Pelosi takes responsibility for J6

[User]

3 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

How did I move the goalposts?  I acknowledged he didn't explicitly say it. 

You mocked the notion that it "had nothing to do with him" which is not any argument at play in the post of mine you responded to. 

I am glad you acknowledge it was in fact a lie to claim he directed people to invade the Capitol. 

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I just think you're being dishonest or willfully ignorant if you can't acknowledge that the Capitol Riot (or something along those lines) wasn't the intended result of the Orange Baboon's shameless lying and incitement.  

No, the people I responded to were being dishonest. 

Now, you are claiming this was what Trump intended. Where do you get that from, other than your imagination? Trump clearly told them to go march in peace. It was a peacefully rally and protest that was organized. There is ZERO evidence Trump was ever involved in anything in any way that was meant to make this a day of violence, which is why 99+% of the people who showed up had no plans to engage in violence. The vast majority of people showed up and left. The vast majority who marched to the Capitol, left peacefully. The vast majority of the folks at the Capitol who engaged in illegal activity still did so peacefully and left. 

It was only like a dozen right wing extremists who were found to have any plans for actual violence that day and they had nothing to do with any plan with Trump. Most who engaged in violence that day got caught up in a mindless mob, which I fully condemn. 

So, no, I am not being dishonest here at all. 

And if you want to talk about shameless lying and "incitement" lets hear your take on the summer of BLM violence and how much blame you lay at the feet of Democrats who did the same crap and pushed the same kind of lies to "incite" all of that violence. 

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

My point is that it doesn't make much of a difference whether he explicitly ordered, or (very transparently) implied it should be done.  Inserting "peacefully and patriotically" into his ranting served no purpose beyond covering his ass legally.  The fact that he watched the riot unfold for over three hours without saying anything should dispel any fanciful notions otherwise.  

It makes a hell of a difference if he explicitly ordered violence that day when you (or someone else) are here claiming he did. 

No, he made no such implications, see my argument above. It is either dishonest on your part or ignorance, that you claim he did nothing for 3 hours. The timeline shows otherwise. He made several different public statements/tweets while it unfolded before 3 hours. 

[User]

6 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Lol. You know who "ignored" the single instance of the word "peaceful"? The MAGA mob.

No, they didn't. The vast majority showed up and left peacefully that day. 

As you guys love to say about all the BLM protests and violence, the vast majority were peaceful! 

7 minutes ago, Hodad said:

I appreciate your active imagination, but there is no version of reality in which Trump didn't knowingly cause this. The behind-the-scenes is just one long sequence of his insiders begging him to call it off or calm it down somehow, but he was enjoying the moment, so he let it drag on. 

I present factual things he actually said. It is you are the one imagining he meant something more. Clearly the vast majority of folks that day didn't get that hidden message. 

It is you who imagines Trump knowingly caused this. 

Trump had no power to let it go on or not, he was not in charge of security that day. If Trump had his way, there would have been vastly more National Guard on site to keep the peace. But Democrats didn't like that when he had them there for the BLM riots. 

[Fluffypants]

13 minutes ago, Hodad said:

To be fair, he did say something. Right in the middle of the attack he decided to throw more gasoline on the fire. While the "Hang Mike Pence" crowd was hunting the Vice President, Trump posted:

"Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!"

I mean, while a mob was rampaging through the capitol calling for Pence's death, Trump literally told the mob it was all Pence's fault. "Will no one rid me of this turbulent Pence?"

Sure ok, because I know when I am rioting I am checking the twitter feed.

[User]

13 minutes ago, Hodad said:

To be fair, he did say something. Right in the middle of the attack he decided to throw more gasoline on the fire. While the "Hang Mike Pence" crowd was hunting the Vice President, Trump posted:

Wow, you think Trump had a live feed inside the Capitol that day, and could hear them saying "Hang Mike Pence" when he tweeted that?

He tweeted this about 15 minutes later:

"Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"

Maybe... just maybe you are dishonestly framing things that happened that day. Hmmmm. Just maybe. 

[Moonbox]

16 minutes ago, User said:

Now, you are claiming this was what Trump intended. Where do you get that from, other than your imagination?

He lied about the election being stolen, that his apes were having their democracy stolen from them and that they had to march on the capitol and fight for it is where I "got that from".  The fact that he watched it all unfold silently for three hours without saying anything seals the deal.  

"*Disclaimer - Peacefully and Patriotically*"

Doesn't magically balance everything out in the wash.  That's just him covering his ass.  

25 minutes ago, User said:

It was only like a dozen right wing extremists who were found to have any plans for actual violence that day and they had nothing to do with any plan with Trump. Most who engaged in violence that day got caught up in a mindless mob, which I fully condemn. 

Fair enough, but without Trump's shameless lying and inflammatory bullshitting, none of this would have happened in the first place.  The question you need to answer is why did he just sit there watching for three hours, if they weren't doing exactly what he was hoping they'd do?   🤔

[User]

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

He lied about the election being stolen, that his apes were having their democracy stolen from them and that they had to march on the capitol and fight for it is where I "got that from".  The fact that he watched it all unfold silently for three hours without saying anything seals the deal.  

"*Disclaimer - Peacefully and Patriotically*"

Doesn't magically balance everything out in the wash.  That's just him covering his ass.  

Again, are you lying or just ignorant about the timeline that day? He did not just watch for 3 hours. 

And nothing you said here shows Trump intended for this to happen. That is your twisted speculation. 

Magically cover him? I am just telling you what he explicitly said. You choose to ignore it because it is inconvenient to your bogus argument. 

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Fair enough, but without Trump's shameless lying and inflammatory bullshitting, none of this would have happened in the first place.  The question you need to answer is why did he just sit there watching for three hours, if they weren't doing exactly what he was hoping they'd do?

Well, without Columbus sailing the Oceans like he did... none of this may have ever happened. So what? If Democrats had not lied with their inflammatory bullshitting the summer of BLM violence would not have happened. 

No, I do not need to answer your question, because it is based on ignorance or a lie on your part. He did not just sit there for 3 hours. I already told you this. So, why are you ignoring that? 

 

Edited June 13 by User

[Deluge]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Nope, he just ranted and raved, told them the election was stolen, that they needed to fight and that their democracy was being taken away from them when the reality was that he'd just lost and he's too much of a fragile narcissist to admit it.  

What happened at the Capitol had nothing to do with him...totally...for sure...😑

He didn't "tell" us anything about the election. He just VERBALIZED what we already knew - that the election was stolen. 

Hardened cultists are the only ones who back Joe Biden, and now Americans are waking up to the bullshit trials, too. 

 

[gatomontes99]

D.C. National Guard chief: Pentagon took 3 hours to greenlight troops during Capitol assault One of the military leaders who advised against deploying troops was Lt. Gen. Charles Flynn, the brother of ex-Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn, the Guard chief said.

Weird how the truth never favors the left.

 

It should also be noted that this same guy testified that this was the first time he was ever ordered to get permission to respond to a threat.

Why would they do that? What was the point? Flynn should tell us what his thinking was.

Edited June 13 by gatomontes99

[Rebound]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

It's weird how there are so many long-published lies by the Dems being exposed this week. 

First Politico admits to Joe's laundry list of lies about his knowledge of Hunter's business dealings, now Pelosi is admitting that Trump did free up the National Guard for the capitol and she refused the offer.

 

I think that there were just a lot of lies and corruption that were festering within the party and they feel like they can come clean while everyone is distracted by 34 kangaroo convictions. 

Politico did no such thing.  You are delusional. Or you can’t read above the third grade level. 
 

BTW, Trump is a 34-time convicted felon. He is a men actual convicted criminal. 

Edited June 13 by Rebound

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, User said:

 

I present factual things he actually said. It is you are the one imagining he meant something more. Clearly the vast majority of folks that day didn't get that hidden message. 

 

Nah, in your fantasy world the early mention of the word "peaceful," overrides the bombastic calls to march down to the capitol and stop the vote certification. 

[User]

2 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Nah, in your fantasy world the early mention of the word "peaceful," overrides the bombastic calls to march down to the capitol and stop the vote certification. 

Nope, it is your fantasy that pretends "stop" somehow was a call for violence. Something the vast majority of folks clearly missed out on. 

More Democrats believe that shit than any Trump supporters did by a magnitude of a million to one. 

Appears you guys got the secret decoder rings by mistake. 

13 minutes ago, Rebound said:

BTW, Trump is a 34-time convicted felon. He is a men actual convicted criminal.

LOL, he is a one time convicted felon, it was 34 counts of doing the same thing... but you keep acting like that 34 is some kind of meaningful number LOL

And I imagine sometime later this year or next when it is overturned on appeal, you will be here celebrating the rule of law still. 

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, User said:

Wow, you think Trump had a live feed inside the Capitol that day, and could hear them saying "Hang Mike Pence" when he tweeted that?

He tweeted this about 15 minutes later:

"Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!"

Maybe... just maybe you are dishonestly framing things that happened that day. Hmmmm. Just maybe. 

He watched it on TV instead of stopping it. (Probably with a huge tub of popcorn covering his hate-boner.) Even as his family and closest advisers begged him to end it, he chose not to. 

And, as a matter of fact, Dan Scavino posted that message when Trump wouldn't call it off. That's why there's such a drastic contrast between his "Blame cowardly Mike Pence" post and the Scavino post, and the video he sent later. 

[User]

4 minutes ago, Hodad said:

He watched it on TV instead of stopping it. (Probably with a huge tub of popcorn covering his hate-boner.) Even as his family and closest advisers begged him to end it, he chose not to. 

He sent several public messages calling for peace. He was not in charge of security that day, the local police, the Capitol police... he had no magic "stop" button like he just sat there not pushing it. 

If only the Democrats cared more about security than their hate of men in uniform, there could have been more National guard that day. 

5 minutes ago, Hodad said:

And, as a matter of fact, Dan Scavino posted that message when Trump wouldn't call it off. That's why there's such a drastic contrast between his "Blame cowardly Mike Pence" post and the Scavino post, and the video he sent later. 

As a matter of fact, he posted that message at the direction of Trump. 

[Moonbox]

58 minutes ago, User said:

Again, are you lying or just ignorant about the timeline that day? He did not just watch for 3 hours. 

What was it?  2 hours and 50 minutes?  2 hours and 45 minutes?  Is that the argument you think that's worth making here?  

59 minutes ago, User said:

Magically cover him? I am just telling you what he explicitly said. You choose to ignore it because it is inconvenient to your bogus argument. 

I'm not ignoring it. I'm directly addressing it and telling you that it's a flimsy and transparent defense.  You can't go around spouting bullshit about massive voter fraud and stolen elections, telling the dumb apes that follow your every word they need to march on the capitol and fight for their democracy, and pretend that this wasn't a foreseeable consequence.  

His "peacefully and patriotically" comments was nothing but flimsy and transparent ass-covering.  

1 hour ago, User said:

Well, without Columbus sailing the Oceans like he did... none of this may have ever happened. So what?

This is like the mob boss telling his subordinates, "Boy, would I ever be grateful if someone went and beat some sense into that Vincenzo guy...legally...of course"  *wink* *nose-tap* 

When Vincenzo is found in a dumpster with his head caved in, I guess we blame that on Columbus too, right?  🙄

[User]

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

What was it?  2 hours and 50 minutes?  2 hours and 45 minutes?  Is that the argument you think that's worth making here?  

Sigh... it is simply amazing how some of you just absolutely refuse to educate yourselves. 

1:34 pm is about when police were beginning to be overwhelmed. 
2:11 pm is about when Capitol was breached
2:38 pm Trump tweets to be peaceful

That is not 3 hours, that is not 2 hours and 50 minutes, that is not 2 hours and 45 minutes. 
 

8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I'm not ignoring it. I'm directly addressing it and telling you that it's a flimsy and transparent defense.  You can't go around spouting bullshit about massive voter fraud and stolen elections, telling the dumb apes that follow your every word they need to march on the capitol and fight for their democracy, and pretend that this wasn't a foreseeable consequence.  

His "peacefully and patriotically" comments was nothing but flimsy and transparent ass-covering.  

So, telling you the facts of what he said, is a flimsy defense?

Now you are shifting the goalposts again to saying this should have been a foreseeable consequence. 

OK, so why didn't Pelosi and the Capital police take it more seriously? They heard all this. They knew the rhetoric being spewed. Yet, they didn't do anything more to ensure the Capitol was secured that day. 

So much for this all being so foreseeable. 

 

11 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

This is like the mob boss telling his subordinates, "Boy, would I ever be grateful if someone went and beat some sense into that Vincenzo guy...legally...of course"  *wink* *nose-tap* 

When Vincenzo is found in a dumpster with his head caved in, I guess we blame that on Columbus too, right?  🙄

Except... there was no "beat some sense" comments nor any *wink* nor any "nose-tap*

These are all your fanciful creations. 

Again, do you blame Democrats for all the violence from the BLM riots like this?

[Rebound]

40 minutes ago, User said:

Nope, it is your fantasy that pretends "stop" somehow was a call for violence. Something the vast majority of folks clearly missed out on. 

More Democrats believe that shit than any Trump supporters did by a magnitude of a million to one. 

Appears you guys got the secret decoder rings by mistake. 

LOL, he is a one time convicted felon, it was 34 counts of doing the same thing... but you keep acting like that 34 is some kind of meaningful number LOL

And I imagine sometime later this year or next when it is overturned on appeal, you will be here celebrating the rule of law still. 

Nope. 34 separate crimes. We don’t have double-jeopardy in the United States. If you murder 34 people in a shooting spree, it’s not one crime, it’s 34.

Edited June 13 by Rebound

[User]

4 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Nope. 34 separate crimes. We don’t have double-jeopardy in the United States. If you murder 34 people in a shooting spree, it’s not one crime, it’s 34.

Do you not get this?

He owed someone X dollars and paid them in 34 installments. And you are here cheering that on as if the 34 means something special. 

It is a joke. 

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, Fluffypants said:

Sure ok, because I know when I am rioting I am checking the twitter feed.

That's how their messiah communicates. Yes, they were paying attention. 

31 minutes ago, User said:

He sent several public messages calling for peace. He was not in charge of security that day, the local police, the Capitol police... he had no magic "stop" button like he just sat there not pushing it. 

If only the Democrats cared more about security than their hate of men in uniform, there could have been more National guard that day. 

As a matter of fact, he posted that message at the direction of Trump. 

He absolutely could have a) not started it and b) stopped it with a video like the one that finally sent the mob packing. Instead he just enjoyed the show while everyone in his orbit begged him to end it. Because he's just that farking narcissistic. People fighting and dying for him is the ultimate high for a person like that. 

[User]

1 minute ago, Hodad said:

He absolutely could have a) not started it and b) stopped it with a video like the one that finally sent the mob packing. Instead he just enjoyed the show while everyone in his orbit begged him to end it. Because he's just that farking narcissistic. People fighting and dying for him is the ultimate high for a person like that. 

He did not start it. He attended a peaceful rally and left. The riot was still well underway after he sent that video. You guys pretend like Trump had some control over a rioting mob, when he did not. They were a rioting mob. People in that situation do not usually listen to much reason... or they would not be in a rioting mob to begin with. 

 

 

[Hodad]

Just now, User said:

He did not start it. He attended a peaceful rally and left. The riot was still well underway after he sent that video. You guys pretend like Trump had some control over a rioting mob, when he did not. They were a rioting mob. People in that situation do not usually listen to much reason... or they would not be in a rioting mob to begin with. 

 

 

You may not understand this from within the MAGA infobubble, but what you're saying here is ridiculous. Like, it's so silly I can't even tell if you genuinely believe it, but I can assure you that the rest of the world doesn't. The courts certainly don't. History certainly won't. This is another day that will live in infamy and future generations will absolutely read in their history textbooks about the time a US President set an angry mob upon the legislative branch as part of a plot to seize power after losing an election. Full stop.  

 

[User]

3 minutes ago, Hodad said:

You may not understand this from within the MAGA infobubble, but what you're saying here is ridiculous. Like, it's so silly I can't even tell if you genuinely believe it, but I can assure you that the rest of the world doesn't. The courts certainly don't. History certainly won't. This is another day that will live in infamy and future generations will absolutely read in their history textbooks about the time a US President set an angry mob upon the legislative branch as part of a plot to seize power after losing an election. Full stop.  

Oh, I see now. I disagree with your nonsense and present well-thought-out and articulate rebuttals to it, so I must be in a MAGA info-bubble! 

It seems you are more in your own left-wing bubble here than I am. 

The fact that this day was awful or will be one of historical proportions was not the debate. 

 

 

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, User said:

Do you not get this?

He owed someone X dollars and paid them in 34 installments. And you are here cheering that on as if the 34 means something special. 

It is a joke. 

You might think that the laws of the United States are a joke, but I do not. 

[User]

5 minutes ago, Rebound said:

You might think that the laws of the United States are a joke, but I do not. 

No, you cheering on the "34" is a joke. 

And I bet you have a lot to say about the laws of the land when it suits you. 

[Hodad]

2 hours ago, User said:

Oh, I see now. I disagree with your nonsense and present well-thought-out and articulate rebuttals to it, so I must be in a MAGA info-bubble! 

It seems you are more in your own left-wing bubble here than I am. 

The fact that this day was awful or will be one of historical proportions was not the debate. 

 

 

Sure. "Well thought out." Like the idea that saying peaceful once in an hour of bombast and provocation means Trump didn't incite the attack. Because, wishful thinking. 🙄

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, User said:

Sigh... it is simply amazing how some of you just absolutely refuse to educate yourselves. 

I think it's more amazing how selectively you've summarized the timeline and details.  😑

Let me fill in the blanks for you:

1 hour ago, User said:

12:53 pm rioters overran the building Capitol building  perimeter.  

1:34 pm is about when police were beginning to be overwhelmed. 
2:11 pm is about when Capitol (building) was breached

2:24 Trump tweets:

Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!

2:38 pm Trump tweets to be peaceful (a hollow, worthless gesture, considering 15 minutes earlier he'd fanned the flames, and he said nothing about dispersing and going home, which is what his family, colleagues, subdordinates and aides were begging him to do)

4:17 pm Trump finally told them to go home.  

That is not 3 hours, that is not 2 hours and 50 minutes, that is not 2 hours and 45 minutes. 

You're right.  It was over 3 hours.  👍