‘Summer of discontent’ coming over public service in-office order: unions (trudeau chooses this hill to die on)

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Sigh. But i did. The statcan page specifically talks about productivity and the other pages reference research/studies AND support me. 

It provided zero data on productivity - literally zero. 

*sigh* indeed.  🙄

 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Sigh. But i did. The statcan page specifically talks about productivity and the other pages reference research/studies AND support me. 

The statscan page has literally no data on productivity - nothing whatsoever.  Thanks for highlighting your bullshit in first sentence of what will assuredly be another bloviating ramble that won't be worth reading.   I'll refer you to my previous response:

 

Edited May 13, 2024 by Moonbox

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The statscan page has literally no data on productivity - nothing whatsoever.  Thanks for highlighting your bullshit in first sentence of what will assuredly be another bloviating ramble that won't be worth reading.  

 

  No data on productivity huh.  Nothing whatsoever.  Sigh.  I guess i shouldn't be surprised you don't know what data looks like.

The real question is why you insist on looking like such an !diot. 

From the statcan page. 

During the COVID-19 pandemic, the vast majority of new teleworkers reported being at least as productive at home as they were in their usual place of work

• In February 2021, 90% of new teleworkers—employees who usually worked outside the home before the COVID-19 pandemic but worked most of their hours at home during the LFS reference week—reported accomplishing at least as much work per hour at home as they did in the office.

Pssst!!!! That's data!!!!  

I swear to god - you get dumber and dumber each time we talk. 

 

[Moonbox]

18 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

• In February 2021, 90% of new teleworkers—employees who usually worked outside the home before the COVID-19 pandemic but worked most of their hours at home during the LFS reference week—reported accomplishing at least as much work per hour at home as they did in the office.

Pssst!!!! That's data!!!!  

Oh boy!  Employees self-reporting that "Oh yes, definitely.  I get way more work done in my pyjamas at home when my boss can't keep an eye on what I'm doing."  

It's almost like we've already been over this:

So here we are, come full-circle, with you regurgitating exactly what I'd originally criticized, and still offering no actual  data on productivity.  😆

30 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I swear to god - you get dumber and dumber each time we talk. 

He says, after making a fool out of himself once again.  

[herbie]

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Oh boy!  Employees self-reporting that "Oh yes, definitely.  I get way more work done in my pyjamas at home when my boss can't keep an eye on what I'm doing."  

So now that you've realized you were completely full of shit and got called on it you're going to try to call the 'non existiant' data into question. 

So -  what about the ones that say that they DIDN'T find it more productive?  Just liars? Self destructive?

Fact is you have absolutely zero evidence or even reason to believe that people are deliberately reporting falsely other than you don't like their answers.  Most people answer surveys like that honestly - that's why they bother doing them. And with THAT MANY reporting better results, there's zero reason to believe that they're all lying. 

AND - it's in keeping with the other data i provided from other sources which corroborate this. 

ANd they often report they "work" longer hours and yet they're happier. That's because when you lose the hour prep time and hour long commute round trip, putting an extra hour of work in still seems like you're working less. 

So. Every scrap of useable data suggests that they are as efficient or more so and its' getting better.  With the right tech and systems in place it's  a more efficient way to work for most people (not all) and it's easy to see why. 

NOW - on top of that there's the environmental benefits, the ability to expand home building outside of the cramped cores, better quality of life, happier people etc. 

And your OWN LINKS say that buisness is leaning into it because it's a good idea and with the right tech productivity improves. 

 

Lets do our usual recap of where you went wrong. 
There IS a great deal of data to suggest people are as productive or more 

There is NOT 'newer" data that shows differently, your links were actually older, 

There IS data in the statcan report as well as all the other info posted and it all points to as or more productive workers

And you have zero evidence or reason to doubt the results of workers being asked other than you don't like their answers. 

Kid - you really are too stupid for these conversations. Of all the things you could have argued,  claiming there's no data in a source and then clearly stating there is but you don't like it is just dense beyond belief. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Oh boy!  Employees self-reporting that "Oh yes, definitely.  I get way more work done in my pyjamas at home when my boss can't keep an eye on what I'm doing."  

It's almost like we've already been over this:

So here we are, come full-circle, with you regurgitating exactly what I'd originally criticized, and still offering no actual  data on productivity.  😆

He says, after making a fool out of himself once again.  

Oh - and just for fun, here's some more 'data that isn't data" for you   LOL!

I'm sure you'll pretend this doesn't exist either. Its your way. 

Fully Remote Companies are the Most Productive, Report Finds (tech.co)

And this research paper as well showing that in the specific example in question there was  a significant increase in productivity. 

harrington_jmp_working_remotely.pdf (harvard.edu)

Sorry kid - once again you just can't think your way out of a paper bag.  "THERE'S NO DATA!!!!  NONE!! EXCEPT FOR THE DATA IN YOUR LINKS!! WHICH I DON"T LIKE!!!! AND THE OTHER DATA!!!!  BUT ASIDE FROM ALL THAT DATA, THERE"S NO DATA!!!!"

Pffft      I can always count on you for a laugh  

[I am Groot]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:27 AM, ExFlyer said:

Well, there it is. The Union runs the country LOL

I live in Ottawa and am very secure in saying since the pandemic shut down, the burbs have been a traffic jamb in the burbs every day. Most workers are public service and they are all out of their offices (homes) instead of working. Shit is taking longer because there is no one working. If you want to complain about slow public service,. that is it, no one in the office.

As with much else you write, I can confidently say you're full of crap. I know several people who work for the federal government in Ottawa at different levels. They're carrying the same workload as always. The stats kept by the government confirm that productivity is actually up. They're just not wasting two hours on the journey to and from work every day.

Where do you live? I want to know what area you say has traffic jams every day. There are none where I live. 

On 5/9/2024 at 10:27 AM, ExFlyer said:

I know many, they are our neighbours, friends and kids of friends. They all love "working" from home. They turn on their computers in the morning and then do whatever they want. 

This is so much horseshit. Everyone has a workload assigned to them. They don't just do nothing. That's absurd.

On 5/9/2024 at 10:27 AM, ExFlyer said:

They do not have to pay for daycare, for transit, for parking, for work clothes, for lunch and they got a raise because... they were underpaid???

Sounds like envy to me. 

 

[I am Groot]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, ExFlyer said:

They had to hire an additional 100,000 to get the work done.

They had to hire more people to administer all the new programs dear Mr. Socks keeps implementing. You think you can announce a pricy, multi-billion dollar program without hiring reams of public servants to do all the necessary paperwork over applications, approvals, software, customer service, etc.?

[I am Groot]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:25 PM, Moonbox said:

It actually is.  Unless you can track specific, measurable outcomes (like sales, or number of calls handled or something), it's quite hard to objectively measure people in a lot of cases.  

There's tons of people doing call centre work, so you can certainly track call volume. Then if you're at the clerical level your job is to handle the daily volume of 'stuff' that is your workload. It might be customer invoicing, bill paying, procurement, HR, or whatever, but whether you're in a cubicle or at home, it's your workload and you need to get through it.

If you're a program officer/manager, then again, you have a certain program area you're responsible for. You need to take care of all the issues that pop up from day to day, and take part in a growing number of online meetings (the  higher you get, the more meetings). I have a friend who's a senior director and he's in online meetings most of the day every day. Even when he has to go to work he sets up in his office and then does the same online meetings he does at home.

Now let's talk about the office. In June he's losing his. The whole branch are moving to another building that has been 'processed', which means moved over to the new government open office system. Even as senior director he will not have a private office, or even a cubicle. It's all open air stuff and you don't get your own desk. You have to reserve a desk ahead of time on a web application. I know another person who is at the program manager level who has to do this, and then people shush her because she's always in online meetings talking. And so are other people. 

Tell me the sense in having people going to work to take part in online meetings. Especially with no offices and no overnight storage. They have to carry everything in with them including their laptops. There's none at the desks. They carry it all in and set up in the morning, then break it all down and take it home in the afternoon. So they can talk online just like they do at home.

Especially since their team might not even be in the same building. Or if they are on the same floor. Or if on the same floor not in the same area of the floor. In the meantime, people who need to concentrate can't. And confidential information that shouldn't be talked about in front of others is being talked about in front of others because there's no other way to get through the meetings and workloads.

Edited May 14, 2024 by I am Groot

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

 

Sounds like envy to me. 

 

And i do get that. Not everyone can work from home, and i'm sure some people feel that it's not fair that others get to.  Or that somehow they're getting a benefit when others aren't. 

But honestly - this is a good thing for our country if we push remote working more. If someone working for the gov't in vancouver can doing their job remotely and go in one day every week or two  then really there's no reason they can't live somewhere like merit, or kamloops or kelona etc.  Sure - you've got that 3 hour drive once every couple of weeks but so what, and now the housing pressure from Vancouver can be greatly reduced.  Even if you go in once a week, you could still live in Squamish or mission and do a 'downtown' gov't job. 

If remote working remains normalized and is developed for max efficiency and not just with gov't then that's about 33 percent of our workforce which could be moved away from the city cores, drive less, enjoy life more and be more productive and it also expands the labour pool for companies or gov't agencies hiring which helps keep unemployment in check at local levels as well. 

 

[I am Groot]

On 5/11/2024 at 9:16 AM, Nationalist said:

It's already biting me...and you...and everyone in Canada. Our bureaucracy is insanely huge and the bigger it gets, the less effective it gets.

I agree completely. We have too many public servants at all levels of government.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Lol...interesting. 

Actually the one boy is going to a boot camp for fire fighting. He goes in October. Once done, he'll be a fireman and will be able to support himself.

No offense, but firefighters are the most overpaid public sector workers in Canada. They spend much of their time sleeping, watching TV, hanging around chatting, and do so little work that they have the energy to do part-time jobs as contractors on their days off. Firefighters in Europe don't make anywhere near as much as ours. And I'd say the same for cops.

 

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

...but you didn't.  You posted a Statscan page that had zero data on productivity, a National Post article that specifically concluded against your claim, and a fluff piece from axios.com (whoever they are?).  

Remote work can be more productive for the right people, in the right situations (particularly for higher-skilled work, where individual output can be objectively measured and compensation is heavily performance-based).  

Most of the jobs in the federal public service ARE higher skilled. Aside from the cal centers anyway, and some of the lower level clerical jobs. 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

No offense, but firefighters are the most overpaid public sector workers in Canada. They spend much of their time sleeping, watching TV, hanging around chatting, and do so little work that they have the energy to do part-time jobs as contractors on their days off. Firefighters in Europe don't make anywhere near as much as ours. And I'd say the same for cops.

Good. I'm proud of his choice.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Good. I'm proud of his choice.

Well tell him that even if he's got his big rubbers on he has to watch where he points  his hose  

(a firefighter friend of mine told me that joke years ago.   I've never forgiven him. )

[ExFlyer]

13 hours ago, I am Groot said:

As with much else you write, I can confidently say you're full of crap. I know several people who work for the federal government in Ottawa at different levels. They're carrying the same workload as always. The stats kept by the government confirm that productivity is actually up. They're just not wasting two hours on the journey to and from work every day.

Where do you live? I want to know what area you say has traffic jams every day. There are none where I live. 

This is so much horseshit. Everyone has a workload assigned to them. They don't just do nothing. That's absurd.

Sounds like envy to me. 

 

I can say with my experience, of many years in the public service and living in the burbs in Ottawa, and have many family members and friends and hundreds of colleagues in the public service there was no "crap" in what I say.

I dare say to you that productivity is not up. What is up is the ability to do many more things dealing with the government online. The public service has grown more than 10% since working from home (pandemic) began. That is not more productivity, that is more people to do the same work. There are no "stats" proving productivity is up. That is union BS.

No horseshit, I see it every day.

You, wherever you are, just like to make shit up as you have no idea beyond your basement.

 

Edited May 14, 2024 by ExFlyer

[ExFlyer]

13 hours ago, I am Groot said:

They had to hire more people to administer all the new programs dear Mr. Socks keeps implementing. You think you can announce a pricy, multi-billion dollar program without hiring reams of public servants to do all the necessary paperwork over applications, approvals, software, customer service, etc.?

Now it is you that is full of BS LOL

While new programs have been implemented, more and more have become online accessible and functional.

As one person said, many public service jobs will soon become redundant into the domain of AI.

Regurgitating regulations and policy can easily be done by AI. The unions had better be aware of what they are demanding LOL

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Now it is you that is full of BS LOL

While new programs have been implemented, more and more have become online accessible and functional.

As one person said, many public service jobs will soon become redundant into the domain of AI.

Regurgitating regulations and policy can easily be done by AI. The unions had better be aware of what they are demanding LOL

Dude - you're entirely in the wrong here. 

@I am Groot  Is correct.  Justin has radically increased the size of the federal employees both in number and employees per capita and expanded many programs and added new ones within the various ministries. 

Look for yourself:

Population of the federal public service - Canada.ca

And online accessibility is not up at all. If anything overall it's down due to some major failures like the arrivecan app which wound up very negatively impacting productivity. 

Here's just a handful of some of the new initiatives and programs.  

Programs and initiatives (canada.ca)

And there is a difference between  DEPARTMENT or PROGRAM efficiency and individual worker efficiency. They are not the same. If you have a poorly organized or run department your employees can be very productive and still achieve nothing over all. Basically going nowhere fast. An example going back to arrivecan would be the individual efforts of security assisting people going up, while delays also went up due to the effect of the arrivecan app requiring them to provide customer support. 

The stats and data that the gov't has collected so far strongly indicates that individual remote worker productivity is up. Even if overall efficency of the various orgs is down. 

And we both know you're not talking to 'hundreds' of people about this. 

[Moonbox]

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So now that you've realized you were completely full of shit and got called on it you're going to try to call the 'non existiant' data into question. 

I'm saying the same thing I said from the beginning, days ago:

Surveys of employees on how productive they say they are when working remote isn't an accurate gauge of actual their productivity.  It's an indication of which work arrangement they prefer.    

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Oh - and just for fun, here's some more 'data that isn't data" for you   LOL!

I'm sure you'll pretend this doesn't exist either. Its your way. 

Fully Remote Companies are the Most Productive, Report Finds (tech.co)

You're citing a "report" by this tiny team of post-pubescent tech-bloggers:

who apparently surveyed 1000 "business leaders" on how productive they think they are, and concluded that the ones who are fully remote tended to believe they are more productive.  I can only imagine the titans of industry that responded to their survey. That's the data you're relying on?  🤣

[Moonbox]

16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Most of the jobs in the federal public service ARE higher skilled. Aside from the cal centers anyway, and some of the lower level clerical jobs. 

Higher skilled than what?  Let's not confuse post-secondary education status as "higher skilled", if that's what you mean.  Do we call the social studies post-grads working for "Social Development Canada" higher-skilled?  

[I am Groot]

8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Higher skilled than what?  Let's not confuse post-secondary education status as "higher skilled", if that's what you mean.  Do we call the social studies post-grads working for "Social Development Canada" higher-skilled?  

I use the same term as everyone else does. How would you define higher-skilled individuals? Dime a dozen coders? The point is that people have workloads and are required to complete them. If they don't, they'll have to explain why and rectify the situation.

Edited May 14, 2024 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Now it is you that is full of BS LOL

While new programs have been implemented, more and more have become online accessible and functional.

What does that matter? Do you think that means they don't require people behind the scenes to look at those applications, to handle all the queries, to take care of problems? To write and maintain the online functionality? 

Just because you can file your taxes online with online software doesn't mean CRA doesn't have to have people who look over all the things kicked out by various sorting and checking routines or to deal with the growing number of tax fraud cases, or to handle the queries, as well as the changes that can't be done online. 

 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I'm saying the same thing I said from the beginning, days ago:

Yes, you frequently stick with something wrong long after it's been proven otherwise    Nobody disputes htat.  You're arguing with yourself again  LOLOL  

I posted evidence that it was more productive.  You claimed as per above that LATER research showed that it wasn't so great. 

Except - your 'later research' said that hybrid solutions were definitely more productive AND that full time WFH was improving rapidly with better tech and that it was undoubtedly the future. 

AND... then it turned out your "later research" was actually before the stuff i posted. 

So you were wrong.  ANd yes you frequently repeat yourself when you're wrong.  For pages and pages. But that doesn't make you right. 

Quote

You're citing a "report" by this tiny team of post-pubescent tech-bloggers:

Ahh - so now the report isn't accurate becuase.... you don't like their picture. 

Did you see something serious in their methodology that was not in keeping with good practices?  No? Hmmmm. 

And the average worker is fully qualified to say if they're more productive or not.  IT's not hard to say if you're getting through more emails than before, handling more phone calls than before etc etc.  They'll know if they're more productive or not.  Seriously - are you telling me you can't say whether or not you've done more or less work on any given day?

Numerous numerous reports show that its as productive or more - and your only defense so far is that people who dont' give answers you like on surveys must be liars and that people who wear flannel shirts can't do science. 

it is more productive and as people and industries get more experienced with it and adapt the tech to it it becomes even MORE productive and if anything we should be giving tax breaks to people and businesses to encourage them to buy the tech necessary to make remote working even more productive. 

The 'but they're wearing flannel!" defense just doesn't cut it   

 

[Moonbox]

23 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I use the same term as everyone else does. How would you define higher-skilled individuals? Dime a dozen coders?

I would define them as the people who aren't easily replaceable.  Considering the near-zero vacancy for federal public service positions we've seen over the last decade, this generally doesn't apply to them.   

23 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The point is that people have workloads and are required to complete them. If they don't, they'll have to explain why and rectify the situation.

They have workloads they've negotiated via CBA through a militant public sector union, and anything but the bare minimum is wasted effort.  High performers are stifled by seniority mandates and rigid compensation, and thus the best and brightest move on.  What's left is the mediocre to bad, and it's almost statistically impossible fire the bad ones.  🤷‍♂️

It's no wonder we waste so much money on private consultants.

Edited May 14, 2024 by Moonbox

[Moonbox]

14 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I posted evidence that it was more productive.  You claimed as per above that LATER research showed that it wasn't so great. 

Yes, the later research is disputing that it's increased productivity.  By research, I don't mean the blog articles you scraped off the interwebs, or surveys of employees who want to stay working at home telling everyone how much harder they work at home.  🤡