The Independence Movement in Quebec is Imploding on Itself

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, August1991 said:

Michael,

You have no idea.

I'm talking about this board so... I think I do.

[Legato]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm talking about this board so... I think I do.

Thought only thought he did.

[August1991]

On 10/7/2024 at 6:38 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I'm talking about this board so... I think I do.

For you: Centuries ago, it was merely the ink, paper.

For me: You have no idea.

[August1991]

Make no mistake. I am a nobody - in the broader world.

But in a small world, I am known.

[Michael Hardner]

38 minutes ago, August1991 said:

For you: Centuries ago, it was merely the ink, paper.

For me: You have no idea.

You write like a retarded ghost sometimes...

[August1991]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You write like a retarded ghost sometimes...

This forum is remarkable.

[NAME REMOVED]

On 8/25/2024 at 3:01 PM, ExFlyer said:

Quebec separatism is a many decades old issue.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/separatism

It dies down then rises up again, like a phoenix. It all depended on if and what Quebec gets from Ottawa.

 

Truth is, if the rest of Canada had been able to vote on Quebec separatism, Quebec would have been long gone LOL

I think it would be very close, if English Canada had a vote whether to keep Quebec, or set it free. I can see Atlantic Canada wanting to keep Quebec. In Ontario, I would think they would ultimately vote to keep Quebec too. However, in BC and Alberta, they could not care less.

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

I think it would be very close, if English Canada had a vote whether to keep Quebec, or set it free. I can see Atlantic Canada wanting to keep Quebec. In Ontario, I would think they would ultimately vote to keep Quebec too. However, in BC and Alberta, they could not care less.

I did a lot of business in the Maritimes. New Brunswick is very francophone but PEI, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland not so. I think they would vote Quebec out.

In Ontario, there is a lot of french along the. Ontario/Quebec border but the rest of Ontario is fed up with Quebec wants and desires and power.

[August1991]

On 10/18/2024 at 7:25 AM, ExFlyer said:

I did a lot of business in the Maritimes. New Brunswick is very francophone but PEI, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland not so. I think they would vote Quebec out.

In Ontario, there is a lot of french along the. Ontario/Quebec border but the rest of Ontario is fed up with Quebec wants and desires and power.

The north and coast of New Brunswick is Acadian - but the west and south is anglo, protestant. New Brunswick is the most f*d up province in Canada. (Manitoba is a close second.)

I reckon that Ontario should be divided in two: Sudbury/North Bay can fight over capital city of the new  province. (By rights: I would give it to Thunder Bay.)

Canada, this place of rocks and trees, the people and what we've done, will exist well after a woman or man on our money.

 

[Michael Hardner]

On 8/19/2024 at 3:31 PM, Jeffrey Weinstein said:

There is a grave and fundamental problem in Quebec Politics, if while wanting independent state it still can never remove itself from the social and economic pitfalls that plague Canada and the rest of the Western world. An  Independent Quebec, is doomed to rot at its core if the leadership does not diverge from a conventional Corporate Capitalist model that renders every state in peril. The Housing crisis is a case in point. Unless they embrace Social Democracy, they will be dooming themselves to interminable crises and failures within the Socio-Economic and Socio-Political system, creating an environment of instability, fragility and dependency on ties with Corporate Capitalist elements even from beyond its own elites. The right-wing conservative stance of the CAQ does not lend itself to the goals of the PQ or Quebec Solidaire.

Just merely creating a defacto independent state, only embeds the elites in a constant legal and constitutional quandry. The illusion will soon find its termination point. Federally, the raison d'etre for the nation of Canada may before too long be called into question.

 

Jeffrey L. Weinstein M.A. (Public Policy and Public Administration) Concordia University

I liked this post because an academic posted it. 🥰

[Moonlight Graham]

If Quebec was located on a coast, like BC or Newfoundland, they'd be gone.  QC separating would isolate the Atlantic provinces.

The Liberal party has been an anti-sovereigntist Quebec party since at least Trudeau Sr.

[eyeball]

On 8/19/2024 at 12:31 PM, Jeffrey Weinstein said:

The illusion will soon find its termination point. Federally, the raison d'etre for the nation of Canada may before too long be called into question.

One day this will be the raison d'etre for calling into question the wisdom of not being a civilized united planet.

[August1991]

On 11/30/2024 at 6:10 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

If Quebec was located on a coast, like BC or Newfoundland, they'd be gone.  QC separating would isolate the Atlantic provinces.

The Liberal party has been an anti-sovereigntist Quebec party since at least Trudeau Sr.

Perhaps.

I know Newfoundlanders, Quebecers.

They are island people.

 

[Michael Hardner]

17 hours ago, eyeball said:

One day this will be the raison d'etre for calling into question the wisdom of not being a civilized united planet.

Well, ultimately we're likely dealing with the Nietzsche observation: "God is dead and we have killed him"

What is the reason for a person, a community, a society to live without the framework of religion?

 

 

Nationalism?

People are at least as hypocritical about that as they are about religion.

Politicians sing the anthem but they know that globalism is inevitable.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Michael Hardner

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

What is the reason for a person, a community, a society to live without the framework of religion?

It beats the alternative.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Nationalism?

People are at least as hypocritical about that as they are about religion.

Politicians sing the anthem but they know that globalism is inevitable.

I think their sense of a national identity is dependent on there being other nations against which compare and contrast themselves with. That said there is a clear global consciousness that exists but it's faced with a lot of denial and rejection that is steeped in your first question.

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

1. It beats the alternative.

2. I think their sense of a national identity is dependent on there being other nations against which compare and contrast themselves with. That said there is a clear global consciousness that exists but it's faced with a lot of denial and rejection that is steeped in your first question.

1. It doesn't unless it is better than nothing.

What is it?

2. Interesting.  I think that it's odd that we don't talk about these anymore.  Maybe it's because it's obvious?  Maybe the national differences aren't as big as we think.

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. It doesn't unless it is better than nothing.

What is it?

Not living - collapse and possible extinction.

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Interesting.  I think that it's odd that we don't talk about these anymore.  Maybe it's because it's obvious?  Maybe the national differences aren't as big as we think.

Maybe when we finally come to the realization that our mutual collective interest is on the ropes we'll start talking about it more earnestly and in fuller awareness of what's at stake.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Not living - collapse and possible extinction.

Maybe when we finally come to the realization that our mutual collective interest is on the ropes we'll start talking about it more earnestly and in fuller awareness of what's at stake.

Collective consciousness is indeed under siege.  On here too.

People do believe that history is over and we achieved the End of History in the past century.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Collective consciousness is indeed under siege.  On here too.

Tribal consciousness predominates here and it's ineffectiveness is as obvious as that which nations seem to bring to the mix.

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

People do believe that history is over and we achieved the End of History in the past century.

Some religious people can't wait.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Tribal consciousness predominates here and it's ineffectiveness is as obvious as that which nations seem to bring to the mix.

Serendipity often steps in. I'm listening right now to enlightenment now! By Steven Pinker. And I mean right now, I paused it to write this post. 

 

He just mentioned the human development index, as charted by the United Nations, as the measure of a nation's life expectancy, GDP per capita and GINI index, and education level. 

Not to say that living to 100, having enough money to pursue happiness, and being maximally educated is a reason to live. But I think it beats the alternative of dying early, poor, and ignorant. 

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Serendipity often steps in. I'm listening right now to enlightenment now! By Steven Pinker. And I mean right now, I paused it to write this post.

He just mentioned the human development index, as charted by the United Nations, as the measure of a nation's life expectancy, GDP per capita and GINI index, and education level. 

It all seems to late. I realize how pessimistic this sounds but don't forget I also maintain hope in the 1st step in the 12 step approach to enlightenment.

Experiencing the pain of hitting rock bottom is the only way forward I'm afraid. Appreciation for what we had can only be realized by losing it.

[Michael Hardner]

44 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Experiencing the pain of hitting rock bottom is the only way forward I'm afraid. Appreciation for what we had can only be realized by losing it.

I feel like we have lost it. Community, serenity, humility. These may be the opposites of health, wealth, wisdom. And we don't have them.  

Maybe we are Rock bottom now.

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I feel like we have lost it. Community, serenity, humility. These may be the opposites of health, wealth, wisdom. And we don't have them.  

Maybe we are Rock bottom now.

The sooner we hit the sooner we can start recovering.

The sooner the better if we hope to retain enough natural capital to recover with.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The sooner we hit the sooner we can start recovering.

The sooner the better if we hope to retain enough natural capital to recover with.

I think we have to rebuild the common discussion space first. Otherwise we won't know if we're getting better.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think we have to rebuild the common discussion space first. Otherwise we won't know if we're getting better.

We can restart around campfires and take turns with the talking stick.

And no, not as a weapon.