Pro-Hamas Rallies in Canada

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Well, given the Palestinians joyfully murdered, tortured and raped women and children with gopros strapped to their heads I don't think we have any doubt there. 

They didn't leave a lot of room for doubt   

[CdnFox]

Just now, eyeball said:

Except for the likelihood the joyfulness was due to Iranians that participated with the express purpose of inflaming and fanning flames of hatred that are now burning around the world.

There's zero evidence of that - there's little doubt that the gazans were quite joyful all on their own. 

And your attempts to say that somehow hamas and gaza were dragged into this and hated it is rediculous. Again polling says most approve of the attack and think it was a great idea. 

[impartialobserver]

Israel should be allowed the right to defend itself and to exist as a nation. When you attack as Hamas did on Oct. 7.. they knew that Israel would counterattack. Depending on one's perspective.. they are overreacting or not. When you attack someone and kill hundreds, you can't demand that react equal to you. For example.. hamas kills 500 and then Israel kills 500 and we are even. Not happening. Israel is trying to take measures to ensure that the next attack by Hamas takes place a date further out in time or is lesser in scale. 

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Israel should be allowed the right to defend itself and to exist as a nation. When you attack as Hamas did on Oct. 7.. they knew that Israel would counterattack. Depending on one's perspective.. they are overreacting or not. When you attack someone and kill hundreds, you can't demand that react equal to you. For example.. hamas kills 500 and then Israel kills 500 and we are even. Not happening. Israel is trying to take measures to ensure that the next attack by Hamas takes place a date further out in time or is lesser in scale. 

Agreed, I think that the idea that retaliation be proportional is entirely flawed. I don't think retaliation is a good idea as policy at the best of times. And as you say a Tit for Tat exchange makes zero sense. It's not about 'retaliation' which smaks of 'revenge'

I would say that the Israeli rights to defense extends to taking whatever action is necessary to protect themselves against a future event of this type. If they can do that with no deaths, great. If it requires a lot of deaths to be able to make that happen fine. As long as the deaths are not in excess of what is reasonably necessary to secure their safety then as far as I'm concerned it's legitimate. And if it exceeds that then there's a problem and Israel has committed the crime.

So far given the fact that Hamas refuses to surrender, and has completely integrated itself in the civilian population with the apparent intent of causing civilian casualties I don't think it can be said that the death toll to date is unreasonable.

Edited May 20, 2024 by CdnFox

[impartialobserver]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Agreed, I think that the idea that retaliation be proportional is entirely flawed. I don't think retaliation is a good idea as policy at the best of times. And as you say a Tit for Tat exchange makes zero sense. It's not about 'retaliation' which smaks of 'revenge'

I would say that the Israeli rights to defense extends to taking whatever action is necessary to protect themselves against a future event of this type. If they can do that with no deaths, great. If it requires a lot of deaths to be able to make that happen fine. As long as the deaths are not in excess of what is reasonably necessary to secure their safety then as far as I'm concerned it's legitimate. And if it exceeds that then there's a problem and Israel has committed the crime.

So far given the fact that Hamas refuses to surrender, and has completely integrated itself in the civilian population with the apparent intent of causing civilian casualties I don't think it can be said that the death toll to date is unreasonable.

Israel knows that another attack by Hamas or Hezbollah is coming. It is simply a matter of minimizing the damage of those attacks and possibly cutting down on the number of them. This will continue as both insist on being the master of the given land area. Some of this gets exacerbated by the climate. Hot, arid, dry climates inherently have a resource scarcity and that brings desperation into it. The reason that Jordan, Syria, Egypt do not simply absorb them into their population is that they are stretched thin already when it comes to water, electricity, and agricultural output. 

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Israel should be allowed the right to defend itself and to exist as a nation.

As should anyone in the same shoes.

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

We have already discussed colonization, and apartheid...there has been none...

Good grief AG, give your head shake...even Israelis call themselves settlers.

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

As should anyone in the same shoes.

Sure - let us know if someone attacks someone else without warning or declaration with the intent of specifically targeting thousands of civilians and mutilates their bodies or burns them alive. 

Until then, gaza is still the bad guy here.  

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Good grief AG, give your head shake...even Israelis call themselves settlers.

Only those on the west bank. Anyway, the whole region was colonized centuries ago. That's why they're all Muslims and speak Arabic.

[impartialobserver]

9 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Only those on the west bank. Anyway, the whole region was colonized centuries ago. That's why they're all Muslims and speak Arabic.

have you ever heard of a trilogy named Cities of Salt? If not, you should give it a try. Fundamentalist Muslims loathe these books. Why? It tells a story where the Westerners are not the devils but almost pawns that come into the game (proverbial) just a bit late. 

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Good grief AG, give your head shake...even Israelis call themselves settlers.

I don't care what they call themselves...can you be a colonizer when your people have had a footprint in the area as long or longer than the palestinians...it is a yes or no answer...

[CdnFox]

39 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I don't care what they call themselves...can you be a colonizer when your people have had a footprint in the area as long or longer than the palestinians...it is a yes or no answer...

Actually, although you'll probably be mildly missed at me for wandering off topic slightly, it depends a little on the definition of:Ize that you use. While taking over an area from the current inhabitants is one accepted definition, the establishment of a state or control over a region on behalf of a state is also valid, so even if the people have lived there before if they are expanding the nation of Israel it could be said to be:Izing the area or settling it on behalf of Israel even if the same people have lived there in the past.

But it's kind of stupid. Very clearly that is an ethnic home for the hebrew people and to use the term in the way that is being used now is to suggest that they are some outside people that have never resided there in the past, rather than the same people who lived there who are creating a new nation. And that would be false

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I don't care what they call themselves...can you be a colonizer when your people have had a footprint in the area as long or longer than the palestinians...it is a yes or no answer...

In light of 1st Nations whose footprint in the Americas makes Israel's look like they just showed up?

It's nowhere near as simple as yes or no.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

In light of 1st Nations whose footprint in the Americas makes Israel's look like they just showed up?

It's nowhere near as simple as yes or no.

Being a colonist or settler is absolutely NOT relative to the length of time it's been since someone else settled the same area.  Sorry. 

Once they're done settling - they're not settlers, they're settled.  And once they're not a colony they're not colonials.  Canada has niether settlers nor colonials any more and its quite arguable that the israelis are past that point as well. Maybe you could agrgue those 'settling' in the west bank are but israel is a thing, it's not a 'settlement' and it's not a colony. 

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

In light of 1st Nations whose footprint in the Americas makes Israel's look like they just showed up?

It's nowhere near as simple as yes or no.

Not sure how that is relevant in this post, but OK, First nations wins... you've yet to explain how Israel are colonizers..

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure how that is relevant in this post, but OK, First nations wins... you've yet to explain how Israel are colonizers..

Or better yet why it matters. Whatever you call them Israel is a real thing and is not going anywhere. Which means the people in the area have a choice. They can choose to live in peace and find a way to get along so that everybody has as much of what they want as they can, or they can choose violence and die which is currently their program.

Arguing about labels and names at the end of the day is just trying to come up with an excuse for why they're choosing violence. It doesn't matter. Choose peace or choose violence that's where we're at. They chose violence and how's that working out?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure how that is relevant in this post, but OK, First nations wins...

How many times have you heard it said that what happened to natives a short couple of hundred years ago was soooo long ago that they should just get over it? Seriously? In light of how few people are capable of getting over something that happened to Jews thousands of years ago? What does get over it even mean?

We're often told how Israel has the right to defend itself, interestingly enough our 1st Nations had to fight in Supreme Court for the right to take our governments to court - to defend themselves from the consequences and effects of colonization,l including dispossession, oppression and subjugation. Sound familiar?

Palestinians are having to painfully and bitterly fight their battle for respect and recognition in the court of public opinion and it appears they're slowly but surely winning - as evidenced by the growing divisiveness the ME conflict is causing in the west.

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

...you've yet to explain how Israel are colonizers...

Have you ever looked up the word settlers in a dictionary? You'll find that virtually every single dictionary in existence makes reference to the word colonist to underscore and make clear what the word settler means.

Oh well, I guess we have the mainstream media trying to control how you think it so it probably stands to reason that mainstream dictionaries are also in on bamboozling you.

Of course the real relevance of the comparison between Palestinians and 1st Nations couldn't be more starkly obvious than the fact Canada showed Israel how to colonize Palestine and dispossess, displace oppress and subjugate Palestinians.

The hypocrisy and your denial about what is happening here is truly staggering.

 

Edited May 21, 2024 by eyeball

[User]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

Palestinians are having to painfully and bitterly fight their battle for respect and recognition in the court of public opinion and it appears they're slowly but surely winning - as evidenced by the growing divisiveness the ME conflict is causing in the west.

You can stop the charade of acting like you don't understand why we repeatedly tell you that you support Hamas. 

[CdnFox]

11 hours ago, eyeball said:

We're often told how Israel has the right to defend itself, interestingly enough our 1st Nations had to fight in Supreme Court for the right to take our governments to court

So you're saying that addressing land claims in court and fighting off a terrorist attack where thousands of your innocent civilians were raped, mutilated and slaughtered is pretty much the same thing. 

You have lost your Facking mind. 

[eyeball]

So much for the false symmetry pushed around here that says Gazans are only getting what they voted for, now even Netanyahu says it's wrong to compare the elected leaders of Israel to the tyrants running Hamas.

. 

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, User said:

You can stop the charade of acting like you don't understand why we repeatedly tell you that you support Hamas. 

I understand perfectly well why - you don't like any criticism of all the disjointed inconsistent charades dreamt up to justify Israel's treatment of the people it's displaced, dispossessed, oppressed and subjugated since Palestine was colonized 75 years ago.

One day the justification is biblical the next day its recent history and ancient history the day after that. When it's not ideological it's racial and vice versa and round and round it goes. 

None of it can withstand a simple challenge to describe what you people would do if it is was you.

[User]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

None of it can withstand a simple challenge to describe what you people would do if it is was you.

Yet again... if you were one of the Aliens in the movie Aliens, what would you do? 

Would you have fought for your Queen and killed the colonists, the women and children, to breed more Aliens?

Does that mean the Space Marines were wrong for trying to stop them and defend themselves from also being killed to make Aliens?

Your question about being in their shoes is absurd and doesn't prove anything. It is just an attempt to justify and defend what Hamas did, which is exactly why we continue to point out that you support them. 

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

I understand perfectly well why - you don't like any criticism of all the disjointed inconsistent charades dreamt up to justify Israel's treatment of the people it's displaced, dispossessed, oppressed and subjugated since Palestine was colonized 75 years ago.

One day the justification is biblical the next day its recent history and ancient history the day after that. When it's not ideological it's racial and vice versa and round and round it goes. 

None of it can withstand a simple challenge to describe what you people would do if it is was you.

All of that has been answered eyeball. There are no inconsistencies. The challenge is you bring up different rationale to support your pro Hamas claims and people tend to refute it. So when you say this is all been happening for a hundred years other people say well realistically it's longer than that. When you bring up religion people bring up religion.

But at the end of the day the people alive today right now make their decisions. And right now Hamas chose to attack and kill civilians without warning or declaration in a horrible fashion. Israel is moving to eliminate that threat and whatever is necessary to eliminate that threat will be tolerated. His real has a right to self-defense.

And none of the Canadian Russians who got kicked out of Russia back in 1918 Talk about going back and reseing their land. They have moved on. Gaza chose not to move on and is getting killed.

Their initial resistance could have been understood but at this point in time? Sorry nope

[WestCanMan]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

I understand perfectly well why - you don't like any criticism of all the disjointed inconsistent charades dreamt up to justify Israel's treatment of the people it's displaced, dispossessed, oppressed and subjugated since Palestine was colonized 75 years ago.

No one doubts that had an unfortunate outcome, but it was only 1% as unfortunate as the outcome in Pakistan just a few months earlier.

People who aren't mad at Pakistan have no room to be mad at Israel. Pakistanis killed 1400x as many people and displaced 10x as many. Where's the outrage from Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc?

Pakistanis killed almost 1M people in 1947. Maybe more. They were given their country exactly the same way Israel was. They forced ten times as many people out as Israel did, and there was no right to return for any of those people. 

Honestly, Palestinians should be happy that the Israelis weren't as bad as the Pakistanis. That's why they're alive today. And other ME countries should be moving on and accepting Israel, just like they do with Pakistan. 

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Honestly, Palestinians should be happy that the Israelis weren't as bad as the Pakistanis. That's why they're alive today. And other ME countries should be moving on and accepting Israel, just like they do with Pakistan. 

Sure, and our First Nations should celebrate a Settlers Day in honour of how benign their colonization was. It's like you're suggesting Palestinians should put on the shoes of someone from Pakistan to get a sense of the appreciation you're prescribing for them.

So you figure because two wrongs make a right Palestinians should just get over it? You seem to have a really poor understanding of human nature.

Is that what you would do?