Pro-Hamas Rallies in Canada

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Fu ck you too for saying I support the rapists and murderers of Jews.

 

Dude  when EVERYONE is pointing out thats' what you're doing  it's time to take a step back and look at it. 

You ARE supporting and excusing rapists and murderers of jews.  If that makes you uncomfortable then you need to review.  Simply falsly claiming they were iranians does not change anything. 

[User]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, I'm just challenging the insistence that it was ordinary Palestinians, especially kids and people just trying to survive the already harsh realities of day to day to life under the thumbs of all the oppressors lined up against them.

Hamas and its rulers don't give any more of a shit about them than Israel or its most hard-boiled allies do.

No, that is not all you have been doing here at all. You just got done trying to claim it was Iran and not Hamas.

You are defending Hamas. Your positions defend Hamas. What you support is allowing those murderous raping terrorists in Hamas to win and stay in power. Then you cry when we rightly accuse you of supporting them. 

[Venandi]

Even though there are clearly religious differences, I don't recall a single conversation there being about religion as causal. Maybe just me, but I never saw it and it was never the grievance I heard. This is a struggle over land by two separate ethnic groups, each with long standing and divergent claims to the area. 

I'll offer another observation too FWIW. Most of the Palestinian players there that I talked to know what happened to them, their father and their grandfather. That's important because  discussions about the Balfour Declaration usually don't resonate with them. They can see the farm on the hill where they grew up, they can point it out, tell you how and when it was lost, they have the keys to the front door in their pocket.... but somebody else lives there now. 

Hamas doesn't represent those folks, they don't even think about them, they will never negotiate peace or those legitimate grievances in good faith... and when I say never, I mean NEVER. 

Want to pursue peace? Address legitimate concerns? Achieve equitable outcomes? Get rid of Hamas and find Israel a peace partner they can work with.... or don't. That simple I think.

As Yoda would say, "do or do not."

 

 

Edited May 16, 2024 by Venandi

[WestCanMan]

51 minutes ago, Venandi said:

One things for sure, Hamas is dedicated to the killing of Jews and the destruction of Israel. They're closely aligned with other bad actors in the region and that's why refugees are a non starter with other Islamic countries, especially those with monarchies. 

If this was a jigsaw puzzle, that right there forms the whole outside border and the main identifiable features in the middle, which are the logical starting points for piecing it all together. 

A lot of people here just started looking at the puzzle in Dec 2023, alongside the shrieked "WE THE VICTIMS" narratives of Hamas supporters (because the squeakiest wheel gets the grease), and from there they think that they have the solution all figured out.  

To them, this is a problem that can be solved if the Israelis give Hamas everything that they want: 1. because Hamas supporters scream so loudly that they are 'clearly the only victims', and 2. because they have no idea what Hamas really wants. None at all.

They compare Hamas to soldiers in Ukraine defending their own country, and they're not doing that at all. Hamas are terrorists/propagandists in the middle of a campaign to foment hatred against the Israelis until there's an eventual genocide.

Hamas is not trying to win a minor war right now, their job is to keep the shitfight going until enough Palestinian kids are killed that the moral resolve to commit genocide against Israel can galvanize enough people into completing the job that was started in 1948 (or earlier). Hamas is still working on the exact same solution that muslims in the ME have been working on for several generations: "How do we get all of the Israelis either dead or completely subjugated". That's exactly what it will take to make Hamas happy, and they will stop nothing short of that. 

[CdnFox]

21 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Even though there are clearly religious differences, I don't recall a single conversation there being about religion as causal. Maybe just me, but I never saw it and it was never the grievance I heard. This is a struggle over land by two separate ethnic groups, each with long standing and divergent claims to the area. 

I'll offer another observation too FWIW. Most of the Palestinian players there that I talked to know what happened to them, their father and their grandfather. That's important because  discussions about the Balfour Declaration usually don't resonate with them. They can see the farm on the hill where they grew up, they can point it out, tell you how and when it was lost, they have the keys to the front door in their pocket.... but somebody else lives there now. 

Hamas doesn't represent those folks, they don't even think about them, they will never negotiate peace or those legitimate grievances in good faith... and when I say never, I mean NEVER. 

Want to pursue peace? Address legitimate concerns? Achieve equitable outcomes? Get rid of Hamas and find Israel a peace partner they can work with.... or don't. That simple I think.

As Yoda would say, "do or do not."

 

 

IT's the same for a lot of people. My family on one side fled the ukraine shortly after the revolution - the russians killed most of the family (one uncle came home to find all his family's heads on the kitchen table), they were treated very badly and they fled with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. 

Got to canada and while they were sad (my great aunt cried a lot) they made a life for themselves and raised their kids and none of us feel particularly interested in hating russia or going back and demanding our lands. 

Sometimes you have to realize the world has changed and make a life for yourself. 

[WestCanMan]

28 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Most of the Palestinian players there that I talked to know what happened to them, their father, and their grandfather, that means discussions about the Balfour Declaration usually don't resonate with them. They can see the farm on the hill where they grew up, they can point it out, tell you how and when it was lost, they have the keys to the front door in their pocket.... but somebody else lives there now. 

You are 100% correct, and this is a sad saga that has disrupted, impoverished and ended the lives of a lot of perfectly decent people/families/communities who did not deserve it.

You could make the case that generations of muslims stood by and supported discriminatory policies against Jews (and others) all across the ME, allowing a lot of evil to occur, but 1. that's been normal throughout history, and people are born in the middle of that so it's entirely normal for them and 2. a few families in "the contested areas" shouldn't have to bear the brunt of that for all of the Ottoman empire bigotry.  

The fact remains that an unimaginable amount of hardship was inflicted on families who didn't deserve it. BUT:

• muslim nations that could offer a helping hand to Palestinians refuse to do that - they want the hatred and killing to continue because they value islam more than muslims.
• Muslim nations also ignore the exact same hardships that were inflicted on former residents of what's now Pakistan, they literally don't give a shit about any of them. For that reason I consider their "care" for Palestinians to be borne of bigotry, not humanitarianism, and I don't buy into other people's bigotry and plans for genocide. 

Quote

Hamas doesn't represent those folks, they don't even think about them, they will never negotiate peace or those legitimate grievances in good faith... and when I say never, I mean f------ NEVER. 

Exactly. Victims are awesome propaganda pieces for Iran and Hamas. Nothing more, nothing less.

This war was basically started by Hamas so that 1. they could get some dead-child photo ops so that they could 2. get a real good genocide against Israel going. 

That's incomprehensible to normal humans, but it's how the hive-mind works. 

Edited May 16, 2024 by WestCanMan

[eyeball]

34 minutes ago, User said:

You just got done trying to claim it was Iran and not Hamas

Nope Hamas is responsible too, I just don't believe Palestinians are as responsible for Hamas or it's actions as you insist.

I get it, you people are too chicken-shit to support anything other than mowing the lawn in Gaza while ignoring the roots which is Hamas' real boss in Iran and Iran's allies in Beijing and Moscow.

[Black Dog]

18 hours ago, Army Guy said:

WOW...maybe it is time your took a break big fella..your starting to sound like those people everyone talks about at the water cooler...

You don't know the backstory here, keep your yap shut.

[WestCanMan]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Nope Hamas is responsible too, I just don't believe Palestinians are as responsible for Hamas or it's actions as you insist.

I get it, you people are too chicken-shit to support anything other than mowing the lawn in Gaza while ignoring the roots which is Hamas' real boss in Iran and Iran's allies in Beijing and Moscow.

No one is ignoring Iran. 

Every single person here who identifies radical bigotry as the root cause of this conflict has acknowledged that countries outside of Israel/Palestine form the backbone of the problem. 

3 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

You don't know the backstory here, keep your yap shut.

You've been proven the fool 100x on this topic, but your comments are helping reveal the deep-seated bigotry fuelling this shitshow.

Please keep yapping. 

[WestCanMan]

57 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Dude  when EVERYONE is pointing out thats' what you're doing  it's time to take a step back and look at it. 

You ARE supporting and excusing rapists and murderers of jews.  If that makes you uncomfortable then you need to review.  Simply falsly claiming they were iranians does not change anything. 

Honestly, by coming to grips with the fact that this isn't really a Palestine/Israel issue, he's awakening to the gravity of Israel's situation. 

Give him some time. It's a massively broad issue, and most people are trying to understand it by focusing on the exact spot where all the bullets are being fired.

I'll give him credit for taking a broader view. 

Edited May 16, 2024 by WestCanMan

[CdnFox]

Just now, WestCanMan said:

Honestly, by coming to grips with the fact that this isn't really a Palestine/Israel issue, he's awakening to the gravity of Israel's situation. 

Give him some time. 

(hums the tune from Jeopardy) 

[User]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Nope Hamas is responsible too, I just don't believe Palestinians are as responsible for Hamas or it's actions as you insist.

I get it, you people are too chicken-shit to support anything other than mowing the lawn in Gaza while ignoring the roots which is Hamas' real boss in Iran and Iran's allies in Beijing and Moscow.

The Venn diagram for who composes Hamas is 99.9%, overlapping with who is a Palestinian. Palestinians voted for Hamas, they cheer on Hamas when they kill Israelis, they cheered them on when Hamas drug the dead bodies and hostages back through the streets, and Palestinians used the Hamas attack chaos to further loot from the Israelis. Numerous polls show a strong plurality of support for Hamas and a majority support for October 7th. 

Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

You keep changing your story about Hamas as well. You tried to claim it was Iran, but now you agree it was Hamas who did the rape and torture? Hamas who took hostages? Hamas that gunned women and children down?

 

[impartialobserver]

Depending on the random point in time that one chooses, each side could say that the other attacked them and so has a grievance. In the end.. One side or the other has to get over it or cease to exist in order for the perpetual conflict to stop. 

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

One side or the other has to get over it 

Unfortunately it only works if both sides are willing to get over it.  And at least one definitely is not. Gaza and it's people are obviously not willing to let things go. 

[eyeball]

29 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Even though there are clearly religious differences, I don't recall a single conversation there being about religion as causal. Maybe just me, but I never saw it and it was never the grievance I heard.

I think the worst of this conversation takes place over here amongst people who need excuses for supporting Israel without question and especially without having to resort to modern humanist solutions that specifically avoid religion.

42 minutes ago, Venandi said:

They can see the farm on the hill where they grew up, they can point it out, tell you how and when it was lost, they have the keys to the front door in their pocket.... but somebody else lives there now. 

Yep, I'll never forget the time almost 50 years ago when a 1st Nations fellow from the village I live next door too came up the road hollering 'its all mine...and they're giving it all back'...I could see he was a little nukchoo and asked if he was alright and he just laughed and asked 'You didn't get the letter? 'They said it's all mine' as he waved expansively around us. He wandered off back the way he came and I never thought much about it until 30 years later when it dawned on me he was talking about the future...which is now the present.

A great big grand slam truth, reconciliation and treaty process dealing with this is really the only way forward I think. It'll cost trillions by the time the dust settles but less than a forever war.

And don't forget we still have climate change action to pay for...plus turning around the trend towards the greater respectability afforded dictatorships these days. I think doing something about them will also go a long way towards reigning in the growing economic inequality in the world.

If it's not one thing it's another. Leaving it all to our kids and grandkids to deal with is just cruel and unconscionable. Things are getting just too overwhelming and it'll swamp civilization if it's left to continue festering the way it has.

 

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Unfortunately it only works if both sides are willing to get over it.  And at least one definitely is not. Gaza and it's people are obviously not willing to let things go. 

alas, it will never cease. I attack you, you attack me.. should be even. But no one pays attention to the first instance, we only care about your retaliatory measure. So then I have to attack again.. and so we go on into perpetuity. 

[User]

17 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

alas, it will never cease. I attack you, you attack me.. should be even. But no one pays attention to the first instance, we only care about your retaliatory measure. So then I have to attack again.. and so we go on into perpetuity. 

This is a bogus attempt to draw some moral equivalency here as if what Hamas did on October 7th was just some tit-for-tat. 

Israel targets military targets and tries to kill Hamas militants. 

Hamas invaded and raped women, tortured, and killed women and children, deliberately targeting innocent people to be slaughtered, and taking hostages as well. 

This is not some tit-for-tat strike. Hamas engages in a deliberate campaign of terror with the stated goal to kill Israelis and want to kill all the Jews. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, User said:

 

Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

From your link:

• Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.

That translates to "crush Hamas at any cost" in the eyes of any impartial observer. 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, impartialobserver said:

alas, it will never cease. I attack you, you attack me.. should be even. But no one pays attention to the first instance, we only care about your retaliatory measure. So then I have to attack again.. and so we go on into perpetuity. 

This probably ends up with no more Gaza, and then the ensuing "Hamas" attacks on Israel come from places like Iran, which don't want to be bombed. 

Trump already showed us all that terrorism goes down drastically when it's the leaders who end up getting all the 'glory of martyrdom' and the 72 virgins, and not just a bunch of 17 yr olds who got sucked in. 

[Black Dog]

1 hour ago, User said:

This is a bogus attempt to draw some moral equivalency here as if what Hamas did on October 7th was just some tit-for-tat. 

Israel targets military targets and tries to kill Hamas militants. 

Hamas invaded and raped women, tortured, and killed women and children, deliberately targeting innocent people to be slaughtered, and taking hostages as well. 

This is not some tit-for-tat strike. Hamas engages in a deliberate campaign of terror with the stated goal to kill Israelis and want to kill all the Jews. 

To Israel, a civilian apartment block that has a single Hamas member living in it is a military target, the term is utterly meaningless.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Black Dog

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

No one is ignoring Iran. 

Every single person here who identifies radical bigotry as the root cause of this conflict has acknowledged that countries outside of Israel/Palestine form the backbone of the problem.

If no one is ignoring Iran then why the need to rub it in your faces? It's pretty rich listening to you use the word backbone in light of so many years of listening to you people prattle on about appeasement being a trait of the left.

It's pretty obvious from your position on Ukraine where the respectability so many dictators in world enjoy is actually rooted.

Yes, in addition to likely costing the west trillions this effort will likely cost lives too.

[User]

6 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

To Israel, a civilian apartment block that has a single Hamas member living in it is a military target, the term is utterly meaningless.

An outright lie. Israel goes out of its way to drop leaflets, phone call, drop knockers, all to get civilians out of the area. 

There are exceptions for certain high priority targets, but Hamas operating from civilian infrastructure is on Hamas. They don't just have one random guy living in his apartment... they embed the bulk (if not all) of their military under civilian infrastructure, in it, or right next to it. They fire rockets from schools, they hide in Hospitals. Israel goes out of their way to minimize collateral damage, as evidenced by the bomb to death ratio. 

If they were leveling whole blocks full of people to kill one Hamas fighter, there would be 100 times more dead then there are. 

 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

Depending on the random point in time that one chooses, each side could say that the other attacked them and so has a grievance. In the end.. One side or the other has to get over it or cease to exist in order for the perpetual conflict to stop. 

Or someone needs to step in between and put their foot down.

There are too many other more dangerous situations in front of us that we're running out of time on that need addressing to let this situation get in the way.

We're approaching a point in the emergency where people getting in the way are the immediate emergency.

 

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Fu ck you too for saying I support the rapists and murderers of Jews.

Fricken' ass-holes the whole lot of you who knowingly accuse people of this.  It's even most evident when you try to back-peddle from it. You see the same thing when you try to distance yourselves from other off the cuff shoot from the lip comments you people make when so many other issues come up.

There's nothing unwitting about it, no one is forcing you to say stupid libellous shit. It's entirely by choice...its just free speech right?

Fu ck you.

By regurgitating Hamas talking points, like this:

• Israel stole Palestinian land from those that worked and earned it. These people can even produce legal deeds to stolen property.

  Theft and dispossession is at the very root of the conflict in the ME - it's been there from the very beginning and to this day Palestinian lands are still being stolen and their rightful owners are killed for resisting.

and trying to make this whole topic about 1948, you're being wildly ignorant of the length and breadth of the problem, who the agitators are, and what their goals are.

FYI the 1948 "right of return" ship sailed when muslims embraced Pakistan as a good neighbour and spit on the graves of the 1947 victims who were slaughtered or dispossessed of their homes. Historical land claims made by "friends of Palestine" are known to stem from bigotry and not a sense of fairness.  

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

and trying to make this whole topic about 1948, you're being wildly ignorant of the length and breadth of the problem, who the agitators are, and what their goals are.

FYI the 1948 "right of return" ship sailed when muslims embraced Pakistan

So where do Hunter's laptop and Steele's dossier fit in.