How do we keep Social Conservatism (Fascism) out of Canada?

[CrazyCanuck89]

On 7/6/2024 at 9:20 PM, Zeitgeist said:

How does one make the stupid leap of logic that social conservatives are fascists?

Social Conservatism is all about control, just like fascism.  It usually involves one race and or religion.  Hitler was very much a fascist, just like Mussolini.

[CrazyCanuck89]

13 hours ago, Five of swords said:

National socialists did not have an ideology about the superiority of their race.

Hitler wasn't a socialist dipshit.  A socialist wouldn't kill other socialists.  He believed in capitalism and ordered the death of anyone who wasn't; straight, white and Christian.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Hitler wasn't a socialist dipshit.  A socialist wouldn't kill other socialists.  He believed in capitalism and ordered the death of anyone who wasn't; straight, white and Christian.

The election that put him into power was  Nazis VS Socialist.

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Hitler wasn't a socialist dipshit.  A socialist wouldn't kill other socialists.  He believed in capitalism and ordered the death of anyone who wasn't; straight, white and Christian.

Hitler was absolutely a socialist.  And btw - stalin also orderd the deaths of non whites, gays and various religious groups. 

There are many models of socialism that believe in the private market - but then control it very strictly and utilize it to further the goals of 'society' (socialist.. see how that works?  )  It's reeferred to as 'market socialism' and an example is the current 'democratic socialism' we see in europe. 

Hitler hated socialists who believed in the state ownership of all commerce or industry. And the communists, communism just being another flavour of state owned socialism.

He believed that there should be a capitalist style market STRICTLY controlled by the state to provide for the state's best interest, and he believed that interest to be teh expansion of the state by war.  He was very direct about all of this. 

And socialists kill other socialists all the time btw. 

So there you go. 

 

 

[Five of swords]

1 hour ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Hitler wasn't a socialist dipshit.  A socialist wouldn't kill other socialists.  He believed in capitalism and ordered the death of anyone who wasn't; straight, white and Christian.

Socialists kill other socialists all the time. Hitler was socialist.

58 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The election that put him into power was  Nazis VS Socialist.

Uh no. There were dozens of parties

[Five of swords]

48 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Hitler was absolutely a socialist.  And btw - stalin also orderd the deaths of non whites, gays and various religious groups. 

There are many models of socialism that believe in the private market - but then control it very strictly and utilize it to further the goals of 'society' (socialist.. see how that works?  )  It's reeferred to as 'market socialism' and an example is the current 'democratic socialism' we see in europe. 

Hitler hated socialists who believed in the state ownership of all commerce or industry. And the communists, communism just being another flavour of state owned socialism.

He believed that there should be a capitalist style market STRICTLY controlled by the state to provide for the state's best interest, and he believed that interest to be teh expansion of the state by war.  He was very direct about all of this. 

And socialists kill other socialists all the time btw. 

So there you go. 

 

 

Hitler did not like capitism either. He wanted all major business to ultimately be under state control. He had more tolerance for industry than finance. He was very interested in reducing global trade to a minimum.

[Five of swords]

1 hour ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Social Conservatism is all about control, just like fascism.  It usually involves one race and or religion.  Hitler was very much a fascist, just like Mussolini.

Control is basically the whole point of government. Civilization, even.

[Five of swords]

On 7/5/2024 at 10:30 AM, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Not unsubstantiated at all.  Christian Nationalists are using the same playback as the Third Reich.

1. Convince people of a mythical past.  Remember when their were no homeless in Canada?  That is an example of a mythical.  Something that has never happened.

2. Distrust in the media.  Don't listen to CBC, CTV and Global.  Listen to our right wing propaganda, we have no evidence but trust us.

3. If you can convince one group of people that they're better than another group, they won't notice you stealing their wallet.  We see this with the rights attack on immigrants, LGBT, drug addicts, etc.

1) the past the third Reich was recalling was not mythical at all. In fact it was in the living memory of most germans.

 

2) until the nsdap acquired power they had no control over what media people listened to.

 

3) national socialists never suggested anyone was 'better'. Most if them would say that is a childish concern. What they focused on was the idea that Germans should be sovereign over Germany and that at that time they were not.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Five of swords

[blackbird]

15 hours ago, Five of swords said:

National socialists did not have an ideology about the superiority of their race.

Of course they did.  The Nazis believed their Aryan race was superior.  This information if widespread.  What are you talking about?

quote

The Nazi Party of Germany adopted and developed several pseudoscientific racial classifications as part of its ideology (Nazism) in order to justify the genocide of groups of people which it deemed racially inferior. The Nazis considered the putative "Aryan race" a superior "master race", and they considered Jews, mixed-race people, Slavs (specifically groups such as Poles or Russians), Romani, Africans, and certain other ethnicities racially inferior "sub-humans", whose members were only suitable for slave labor and extermination. These beliefs stemmed from a mixture of historical race concepts, 19th-century anthropology, scientific racism, and anti-Semitism, especially racial anti-Semitism. The term "Aryan" generally originated during the discourses about the use of the term Volk (the people constitute a lineage group whose members share a territory, a language, and a culture).^{[1]   unquote}

Nazi racial theories - Wikipedia

[Five of swords]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Of course they did.  The Nazis believed their Aryan race was superior.  This information if widespread.  What are you talking about?

quote

The Nazi Party of Germany adopted and developed several pseudoscientific racial classifications as part of its ideology (Nazism) in order to justify the genocide of groups of people which it deemed racially inferior. The Nazis considered the putative "Aryan race" a superior "master race", and they considered Jews, mixed-race people, Slavs (specifically groups such as Poles or Russians), Romani, Africans, and certain other ethnicities racially inferior "sub-humans", whose members were only suitable for slave labor and extermination. These beliefs stemmed from a mixture of historical race concepts, 19th-century anthropology, scientific racism, and anti-Semitism, especially racial anti-Semitism. The term "Aryan" generally originated during the discourses about the use of the term Volk (the people constitute a lineage group whose members share a territory, a language, and a culture).^{[1]   unquote}

Nazi racial theories - Wikipedia

Dude...this is Wikipedia and this is the official myth of the current day usa. This is about as useful as asking Stalin about what capitalists believe, lol. Try citing anything from any of the nsdap leadership...it doesn't exist 

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

The election that put him into power was  Nazis VS Socialist.

actually, the 1933 election in Wiemar Germany was a three way split

of the 39 million votes cast

the NSDAP won 17 million votes

the Communists & Social Democrats won 11 million votes combined

then a slew of centre-right Christian Democrat parties took the remaining 11 million votes

[Dougie93]

27 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Of course they did.  The Nazis believed their Aryan race was superior. 

well, what Adolf Hitler actually asserts in Mein Kampf is that life is essentially Darwinist

only the strong survive

so the Aryans would have to prove their superiority in a total war of annihilation

only that conflict could decide whom was superior, hence why he was so bent on inciting it

[Five of swords]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well, what Adolf Hitler actually asserts in Mein Kampf is that life is essentially Darwinist

only the strong survive

so the Aryans would have to prove their superiority in a total war of annihilation

only that conflict could decide whom was superior, hence why he was so bent on inciting it

Don't agree with this at all. Hitler clearly wanted to avoid war. And survival doesn't imply superior. In fact he stated explicitly that great nations will quickly go extinct when they lose their will to survive. That is pretty much a direct quote from the book. He didn't suggest it is a good thing, just that it happens

Edited July 10, 2024 by Five of swords

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

 Hitler was very much a fascist, just like Mussolini.

not actually

Hitler & Mussolini started off as bitter rivals

since Mussolini thought that Hitler was crazy, and Hitler surmised that Mussolini was weak

National Socialism is an Utopian ideology which would ultimately declare Fascists to be Untermensch

it was merely an alliance of convenience, the Axis was in fact a team of rivals whom all hated each other

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Five of swords said:

Hitler did not like capitism either. He wanted all major business to ultimately be under state control. He had more tolerance for industry than finance. He was very interested in reducing global trade to a minimum.

He didn't like free markets, but he understood the power of a market economy over a state owned economy.  A direction a lot of socialist thinkers these days have gone as well. 

[Dougie93]

the smartest Fascist of course was Franco

whom knew that Hitler was crazy, and that Mussolini was weak

thus the Spanish Falange avoids the war altogether

only to ally themselves with the victorious Americans on the far side of it

[Five of swords]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

He didn't like free markets, but he understood the power of a market economy over a state owned economy.  A direction a lot of socialist thinkers these days have gone as well. 

His main difference from marxist thought was that he rejected the 'materialist dialectic' which basically considered all history and motives to be driven fundamentally by wealth. In that paradigm, nation is an 'illusion' which distracts from the real issue, which is class warfare. Hitler instead believed classes could be inspire to collaborate and be on the same team if they were sufficiently loyal to their national identity. Basically, if nation>money. 

[Five of swords]

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

not actually

Hitler & Mussolini started off as bitter rivals

since Mussolini thought that Hitler was crazy, and Hitler surmised that Mussolini was weak

National Socialism is an Utopian ideology which would ultimately declare Fascists to be Untermensch

it was merely an alliance of convenience, the Axis was in fact a team of rivals whom all hated each other

Untermensch did not actually mean inferior, by the way. It meant a people who did not build their own independent civilization. So the bantu would not be untermensch, for example...because they did make their own thing. But Hitler would certainly say they have no high culture. Jews, meanwhile, would be untermensch because they always occupied a larger nation rather than building their own. But they certainly were not considered inferior but rather a very dangerous threat thanks to their cunning and resourcefulness.

[Dougie93]

19 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

Don't agree with this at all. Hitler clearly wanted to avoid war.

Hitler only wanted to avoid war with the British & French

so that he would have a free hand to launch an all out war of annihilation to the East, in the name of Lebensraum

[Five of swords]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Hitler only wanted to avoid war with the British & French

so that he would have a free hand to launch an all out war of annihilation to the East, in the name of Lebensraum

He wanted to colonize Ukraine so he wouldn't be dependent on other countries for oil and food. He saw firsthand the mass starvation that occurred during the blockade ending ww1, remember. It was just pragmatism...not some silly darwininan nietzsche thing.

[blackbird]

53 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

Dude...this is Wikipedia and this is the official myth of the current day usa. This is about as useful as asking Stalin about what capitalists believe, lol. Try citing anything from any of the nsdap leadership...it doesn't exist 

Anybody who doesn't believe or know the Nazis believed they were a superior race is in complete ignorance and uneducated.  I could waste time and show you references that would demonstrate it.  Racial superiority especially over the Jews was a major part of the why the Holocaust.

If you want some proof, check the history of a man called Gerhard Kittel.  His writings penned between 1937 and 1943 caused the physical death of millions of Jews and spiritual death of untold others.

Kittel was the chief architect of the so-called "racial science"  and "Christian base" for Hitler's anti-Semitism.   He established a Christian foundation for the opposition to the Jews.  He called himself "the first authority in Germany in the scientific consideration of the Jewish question.   unquote

from the book New Age Bible Versions by G. Riplinger.

 

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

Untermensch did not actually mean inferior, by the way. It meant a people who did not build their own independent civilization. So the bantu would not be untermensch, for example...because they did make their own thing. But Hitler would certainly say they have no high culture. Jews, meanwhile, would be untermensch because they always occupied a larger nation rather than building their own. But they certainly were not considered inferior but rather a very dangerous threat thanks to their cunning and resourcefulness.

well I would concede that Hitler did not mean "Underman" to be specifically racial

there were many civilizations that Hitler would have declared to be Ubermensch, even if they were not Europeans

and certainly the Bantu would probably qualify as Ubermensch

and the South African National Party allied itself with the Zulus therein

many blacks going to war in defence of Apartheid, against other sub-Saharan Communist blacks

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

 It was just pragmatism...not some silly darwininan nietzsche thing.

Mein Kampf says otherwise

Mein Kampf is a quite clearly an assertion of Nietzschean Darwinism as its defining paradigm

[Five of swords]

Just now, blackbird said:

Anybody who doesn't believe or know the Nazis believed they were a superior race is in complete ignorance and uneducated.  I could waste time and show you references that would demonstrate it.  Racial superiority especially over the Jews was a major part of the why the Holocaust.

If you want some proof, check the history of a man called Gerhard Kittel.  His writings penned between 1937 and 1943 caused the physical death of millions of Jews and spiritual death of untold others.

Kittel was the chief architect of the so-called "racial science"  and "Christian base" for Hitler's anti-Semitism.   He established a Christian foundation for the opposition to the Jews.  He called himself "the first authority in Germany in the scientific consideration of the Jewish question.   unquote

from the book New Age Bible Versions by G. Riplinger.

 

This is like some guy in 1600 insisting that anyone who doesn't know that Jesus is God is ignorant, lol. You are simply parroting American propaganda. Ironically it was always America that was deeply invested in the question of which race was 'superior', not Germany. Superiority is a fundamental part of liberalism and the striving for meritocracy within it. National socialists rejected that obsession and preferred collaboration over competition.

 

I think you are actually thinking about HS Chamberlain, who was not himself a national socialist but instead was britishand deeply full if liberal ideology. Hitler found his workamusing and poor tially useful primarilybecause the guy argued that jesus was Aryan rather than jewish...so it could perhaps be a way to fight Christian zionism. But that was the extent of its utility.

Go ahead and find anything from Hitler and goebbles which suggested that they cared at all about which race was 'superior'. They simply didn't. This is a caricature of what they actually believed that was invented during denazification.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Anybody who doesn't believe or know the Nazis believed they were a superior race

but the NSDAP never declared itself to be a race

and in fact, there was a pecking order

in that you did not have to be a pure Aryan simply to be a Nazi

you only had to pass a racial purity test to be a member of the SS