulting assertions aren't going to help move the actual topic of this thread forward.

But that's the entire M.O. of @User

[User]

1 minute ago, DUI_Offender said:

But that's the entire M.O. of @User

Try reading who he was responding to. You are blinded by your hard-on for me. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

No, I'm just pointing out that making erroneous and insulting assertions aren't going to help move the actual topic of this thread forward.

That's pretty much what your side's been doing since the beginning. And I agree it hasn't helped your case at all

[NAME REMOVED]

1 hour ago, User said:

Try reading who he was responding to. You are blinded by your hard-on for me. 

There is some speculation on this forum, that you were born with both a Penis and Vagina. It would explain your unhealthy obsession with Transgenders.

Can you confirm or deny this? 

[User]

4 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

There is some speculation on this forum, that you were born with both a Penis and Vagina. It would explain your unhealthy obsession with Transgenders.

Can you confirm or deny this? 

Interesting. You spend a lot of time talking about me with others? Some secret fan club you have going? LOL

 

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 12:13 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/15/2024 at 3:45 AM, Scott75 said:

On 11/15/2024 at 12:50 AM, CdnFox said:

You put no thought into your posts.

I think this statement is so obviously untrue that it's best to just quote it and let others decide for themselves who they want to believe.

They have.

I agree. Now hopefully we can get back to discussing the actual topic of this thread.

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:06 PM, Radiorum said:

On 12/15/2024 at 12:13 PM, CdnFox said:

They have. Look at their responses to you. They know that you can't defend your points, they note  that you're evasive, all you do is talk in lefty talking points and can't actually make an intelligent argument to save your life and everybody is pointing at it.

You put no thoughts into your post at all. You fancy yourself a bit of an intellectual wit but it's clear that your intellectual level is below average and certainly below the average of this board.

All you do is obfuscate now statements that do nothing to advance an actual argument and this post above is a perfect example

Lol, the best defense is an offense ... but try making it believable next time. You're not fooling anyone.

I think he may actually be fooling a few, including himself. It reminds me of a great saying:

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" :-p. 

[User]

10 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Alright, I've read your whole comment now and I can only see one assertion you believe that I've made and haven't defended- a "Democrat and Republican" assertion. By all means, quote me on this assertion you claim I've made.

Nah. By all means, stop digging up old posts and selectively responding to them. Tired of your dumb games. 

[User]

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

What is this "dumb game" that you think I'm playing?

I just explained it to you in the following posts you responded to... this is your problem you are creating and your absurd solutions you are proposing. 

There is no problem. 

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

The problem is that different groups of people define men and women differently. You seem to think that ignoring this will just make the problem disappear, but it won't.

Yes, that is your problem. Not mine. Not societies. One you are creating and pushing. 

I am not ignoring it, I am soundly rejecting it. 

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

The word is only needed if one is trying to determine whether someone gender identifies with their biological sex or not.

The word is not needed at all. 

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

There are longer ways to say the same thing, such as "biological male who identifies as a male". It's a lot longer but I'm guessing this could work for people who are offended by the term cis.

Nope. Just use male and female. 

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:18 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/15/2024 at 1:06 PM, Radiorum said:

Lol, the best defense is an offense ... but try making it believable next time. You're not fooling anyone.

First off, wrong account you forgot to switch  

Yet another one of your unsubstantiated assertions/insults I imagine, wasting everyone's time. I -know- you can do better, but recently you've gotten bogged down in this trash talk.

On 12/15/2024 at 1:18 PM, CdnFox said:

Second off everybody already believes it.

Except everyone who doesn't. Really CdnFox, can't you see how banal your comments here have become?

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:18 PM, CdnFox said:

On 12/15/2024 at 1:06 PM, Radiorum said:

“Cisgender” originated in the 1990s – coined by a biologist. As a scientific term, it merely means that the sexual identity of your body coincides with the sexual identity of your brain.

It appears that some cisgenders take offence to it, as if it is taking something away from them, some special categorization or privilege.

But of course, it doesn’t. It’s just another biological term used to describe a person.

I think at the root of all this anti-transgenderism is this feeling of being threatened by what you do not understand.

And there's zero thought in that.

No, Radiorum just wrote a few paragraphs on the history of the term Cisgender. It's one thing to disagree with a person, another thing entirely to dismiss the work they've put into their posts.

On 12/15/2024 at 1:18 PM, CdnFox said:

Not to mention the fact that it turns out to be inaccurate.

No, what Radiorum said was quite accurate. Dana Defosse, the biologist who coined the term cisgender, still speaks about it. Here's a good excerpt on what she's had to say in a recent article:

**
While I only intended cisgender to be a neutral term, people may sometimes be intimidated by the word because its universal acceptance reifies the fact that everyone has a gender identity. As scholar Kirby Conrod explains, the term gives voice to the unspoken and previously unnamed assumption of normality that accompanies having a gender identity consistent with the expectations afforded by the sex assigned at birth. Language defining people by their difference is used to reinforce power relations. As Conrod points out, consider how often speakers predicate others’ identities — the woman pilot, the trans musician, the African American senator.

Refusal to accept naming the gender identity of the vast majority of society preserves that veneer of normalcy, as in the “I’m not cisgender, I’m normal” trope. This is the same as saying, “I’m not heterosexual, I’m normal.”

The word cisgender is shunned because it challenges the false narrative that gender identity depends on biological sex. This is a pivotal paradigm of patriarchy, ensuring that the male gender confers an inherent justification for power over others. The fallacy of the inseparability of sex and gender is inherent in misogyny, and the perpetuation of heteronormativity, cisnormativity and oppressive forms of procreation.

**

Full article:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/elon-musk-cisgender-twitter-trans-18171527.php

Edited December 22, 2024 by Scott75

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

1. Refusal to accept naming the gender identity of the vast majority of society preserves that veneer of normalcy, as in the “I’m not cisgender, I’m normal” trope. This is the same as saying, “I’m not heterosexual, I’m normal.”

2. The word cisgender is shunned because it challenges the false narrative that gender identity depends on biological sex.

3. This is a pivotal paradigm of patriarchy, ensuring that the male gender confers an inherent justification for power over others.  

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/elon-musk-cisgender-twitter-trans-18171527.php

1. Shouldn't that say "I'm not homosexual, I'm normal ?" 
2. Well, the word "depends" itself... DEPENDS.  "Depends" as in "is dependent on" is clearly not true.  But "depends" as in "varies with" probably is true as most ARE cisgender.  Quibbling outside the Christmas Party, sorry.
3. Aw NOW you've done it, you've said "patriarchy" and everyone will get mad.  Truth be told you can't use that term in a conversation that aims to break down etymology independent of politics so you will lose people.

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 2:45 PM, Deluge said:

On 12/15/2024 at 10:40 AM, Scott75 said:

On 12/15/2024 at 8:24 AM, Michael Hardner said:

And here's a listmus test: People who come here to broadcast their views rather than dialogue, who see this activity as a zero-sum game, do not believe in politics. 

They believe in entertainment. 

They are part of the problem, in that discussion at a low level is needed today. And they would rather play games. 

They are not conservative.

I don't know if anyone is here to play games. I -do- believe that when people start insulting a person's views or worse, the person themselves, that it greatly impedes any productive discussion. At that point, I don't care whether they are conservative, liberal or something else, the result for me is the same, the quality of the conversation goes down.

No, the quality of the conversation drops when dishonesty makes its first appearance.

I've certainly seen various people from both sides of this debate accuse their ideological opponents of dishonesty. I myself haven't seen any evidence of anyone -trying- to deceive anyone else. There's a very big difference between being mistaken and trying to deceive others.

On 12/15/2024 at 2:45 PM, Deluge said:

Since I don't know at what point you entered this thread, I'm going to start at the beginning with you. 

First question: what choice did you make in this poll? 

Second question: What is your definition of a woman? 

I entered this thread in post #10. You responded to me in post #18.

As to your first question, for some reason, I wasn't able to participate in the poll. Perhaps that's just as well though, because given the nature of this thread, I think it would have been better to replace "I am a man" and "I identify as a man" with "I'm a cisgender man" and "I'm a transgender man". In any case, I'm a cisgender man.

As to your second question, as I told someone else (User, I believe), my definition of a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman. And yes, I know, this definition includes the word itself.  A lot of people are fine with that, but I know that some aren't and I imagine you're one of those people. If you want to know a person's biological sex and believe it wouldn't be inappropriate to ask, you can ask them that instead.

[Scott75]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

26 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

1. Refusal to accept naming the gender identity of the vast majority of society preserves that veneer of normalcy, as in the “I’m not cisgender, I’m normal” trope. This is the same as saying, “I’m not heterosexual, I’m normal.”

2. The word cisgender is shunned because it challenges the false narrative that gender identity depends on biological sex. 3.This is a pivotal paradigm of patriarchy, ensuring that the male gender confers an inherent justification for power over others. [snip]

**

Full article:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/elon-musk-cisgender-twitter-trans-18171527.php

1. Shouldn't that say "I'm not homosexual, I'm normal ?"

I don't think so. I think the point Dana was trying to make is that back in the day, people took offense to the term heterosexual, but now it's become normal and that eventually, the same will happen with the term cisgender.

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Well, the word "depends" itself... DEPENDS.  "Depends" as in "is dependent on" is clearly not true.  But "depends" as in "varies with" probably is true as most ARE cisgender.  Quibbling outside the Christmas Party, sorry.

I think Dana would agree with you? To be honest, I'm not really sure what the issue is here, so I can't be sure :-p.

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Aw NOW you've done it, you've said "patriarchy" and everyone will get mad.  Truth be told you can't use that term in a conversation that aims to break down etymology independent of politics so you will lose people.

Lol :-). To be fair, it wasn't me, it was Dana. Dana's certainly sounded righteous, but that doesn't mean she's right on that point. Honestly, I haven't looked into a lot of this 'patriarchy' business and I definitely think that some feminists can go too far. 

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 2:57 PM, Deluge said:

On 12/15/2024 at 3:18 AM, Scott75 said:

Change can certainly be painful at times. It reminds me of a quote from Frank Herbert that CdnFox really didn't like:

"Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future."

I'm sure it's a bit of an exageration, but I think there is some truth to it. The thing is, times change and people need come to terms with this. I can certainly agree that times don't always change in a progressive manner, but I definitely think that in this case, it is indeed progressive.

It's a massive exaggeration. I'm always down for change if it's for the better.

Well that's certainly good to hear.

On 12/15/2024 at 2:57 PM, Deluge said:

What you want is transsexualism everywhere, and that's not better for anyone. 

I'm not even sure what that means. What I want is for people to be able to define their gender as the gender they identify with. I also think that being more accepting of people who don't fit inside the conventional norms for gender could go a long way to making trans people not feel the need for hormones/hormone blockers and surgery and just be fine with the appearance that their biological sex gives them.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Scott75

[CdnFox]

10 hours ago, User said:

Interesting. You spend a lot of time talking about me with others? Some secret fan club you have going? LOL

 

It's the weekend. He's always like this on the weekends.  Weekends are drinky time. 

[CdnFox]

19 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Well that's certainly good to hear.

I'm not even sure what that means. What I want is for people to be able to define their gender as the gender they identify with.

They can do whatever they want. They can do that right now. So mission accomplished you're done  

The problem however is that is NOT want you want. Or at least not all that you want

Quote

I also think that being more accepting of people who don't fit inside the conventional norms for gender could go a long way to making trans people not feel the need for hormones/hormone blockers and surgery and just be fine with the appearance that their biological sex gives them.

So here we get to the problem. You don't just want people to be able to identify as they like. You want others to accept this identity and be compelled by law to promote their lie. And it is a lie, a man is not a woman just like it would be a lie for me to demand i identify as a minor and try to ride the bus for free or for a 30 year old to say he identifies as a 65 year old and demand his canada pension  

Now for the most part it's a relatively harmless lie in most cases and i think most people would consider it a white lie and play along because why not. 

But you won't let it rest there.  You demand that a man IS a woman and that everyone be required to lie by force of law, and that children be 'treated' without parental consent and that and real women be forced to expose themselves to men who claim to be women and to recieve women's benefits and play in their sports etc. 

 

That's a hell of a lot more than just having people define their gender. 

And people are getting sick of it, 

[Scott75]

On 12/15/2024 at 3:03 PM, Deluge said:

On 12/15/2024 at 2:41 AM, Scott75 said:

The issue I was discussing with CdnFox was about his lack of control when it came to insulting people he disagrees with. I'm hardly the only person to point out his flame baiting posts. Radiorum made a good post on some of his many flame baiting remarks in post #502 in this thread. Michael Hardner alluded to CdnFox's unproductive discussion methods in post #549. The writing is really on the wall when it comes to many of CdnFox's posts.

As to your assertion that I'm "fighting for a group of people that deny their true sex", you seem to be assuming that all transgender people believe the same things. They don't. From what I've seen, most in the transgender community accept that their biological sex is not the same thing as the gender they associate with, which is why they are transgender instead of cisgender.

The insults come out AFTER deceptiveness. I insult people all the time, and it's almost always because the other person is lying or is perpetuating a lie.

 

For starters, as I've told people in the past, there's a big difference between someone saying something that's not true and someone saying something they -know- isn't true. Insulting people because they're saying something that isn't true is the wrong way to go about showing them the error of their ways. The most likely result of insults and other flame bait material is for the entire conversation to devolve into a flame war.

On 12/15/2024 at 3:03 PM, Deluge said:

You're supporting the trans agenda, and that's wrong.

As I've said in the past, there is no common "trans agenda". There are transgender people, who have different ideas as to how the world should be, just like there are cisgender people who have different ideas as to how the world should be. I'm actually in the latter category.

On 12/15/2024 at 3:03 PM, Deluge said:

If you want to play dress up and act like the opposite sex, then knock yourself out. Just keep that shit in your homes, or on private property.  

You seem to be equating cross dressers with transgender people. While there was certainly a great deal of overlap back when transgender wasn't a well known term, they've since gone their separate ways for the most part, at least in places like the U.S. Learned a great deal of this from a Wikipedia article I read just now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism

In any case, it -seems- that you have an issue with transgender -and- cross dressers being able to dress the way they like in public. Seems like a classic case of transphobia. In case you're not aware of the term, Wikipedia has a helpful article on the subject. Here's the introduction:

**

Transphobia consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence or anger towards people who do not conform to social gender roles.^[1][2] Transphobia is a type of prejudice and discrimination, similar to racism, sexism, or ableism,^[3] and it is closely associated with homophobia.^[4][5] People of color who are transgender experience discrimination above and beyond that which can be explained as a simple combination of transphobia and racism.^[6]

Transgender youth often experience a combination of abuse from family members, sexual harassment, and bullying or school violence.^[7] They are also disproportionately placed in foster care and welfare programs compared to their peers.^[8] Adult transgender people regularly encounter sexual violence, police violence, public ridicule, misgendering, or other forms of violence and harassment in their daily lives.^[9] These issues cause many trans people to feel unsafe in public. Other issues include healthcare discrimination, workplace discrimination or feeling under siege by conservative political or religious groups who oppose LGBT-rights laws.^[10] Discrimination and violence sometimes originates from people within the LGBT community^[11] or feminist movements.

As well as increased risk of violence and other threats, the stress created by transphobia causes negative mental health outcomes and lead to drug use disorders, running away from home (in minors), and suicide.

In much of the Western world, there has been a gradual establishment of policies combatting discrimination and supporting equal opportunity in all aspects of life since the 1990s. The trend is also taking shape in some developing nations. In addition, campaigns regarding the LGBT community are being spread around the world to improve social acceptance of nontraditional gender identities. The "Stop the Stigma" campaign by the UN is one such example.^[12] However, transphobic violence has been on the rise since 2021,^[13] accompanied with an increase in anti-trans discriminatory laws being enacted in many parts of the US and other countries.^[14][15]

**

Full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by Scott75

[User]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You don't just want people to be able to identify as they like.

The real absurdity here is that he only wants trans people to be able to identify as they like... for the vast majority of the rest of us normal people, we must accept being called cisgender. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Scott75 said:

 

For starters, as I've told people in the past, there's a big difference between someone saying something that's not true and someone saying something they -know- isn't true. Insulting people because they're saying something that isn't true is the wrong way to go about showing them the error of their ways. The most likely result of insults and other flame bait material is for the entire conversation to devolve into a flame war.

As I've said in th e past, there is no common "trans agenda". There are transgender people, who have different ideas as to how the world should be, just like there are cisgender people who have different ideas as to how the world should be. I'm actually in the latter category.

You seem to be equating cross dressers with transgender people. While there was certainly a great deal of overlap back when transgender wasn't a well known term, they've since gone their separate ways for the most part, at least in places like the U.S. Learned a great deal of this from a Wikipedia article I read just now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism

In any case, it -seems- that you have an issue with transgender -and- cross dressers being able to dress the way they like in public. Seems like a classic case of transphobia. In case you're not aware of the term, Wikipedia has a helpful article on the subject. Here's the introduction:

**

Transphobia consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence or anger towards people who do not conform to social gender roles.^[1][2] Transphobia is a type of prejudice and discrimination, similar to racism, sexism, or ableism,^[3] and it is closely associated with homophobia.^[4][5] People of color who are transgender experience discrimination above and beyond that which can be explained as a simple combination of transphobia and racism.^[6]

Transgender youth often experience a combination of abuse from family members, sexual harassment, and bullying or school violence.^[7] They are also disproportionately placed in foster care and welfare programs compared to their peers.^[8] Adult transgender people regularly encounter sexual violence, police violence, public ridicule, misgendering, or other forms of violence and harassment in their daily lives.^[9] These issues cause many trans people to feel unsafe in public. Other issues include healthcare discrimination, workplace discrimination or feeling under siege by conservative political or religious groups who oppose LGBT-rights laws.^[10] Discrimination and violence sometimes originates from people within the LGBT community^[11] or feminist movements.

As well as increased risk of violence and other threats, the stress created by transphobia causes negative mental health outcomes and lead to drug use disorders, running away from home (in minors), and suicide.

In much of the Western world, there has been a gradual establishment of policies combatting discrimination and supporting equal opportunity in all aspects of life since the 1990s. The trend is also taking shape in some developing nations. In addition, campaigns regarding the LGBT community are being spread around the world to improve social acceptance of nontraditional gender identities. The "Stop the Stigma" campaign by the UN is one such example.^[12] However, transphobic violence has been on the rise since 2021,^[13] accompanied with an increase in anti-trans discriminatory laws being enacted in many parts of the US and other countries.^[14][15]

**

Full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

 

Blah blah blah lie lie lie. 

All you have is dishonesty disrespect lies and invasion. You can't address his points so you simply go with he's transphobic.

Sounds more like your heterophobic. you haven't come up with a single actual rebuttal to anything, you just deflect and avoid the issues. I think that says all we need to know about your side of the debate