WestCanMan Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 10 hours ago, eyeball said: It's effectiveness sucks for sure but jurisprudence will have to be part of the path to reconciliation and peace. The reason institutions like the ICC or UN fail is that so many of the brokers using them are not being honest. But at the end of a very long day there is no other way forward besides force and where might makes right...except...one look around the world should show how that's working. The ICC is just a blight on humanity. They're supposed to represent justice and international peace and they're pro-terrorism/bigotry bullies. They can literally go to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, User said: So... Hamas stays in power and keeps killing Israelis with your plan. Only so long as Hamas has a patron dedicated to maintaining it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 48 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: The ICC is just a blight on humanity. They're supposed to represent justice and international peace and they're pro-terrorism/bigotry bullies. They can literally go to hell. So fix it then. We still need international institutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 11 minutes ago, eyeball said: Only so long as Hamas has a patron dedicated to maintaining it. So... Hamas stays in power and keeps killing Israelis. That is your plan. That is what you support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 I simply do not know of a long term solution as long as both claim ownership of the land. It really does not matter who is right or wrong honestly. Neither would admit to being wrong no matter the situation. So as it stands now.. locked in a stalemate over this land with seemingly no chance of either letting up anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 21 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: I simply do not know of a long term solution as long as both claim ownership of the land. It really does not matter who is right or wrong honestly. Neither would admit to being wrong no matter the situation. So as it stands now.. locked in a stalemate over this land with seemingly no chance of either letting up anytime soon. Well, there is a truth to who owns the land and who does not own the land and your post here is entirely too vague... as if there is some kind of moral parity between Israel and Palestine going on. Hamas wants ALL of the land. It does matter who is right. As it stands now, Hamas launched one of the most horrific acts of terrorism and death upon the Jewish people in Israel since the Holocaust. They raped, tortured, murdered, and took hostage innocent women and children. They purposefully targeted them for that. The solution at this time is for Israel to eradicate Hamas and destroy any leadership/infrastructure that keeps them in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Just now, User said: Well, there is a truth to who owns the land and who does not own the land and your post here is entirely too vague... as if there is some kind of moral parity between Israel and Palestine going on. Hamas wants ALL of the land. It does matter who is right. As it stands now, Hamas launched one of the most horrific acts of terrorism and death upon the Jewish people in Israel since the Holocaust. They raped, tortured, murdered, and took hostage innocent women and children. They purposefully targeted them for that. The solution at this time is for Israel to eradicate Hamas and destroy any leadership/infrastructure that keeps them in power. Ok, so you destroy Hamas. And you think that still stop another group from forming out of Hamas' ashes? As long as there are folks who believe (rightfully or not) that Israel is the colonizer.. this war will continue. Like it or not, that is the current state of affairs. I do not have a dog in the fight so you can quit with the moral indignation. It is simply an observation of the war and why it continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 11 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: Ok, so you destroy Hamas. And you think that still stop another group from forming out of Hamas' ashes? As long as there are folks who believe (rightfully or not) that Israel is the colonizer.. this war will continue. Like it or not, that is the current state of affairs. I do not have a dog in the fight so you can quit with the moral indignation. It is simply an observation of the war and why it continues. Well, for as long as folks in the international community, like you, also continue to act like there is not a right or wrong, as if those like Hamas are right to think Israel should not exist at all... that certainly is not going to help. If people keep trying to kill Israelis, then yes, Israelis are going to keep defending themselves. That doesn't somehow mean Israel shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 (edited) 23 minutes ago, User said: Well, for as long as folks in the international community, like you, also continue to act like there is not a right or wrong, as if those like Hamas are right to think Israel should not exist at all... that certainly is not going to help. If people keep trying to kill Israelis, then yes, Israelis are going to keep defending themselves. That doesn't somehow mean Israel shouldn't. Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves. Now, repeat that so you do not like quite so stupid next time. However, they have a group that believes.. repeat believes.. that they have a right to that same land. Either you get them to believe that they are not the rightful owner or you destroy them all. The second option does not seem possible because this group could simply rise up at another time with another name or simply move to another location for a while and then come back. It is as simple as observing the temperature outside. By saying that it is 80 degrees.. I must have something against the sun, Carson City, Nevada.. somebody, something.. correct? If I was in control and was some sort of grand puppeteer, I would have the Palestinians (and therefore Hamas) get over it and start living. Yeah.. so Israel's existence offends you. Move somewhere else and live the best life that you can. Edited June 20 by impartialobserver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, eyeball said: So fix it then. We still need international institutions. Ironically it would take Hamas to do that. No thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 9 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves. Now, repeat that so you do not like quite so stupid next time. However, they have a group that believes.. repeat believes.. that they have a right to that same land. Either you get them to believe that they are not the rightful owner or you destroy them all. The second option does not seem possible because this group could simply rise up at another time with another name or simply move to another location for a while and then come back. It is as simple as observing the temperature outside. By saying that it is 80 degrees.. I must have something against the sun, Carson City, Nevada.. somebody, something.. correct? Not stupid at all, when you jump in here to say things like this: "It really does not matter who is right or wrong honestly. " Nevermind all your past comments. But, if you are now saying clearly, or at least the first I have seen it "Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves." Good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Just now, User said: Not stupid at all, when you jump in here to say things like this: "It really does not matter who is right or wrong honestly. " Nevermind all your past comments. But, if you are now saying clearly, or at least the first I have seen it "Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves." Good. The point is that this conflict will continue in perpetuity as long as there is one piece of land and two groups who BELIEVE that they are the rightful owners... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 13 hours ago, eyeball said: It's effectiveness sucks for sure but jurisprudence will have to be part of the path to reconciliation and peace. The reason institutions like the ICC or UN fail is that so many of the brokers using them are not being honest. But at the end of a very long day there is no other way forward besides force and where might makes right...except...one look around the world should show how that's working. Works great as long as you follow through and don't quit before it's over. Iraq's been pretty quiet. When was the last time Japan or Germany shot at us? Violence is the last resort when everything else has failed. But it works great, provided you apply it to its logical conclusion. The other side must be thoroughly defeated. If it isn't then it's not going to work. Anybody who says that violence doesn't solve anything should get punched in the mouth. Amusingly that would put an end to that problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 1 minute ago, impartialobserver said: The point is that this conflict will continue in perpetuity as long as there is one piece of land and two groups who BELIEVE that they are the rightful owners... Then we support Israel, who is in the right to defend themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Just now, User said: Then we support Israel, who is in the right to defend themselves. I am not sure how you can't comprehend this.. I do not care if you support Israel or not. Do you understand this simple sentence? The point is not if the battle SHOULD (again, not the point) but if it will or not. My point is that it will continue... clear enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 4 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: I am not sure how you can't comprehend this.. I do not care if you support Israel or not. Do you understand this simple sentence? The point is not if the battle SHOULD (again, not the point) but if it will or not. My point is that it will continue... clear enough? I get that and my point is that we should support Israel. You should support Israel. Clear enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Just now, User said: I get that and my point is that we should support Israel. You should support Israel. Clear enough? that is clear but I am not going to support Israel nor Hamas. Clear enough? I already stated that I have no dog in the proverbial fight. Not sure why it needs repeated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Just now, impartialobserver said: that is clear but I am not going to support Israel nor Hamas. Clear enough? I already stated that I have no dog in the proverbial fight. Not sure why it needs repeated. You already did... you are just not willing to really commit to it, for whatever reason. Remember, you said: "Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 2 minutes ago, User said: You already did... you are just not willing to really commit to it, for whatever reason. Remember, you said: "Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves." Sorry but not playing your game. I can state reality but not have an inclination. In conclusion, in 20 years.. we will have this same discussion and nothing will have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, User said: So... Hamas stays in power and keeps killing Israelis. That is your plan. That is what you support. Sure, but only until such time as you stop supporting Hamas' patrons and put them out of business. 7 minutes ago, User said: "Israel has a right to exist and therefore to defend themselves." So does Palestine. 24 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Ironically it would take Hamas to do that. No thanks. How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 20 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: Sorry but not playing your game. I can state reality but not have an inclination. In conclusion, in 20 years.. we will have this same discussion and nothing will have changed. Not a game. Yes, it will be an ongoing problem that Muslims in the Middle East will hate Jews so much that they wish for the destruction of Israel and the death of as many if not all of them. And Israel will continue to be in the right to defend themselves from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 19 minutes ago, eyeball said: Sure, but only until such time as you stop supporting Hamas' patrons and put them out of business. I fully support being more aggressive in stopping Iran funding their proxies of terror around the world. In the meantime, I also fully support destroying Hamas. It is not an either/or. 21 minutes ago, eyeball said: So does Palestine. That isn't what Hamas did or is doing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 1 minute ago, User said: Not a game. Yes, it will be an ongoing problem that Muslims in the Middle East will hate Jews so much that they wish for the destruction of Israel and the death of as many if not all of them. And Israel will continue to be in the right to defend themselves from it. See.. you are getting it. This conflict has no light at the end of the tunnel. If I was a muslim living in Gaza, West Bank, etc... I would just move elsewhere and leave the fighting to someone else. But I know that they do not see it as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 9 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: See.. you are getting it. This conflict has no light at the end of the tunnel. If I was a muslim living in Gaza, West Bank, etc... I would just move elsewhere and leave the fighting to someone else. But I know that they do not see it as such. Well, I think there is some light as Israel has been at more peace with the West Bank than Gaza in the last 20 years. After they purge Hamas, and start taking back the schools, they can start to erase the generational brainwashing Hamas has done to children and start putting a larger dent in this violence in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 50 minutes ago, User said: Well, I think there is some light as Israel has been at more peace with the West Bank than Gaza in the last 20 years. After they purge Hamas, and start taking back the schools, they can start to erase the generational brainwashing Hamas has done to children and start putting a larger dent in this violence in the long run. You have greater faith in humanity than I do. I see this as lather, rinse, repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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