Sinwar Dead!

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure they can given the biggest change since biblical times - secular jurisprudence.

Interestingly enough and despite the talk about colonialism some First Nations look at the creation of Israel based on the several thousand year old biblical history as the gold standard for land claims.

These are red herrings.  You stated we should keep to living memory.  Your argument is that after the Arabs whose homes they left from the 1947-48 war are dead then Arabs don't have any more land/property claims in Israel proper and that indigenous people in Canada can't make land claims based on things that happened prior to "living memory" (with signed treaties being an exception?)

Quote

And resign themselves to either permanently subjugating Palestinians or wiping them from the face of the planet?

Yes this is the argument you're making.

Quote

You're saying international law authorised things like the Deir Yassin Massacre? It's no wonder Arab countries felt compelled to try and stop this disaster from unfolding and spreading.

No, international law via UN General Assembly vote created the 1947 UN Partition Plan as a compromise to the situation in British Mandate Palestine.  Muslims there didn't like the decision so they started violence.  After this started, a of couple of Zionist paramilitary groups also caused violence as you stated.  I never stated that Zionists or Israel have always followed international law.  But you only mention the times Israel and Zionist groups break the law and never seem to mentioned when Muslims do.

The UN Partition Plan created a reasonable compromise and a 2-state solution and gave Muslim Arabs there tons of land including everything surrounding Jerusalem, but they still rejected it.  Arab leadership were unwilling to accept any plan that resulted in Israeli state.  Palestinians will never get this much land in any potential 2-state deal going forward.  The public land in black was owned by the British via the mandate with most of it being arid desert and/or desert mountains/hills and therefore unused.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[marcus]

Killing Sinwar is not going to kill the resistance to the 75+ years of occupation of Palestine.

There will be other resistance fighters who will come along.

Many of them the families of the over 15,000 children that have been murdered by Israel. A rogue state that has 0 respect for international law and human decency.

The good news out of all of this is that Israel will implode. 

[User]

3 hours ago, marcus said:

There will be other resistance fighters who will come along.

And if they keep hiding behind women and children, looks like their cowardly actions will get more of their own people killed. 

 

[marcus]

11 hours ago, User said:

And if they keep hiding behind women and children, looks like their cowardly actions will get more of their own people killed. 

 

You think the resistant fighters in the Jewish ghettos in Poland created a military base and airbase to fight against the German military?

Why are you arguing such a stupid scenario?

Oh I know, you want to justify child killing.

When you have decades of occupation and land annexation, there will be resistance.

 

[marcus]

16 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 

The UN Partition Plan created a reasonable compromise and a 2-state solution 

According to you it was reasonable to go into an area, split it into 60/40, and say take it or leave it.

No native population would agree to this.

[User]

6 minutes ago, marcus said:

You think the resistant fighters in the Jewish ghettos in Poland created a military base and airbase to fight against the German military?

Yeah, there is plenty of space in Gaza from which to fight from, and Israel left Gaza almost 20 years ago. They were not coming into Gaza to systematically take Palestinians to trains to go exterminate them, where those Palestinians were tightly packed into dense urban neighborhoods and had no place to go other than to resist from where they were. 

The fact that you are trying to compare these things is evidence of what a depraved, ignorant person you are who will do and say anything to try to justify the terrorism from Hamas. 

11 minutes ago, marcus said:

Why are you arguing such a stupid scenario?

This is your absurdly ignorant scenario. 

11 minutes ago, marcus said:

Oh I know, you want to justify child killing.

Israel does not set out to kill children; they die tragically because the tactics of Hamas and Hezbollah endanger them. 

12 minutes ago, marcus said:

When you have decades of occupation and land annexation, there will be resistance.

Gaza was left to their own devices for almost 20 years. They chose to squander their aid to build tunnels under their kids instead of building infrastructure to make life better for them. They chose to squander their aid and $$$ on rockets hidden among their children, instead of infrastructure to make life better for them. 

[marcus]

37 minutes ago, User said:

Yeah, there is plenty of space in Gaza from which to fight from, and Israel left Gaza almost 20 years ago. They were not coming into Gaza to systematically take Palestinians to trains to go exterminate them, where those Palestinians were tightly packed into dense urban neighborhoods and had no place to go other than to resist from where they were. 

The fact that you are trying to compare these things is evidence of what a depraved, ignorant person you are who will do and say anything to try to justify the terrorism from Hamas. 

This is your absurdly ignorant scenario. 

Israel does not set out to kill children; they die tragically because the tactics of Hamas and Hezbollah endanger them. 

Gaza was left to their own devices for almost 20 years. They chose to squander their aid to build tunnels under their kids instead of building infrastructure to make life better for them. They chose to squander their aid and $$$ on rockets hidden among their children, instead of infrastructure to make life better for them. 

Heh.

"Left to their own device"

"Israel does not set out to kill"

"Plenty of space.."

The question is whether I should use my time to correct every single error in your explanation.

Obviously there is no point in doing that.

You are not here to learn or have a proper debate. You are here to push for and justify a racist rogue state that has killed over 20,000 children in a year.

This doesn't mean that I won't, from time to time, remind you that you are a racist POS.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2024 by marcus

[User]

2 minutes ago, marcus said:

You are not here to learn or have a proper debate.

LOL, I think your first response to me was to call me a terrorist shill. You don't have any desire for a proper debate. 

3 minutes ago, marcus said:

You are here to push for and justify a racist rogue state that has killed over 20,000 children in a year.

Lets review. Israel was minding their own business up until about a year ago when Hamas killed over 1,000 people, including women, and children, raped, tortured, and took hostages. 

Those 20,000 children dead (which is a bogus number anyhow) are the result of Israel having to fight a war against Hamas that is hiding behind those children so folks like you can then use them as cheap political fodder like this. 

You don't give a shit how many kids die, in fact, you likely want more to keep dying so you can use it for this political theater to lambast Israel to protect the Hamas terorrists further. 

6 minutes ago, marcus said:

This doesn't mean that I won't, from time to time, remind you that you are a racist POS.

Now I am a racist? ROFL

 

 

 

[marcus]

We are beyond the question of whether Israel is right or wrong.

Why even have this discussion?

Every single human rights organization, hundreds of genocide and Holocaust scholars, including Israelis, the thousands of hours of videos from Palestinians, filming their own massacres and ethnic cleansing, the hours of Tiktok footage from Israeli soldiers, have all made it quite clear.

Israel and the Zionism ideology is one of the lowest points in humanity.

We know that the bought Western politicians, or the puppets they have put into place in most Arab countries will not do anything to change the status quo and stop this Holocaust. 

Israel will implode. Their economy is in shambles, despite the billions of US taxpayers' money feeding their genocidal crusade. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis, not drunk with messianic thoughts and ignorance, are leaving Israel. Industries outside of the military industrial complex are cutting ties with Israel. Western civilians are no longer staying quiet about what they see. More and more Jews are speaking out against Israel and are distancing themselves from Israel.

It's just a matter of time. We are witnessing the beginning of the end of the Zionist project.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2024 by marcus

[eyeball]

18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

These are red herrings. 

Jurisprudence is definitely not a red herring. Jurisprudence is a structure - built brick by brick where bricks are facts and the wall they produce gives precedence to justice over might making right.

A lot of the colonialism that shaped the modern world occurred during a time when human rights and the rule of law based on respecting those rights were being developed and established in many of the countries doing the colonizing.

Colonizers brought that growing body of jurisprudence with them and people who'd been stripped of their rights learned how to use that jurisprudence to their own betterment. I mean, that's what our justice system is for isn't it, the betterment of the human condition? It's actually very socialist when you think about it.

People who can't stand Canada having to reconcile with First Nations often make the argument that our conquest shouldn't be treated any differently than any other conquest, subjugation or genocide that occurred all the way back to the beginning of time and that the conquered are somehow expected to just get over it.

I also can't help but notice how closely hard-boiled supporters of Israel embrace the ancient argument for respecting a Zionist land claim while at the same telling First Nations to just get over claims that practically stretch back to the last ice age.

This pall of hypocrisy hanging over these positions reek and it's clear they won't stand a chance against a well entrenched justice system based on respecting human rights.

18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You stated we should keep to living memory.  Your argument is that after the Arabs whose homes they left from the 1947-48 war are dead then Arabs don't have any more land/property claims in Israel proper and that indigenous people in Canada can't make land claims based on things that happened prior to "living memory" (with signed treaties being an exception?)

Biologically, living memory means 80 years. In a social intergenerational context however it also encompasses the memories handed down from grandparents on thru to grandkids - at the very least.

My argument isn't remotely close to what you said it is.

The pain and trauma of the UN Partition Plan, that we gave Zionists, of being violently and inhumanly displaced was shared with and remains close to the hearts of survivors subsequent generations.  To dismiss this and expect them to just get over it flies in the face of human nature.  What I don't understand is the inhuman nature of people who insist on denying Palestinians the humanity they deserve too.

 

18 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The UN Partition Plan created a reasonable compromise

It created an unmitigated disaster.

[User]

2 hours ago, marcus said:

We are beyond the question of whether Israel is right or wrong.

Why even have this discussion?

Clearly, we are not beyond this question at all. 

Look at you here so desperately trying to convince folks that Hamas rape, murder, torture, and hostage taking was a good thing. 

 

[User]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

The pain and trauma of the UN Partition Plan, that we gave Zionists, of being violently and inhumanly displaced was shared with and remains close to the hearts of survivors subsequent generations.  To dismiss this and expect them to just get over it flies in the face of human nature.  What I don't understand is the inhuman nature of people who insist on denying Palestinians the humanity they deserve too.

Yet again, stop being a coward and just admit you want the destruction of Israel. 

 

[Army Guy]

18 hours ago, marcus said:

Killing Sinwar is not going to kill the resistance to the 75+ years of occupation of Palestine.

There will be other resistance fighters who will come along.

Many of them the families of the over 15,000 children that have been murdered by Israel. A rogue state that has 0 respect for international law and human decency.

The good news out of all of this is that Israel will implode. 

No this conflict is going to continue until the people of palestine come to terms that the State of Israel is here to stay , today, tommorrow, and into the future...By the looks of todays Gaza one can hardly imigine their future as most of the city is in ruins...and winter is coming...

More palestinians that take this path will of course be buried next to their forefathers....

FFS, did you not think that HAMAS already knew what the outcome of the oct 7 attacks would be....they knew what the Israelis would do before they did....War is a bit*h, and it always claims more civilians than soldiers, those facts have not changed in thousands of years....and knowing that Hamas still provoked the bear, and murdered 1200 civilians, women, children infants, and old men...you must be proud of these facts....here in Canada these are acts of cowards, nothing more...like that kid that likes to torture and kill cats....ya that kid...these are the people you cheerlead for...

Israel has the backing of the US, Muslims around the world understand that....it is a zero game for them...

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Jurisprudence is definitely not a red herring. Jurisprudence is a structure - built brick by brick where bricks are facts and the wall they produce gives precedence to justice over might making right.

A lot of the colonialism that shaped the modern world occurred during a time when human rights and the rule of law based on respecting those rights were being developed and established in many of the countries doing the colonizing.

Colonizers brought that growing body of jurisprudence with them and people who'd been stripped of their rights learned how to use that jurisprudence to their own betterment. I mean, that's what our justice system is for isn't it, the betterment of the human condition? It's actually very socialist when you think about it.

People who can't stand Canada having to reconcile with First Nations often make the argument that our conquest shouldn't be treated any differently than any other conquest, subjugation or genocide that occurred all the way back to the beginning of time and that the conquered are somehow expected to just get over it.

I also can't help but notice how closely hard-boiled supporters of Israel embrace the ancient argument for respecting a Zionist land claim while at the same telling First Nations to just get over claims that practically stretch back to the last ice age.

This pall of hypocrisy hanging over these positions reek and it's clear they won't stand a chance against a well entrenched justice system based on respecting human rights.

Biologically, living memory means 80 years. In a social intergenerational context however it also encompasses the memories handed down from grandparents on thru to grandkids - at the very least.

My argument isn't remotely close to what you said it is.

I don't understand how you both want to reconcile the conquest of first nations several centuries ago with you also ignoring all land claims of Jews in Israel/Palestine.  You seem to be doing the hypocrisy you accuse others of doing.  I think first nations have claims here for land and so do non-Indigenous people, same with Arabs and Jews in the Holy Land.  Then of course you change the goalposts and conveniently pick what "living memory" means, generations of trauma or whatnot, as if European Jews didn't have that.

Would you have any problem with caucasian Canadians being kicked off certain pieces of indigenous land after a land claim went through?  With maybe some compensation?  A lot of progressives and NDP types would be ok with that.

Quote

The pain and trauma of the UN Partition Plan, that we gave Zionists, of being violently and inhumanly displaced was shared with and remains close to the hearts of survivors subsequent generations.  To dismiss this and expect them to just get over it flies in the face of human nature.  What I don't understand is the inhuman nature of people who insist on denying Palestinians the humanity they deserve too.

The UN Partition Plan didn't "violently and inhumanly" displace anyone.  The violence came when Arabs broke the law and violently rioted and Arab foreign armies broke international law by attacking Israel upon declaring themselves a state.  Then Israel broke the law by taking more land than was promised to them while defending those attacks.  The Arabs and Palestinians ignored "jurisprudence" and tried to go by "might equals right".  They set those rules and lost, then Israel went by the rules the Arabs wanted to go by and took more land by might.  What Israel did wasn't legal or arguably just, but the Arabs and Palestinians don't get to cry about them breaking international law when they themselves refuse to abide by them.  Them complaining in the UN about things like genocide and war crimes is also a joke.

The Palestinians are lucky that Israel is civilized enough not to completely destroy Gaza etc. because they sure would bomb every Jew off the map if they had the power Israel had.

The Jews want about half the portion of a small sliver of land of their indigenous territory and the Muslim Arabs get most of where they always lived plus have the rest of the middle east to live in.  My ancestors moved from another continent to Canada and "got over it", the Palestinians can too as long as they're justly compensated.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't understand how you both want to reconcile the conquest of first nations several centuries ago with you also ignoring all land claims of Jews in...blah blah blah 

/facepalm

Let's forget it then. The communication gap is just to vast.

9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The UN Partition Plan didn't "violently and inhumanly" displace anyone. 

Like I said .../facepalm

10 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

My ancestors moved from another continent to Canada and "got over it", the Palestinians can too as long as they're justly compensated.

Canada didn't let Jews move here and told them to go somewhere else.  How do you think your ancestors would have gotten over that? What makes you think you'd be over it?

The compensation will be in the gazillions.

[Moonlight Graham]

32 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Like I said .../facepalm

The UN Partition Plan was never implemented.  Why would any Arab Palestinians have needed to move anyways?  It was a border plan, not a forced relocation plan.

[ironstone]

23 hours ago, marcus said:

You are not here to learn or have a proper debate. You are here to push for and justify a racist rogue state that has killed over 20,000 children in a year.

About 20% of the population in Israel is actually Arab. Contrast that to the amount of Jews living in the neighboring Arab states.

And those Palestinian casualties you speak of are exactly what Hamas wants. Why else do they always hide in hospitals, schools and mosques?

But Sinwar made sure to protect his own wife and children didn't he? You must have seen the images from the tunnels where his well-fed wife was delicately carrying that $32,000 handbag?

[ironstone]