WestCanMan Posted May 13 Author Report Share Posted May 13 4 minutes ago, ironstone said: This is what the civilized world is up against. He's perfectly open about what the ultimate goal of Hamas is. And still, progressives around the world rally behind men like this. Just because members of Hamas commit terrorist attacks, brag about how much fun it is to kill babies, kill gays, and openly admit that they want to commit genocide doesn't mean that they're not good liberals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 13 Author Report Share Posted May 13 4 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Ever since 1967 Gaza has been under some form of Israeli Occupation, and hamas has never started a war with Israel, at most they've ended ceasefires in the ongoing war against Israeli occupation of Palestine. Anyone who tries to claim "Gaza" hasn't been under Israeli Occupation is willfully ignorant of the situation. There hasn't been a moment where Hamas was in control of Gaza where Israel wasn't committing acts of war against the territory. Hamas has been relatively peaceful in comparison, mostly because they struggle to mount any kind of resistance not any lack of desire, but still. Trying to claim that Israel laying siege to a territory and blockading its ports is peace is laughable and anyone doing so should never take part in a political discussion. There hasn't been a moment of Israel's existence when the muslim countries in the ME weren't trying to commit genocide against them. Full-on genocide. Those savages all loved the genocide in Pakistan, and saw how quickly it was forgiven, and then 7 countries tried to wipe Israel off the map the first day they existed. Then they did it again in 1967. In between then, and since, it has been an ongoing struggle for them to foment hatred against Jews/Israelis. That's why there have been "refugee camps" for 75 years - to raise generations of children in poverty and strife: children who grow up to be the human abominations we see now in Hamas, and whom you love and support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 42 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: I am great. It is obvious with your constant retort, you have issues LOL Yes, I have issues with the nonsense you post. Keep posting it, I will likely keep responding if I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Just because members of Hamas commit terrorist attacks, brag about how much fun it is to kill babies, kill gays, and openly admit that they want to commit genocide doesn't mean that they're not good liberals. People expect the victims of a conflict to be bitter and vengeful. They're willing to overlook a lot of reprehensible things when those feelings are directed towards a villain. And in general, it's expected that two countries at war will hate each other because of it, and that hatred alone doesn't justify continuing a war, because that will never end. 2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: There hasn't been a moment of Israel's existence when the muslim countries in the ME weren't trying to commit genocide against them. Full-on genocide. That's an outright lie. Even if I was willing to concede that they've spent every moment since than in a state where if they were forced to honestly answer whether they wished they could commit genocide against Israel or not they'd say yes, which I'm not, that still wouldn't mean they've actively tried to do so even once since Israeli defeated them in 1967. This kind of thinking is toxic and prevents people from forming any basis for real change in the situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 28 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Ever since 1967 Gaza has been under some form of Israeli Occupation, and hamas has never started a war with Israel, at most they've ended ceasefires in the ongoing war against Israeli occupation of Palestine. Anyone who tries to claim "Gaza" hasn't been under Israeli Occupation is willfully ignorant of the situation. There hasn't been a moment where Hamas was in control of Gaza where Israel wasn't committing acts of war against the territory. Hamas has been relatively peaceful in comparison, mostly because they struggle to mount any kind of resistance not any lack of desire, but still. Trying to claim that Israel laying siege to a territory and blockading its ports is peace is laughable and anyone doing so should never take part in a political discussion. I've posted this before but since you are new here, I'll put it up again. A short history of your beloved Hamas. "Hamas has been relatively peaceful in comparison..." Your statement ranks right up with that 'journalist' with burning buildings behind him while stating it's "mostly peaceful". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 (edited) 13 minutes ago, User said: Yes, I have issues with the nonsense you post. Keep posting it, I will likely keep responding if I see it. ROFLMAO ROFLMAO...ROFLMAO This is describing you perfectly....“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” ROFLMAO ROFLMAO...ROFLMAO Edited May 13 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, ironstone said: I've posted this before but since you are new here, I'll put it up again. A short history of your beloved Hamas. "Hamas has been relatively peaceful in comparison..." Your statement ranks right up with that 'journalist' with burning buildings behind him while stating it's "mostly peaceful". Not saying shit about what hamas has done to their own citizens, but it's a simple fact that Israel has been openly at war with hamas since before they became the leaders of palestine, but hamas hasn't really been able to mount effective resistance against the much stronger Israel. You don't need to convince people that hamas are horrible people no sane person would ever want to be in charge of their country. Mostly because it doesn't matter. People are used to Countries like China or Russia or Pakistan or Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia or many other countries having horrible oppressive leadership that doesn't have their citizens best interests at heart. We as an international community have willfully chosen to turn a blind eye to such atrocities as far as military response goes. Trying to draw attention to these points is just wasting energy about things nobody considers justifying an invasion of another country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 44 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Ever since 1967 Gaza has been under some form of Israeli Occupation, Ahhh. Some "Form". So - not actually an occupation, Quote Anyone who tries to claim "Gaza" hasn't been under Israeli Occupation is willfully ignorant of the situation. Because they're not recognizing the non-occupational occupation. Could we call it the 'remote occupation'? 46 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Trying to claim that Israel laying siege to a territory and blockading its ports is peace is laughable Trying to claim that the israelis didn't let good, people or product into gaza prior to october 7th is !diotic. Or is this a "non-siege siege" kind of like your 'not not a real occupation' absentee occupation. Gaza was not occupited nor was it under siege. period. They had peace. Now they have war. That was their choice and decision. They didn't have war before october. I guarantee you THEY notice a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 17 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: This is describing you perfectly....“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I already told you, I don't expect much of anything from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Ahhh. Some "Form". Was every square inch of the Gaza strip constantly occupied by Israeli boots on the ground? No. Did Palestinians have freedom of movement through their territory without needing permission from Israel to travel around their own country? No. Could they fish or conduct maritime commerce without Permission from Israel? No. Could they attract immigrants to their country to be teachers or help rebuild their country without permission from Israel? No. Could Israel have been a crueler occupier, sure, but to call the Palestinians free and at peace is just laughable. Personally if I was them, the ceasefire they had with Israel was probably preferable to the open warfare they've now found themselves in, but they were never at peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 8 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Was every square inch of the Gaza strip constantly occupied by Israeli boots on the ground? No. Did Palestinians have freedom of movement through their territory without needing permission from Israel to travel around their own country? No. Could they fish or conduct maritime commerce without Permission from Israel? No. Could they attract immigrants to their country to be teachers or help rebuild their country without permission from Israel? No. Could Israel have been a crueler occupier, sure, but to call the Palestinians free and at peace is just laughable. Personally if I was them, the ceasefire they had with Israel was probably preferable to the open warfare they've now found themselves in, but they were never at peace. Within Gaza, Palestinians had freedom of movement. You just admitted Israel did not have boots on the ground... so they can't enforce movement restrictions if no one is there to enforce them. What was restricted was travel to the West Bank, as that required passage through Israel. People in Gaza could fish, the limit was on how far out, because they would smuggle weapons otherwise. Israel was not going to just sit there and let Hamas import as much weaponry as they could so they could kill even more Israeli people. Duh. No, Gaza was not 100% free, but they could control much of their own destiny and chose to squander billions in aid given to them on building tunnels and military infrastructure to wage war against Israel. They could have lived in peace, but chose instead to constantly probe and attack Israel, to dig tunnels to try to kidnap Israeli people and to conduct terrorism on Israeli people. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 8 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Was every square inch of the Gaza strip constantly occupied by Israeli boots on the ground? No. Then stfu with your bullshit. There was no occupation at all. Period. Gaza and the west bank are not their own countries or nations, so israel exerts authority over them, mostly in the form of making sure they're not smuggling weapons etc. Gaza COULD HAVE BEEN it's own nation and israel was actively negotiating for that with the west bank - till they chose to back hamas in 2014. "We're open to you being your own country'. "Ok! we want to kill you and all your families!" " err....... new plan......" Gaza had peace. They chose war. And then they chose to hide behind their women and kids. Now they are enjoying the benefits of their choice. Maybe they should have chosen peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 16 minutes ago, CdnFox said: There was no occupation at all. Period. Israel's blockade of gaza has been internationally classified as an occupation of the territory. Facts don't care about your feelings. 18 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Gaza and the west bank are not their own countries or nations, so israel exerts authority over them Which is the crux of the problem people have with Israel. What right does Israel have to exert any authority over them? Country, Nation, Territory, whatever Palestine is, it's not part of Israel. Israel treating it like Israel has any authority over it is why Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. 28 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Gaza COULD HAVE BEEN it's own nation and israel was actively negotiating for that with the west bank - till they chose to back hamas in 2014. "We're open to you being your own country'. "Ok! we want to kill you and all your families!" " err....... new plan......" You say this as if it's something they needed Israel's permission for in the first place. The fact Israel is involved in the discussion of Palestinian statehood at all is outrageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 59 minutes ago, User said: I already told you, I don't expect much of anything from you. Good. Then F off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 6 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Israel's blockade of gaza has been internationally classified as an occupation of the territory. Facts don't care about your feelings. And? The point here is that Israel was not actually in Gaza "occupying" the territory. We are not playing some semantics game here. 9 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Which is the crux of the problem people have with Israel. What right does Israel have to exert any authority over them? Country, Nation, Territory, whatever Palestine is, it's not part of Israel. Israel treating it like Israel has any authority over it is why Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. They lost a war... and lost continued wars and aggression. They have been conquered and continue to pose an ongoing threat. 10 minutes ago, Videospirit said: You say this as if it's something they needed Israel's permission for in the first place. The fact Israel is involved in the discussion of Palestinian statehood at all is outrageous. Yes, it is outrageous they went to war against Israel instead of focusing on their statehood. 3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Good. Then F off Um... no. This is a public forum, you post junk here, expect a response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 6 hours ago, eyeball said: We'll stop the presses. This changes EVERYTHING. Just pointing out that your sad tale of woe about someone angry because their land was stolen by UN order doesn't exist anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 10 minutes ago, User said: And? The point here is that Israel was not actually in Gaza "occupying" the territory. We are not playing some semantics game here. The point is Israel is at War with Palestine. The occupation is part of that war. They have never been at peace. Israel has not ended the war despite achieving victory in it, and somehow expects the people they are occupying to stop hating them before they'll ever end their occupation. 10 minutes ago, User said: They lost a war... and lost continued wars and aggression. They have been conquered and continue to pose an ongoing threat. Yes, it is outrageous they went to war against Israel instead of focusing on their statehood. Not sure what your point is here exactly? There have been countless wars throughout history. If neither country is willing to surrender or make peace, the war continues until the countries change their minds or one country achieves a victory so great they can essentially force terms on the other without their consent. The problem here is Israel achieved a victory so great they could impose terms on Palestine and than Israel... chose not to do so. Israel decided it would be better to just stay at war with Palestine, and that Israel would never end the war until Palestine stops hating them. And since people at war are never going to improve their opinion towards the country at war with them, Israel basically chose to Genocide the Palestinians until there's no one left to hate them and has continued that policy ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 36 minutes ago, Videospirit said: You say this as if it's something they needed Israel's permission for in the first place. The fact Israel is involved in the discussion of Palestinian statehood at all is outrageous. Every nation on Earth was created, held, and expanded due to force, including this one. No other reason. You ever see a map of Europe from the Middle Ages? Few of the countries of today even existed. No France. No Germany. No Russia. No Spain. No Britain. The same goes for almost everywhere else. The West Bank and Gaza were a part of Jordan and Egypt respectively, and lost when they made war on Israel and refused to sign peace treaties. Now neither wants them back. You want Israel to grant the occupants self-rule despite the occupants' stated desire to destroy Israel and murder all its people? What world do you live in where any nation would grant that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 3 minutes ago, Videospirit said: The point is Israel is at War with Palestine. The occupation is part of that war. They have never been at peace. Israel has not ended the war despite achieving victory in it, and somehow expects the people they are occupying to stop hating them before they'll ever end their occupation. Which came first, Germany and Japan surrendering and being occupied until the allies were convinced they wouldn't immediately revert to making war again, or them being given self-rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, Videospirit said: The point is Israel is at War with Palestine. The occupation is part of that war. They have never been at peace. Israel has not ended the war despite achieving victory in it, and somehow expects the people they are occupying to stop hating them before they'll ever end their occupation. No, Israel is currently at war with Hamas in Gaza. They were not at war prior to October 7th last year. They had peace prior to that and peace repeatedly after the many other attacks by Hamas too. The Gaza strip was almost entirely left to their own devices. They chose to squander that on continuing their hate for the Jews instead. 4 minutes ago, Videospirit said: Not sure what your point is here exactly? There have been countless wars throughout history. If neither country is willing to surrender or make peace, the war continues until the countries change their minds or one country achieves a victory so great they can essentially force terms on the other without their consent. The problem here is Israel achieved a victory so great they could impose terms on Palestine and than Israel... chose not to do so. Israel decided it would be better to just stay at war with Palestine, and that Israel would never end the war until Palestine stops hating them. And since people at war are never going to improve their opinion towards the country at war with them, Israel basically chose to Genocide the Palestinians until there's no one left to hate them and has continued that policy ever since. You didn't seem to understand why the Palestinians were where they are at today. I was explaining that to you. Israel has been more than willing to make peace with them, over and over again. They refuse, they reject it, they want to continue on hating Jews instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 13 Author Report Share Posted May 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, Videospirit said: People expect the victims of a conflict to be bitter and vengeful. Palestinians are victims of their own genocidal hatred. Nothing more, nothing less. If they're the victims of a foreign power then it's Iran and the rest of the Khartoum resolution crowd, who refuse to give any humanitarian aid to Palestinians or let them immigrate. Jordan tried to allow Palestinians in and they tried to stage a coup. They're shitty people. Quote They're willing to overlook a lot of reprehensible things when those feelings are directed towards a villain. You're willing to overlook baby-killing because you're a bigot, so you don't think of them as human babies. More like bugs. Quote And in general, it's expected that two countries at war will hate each other because of it, and that hatred alone doesn't justify continuing a war, because that will never end. That's how your mind works because you're a bigot. Don't accuse the rest of us of sharing your joy of child murdering. Quote That's an outright lie. That's the truth, you just can't admit it because it deflates all of your bigoted arguments. You can't "rationalize" your tolerance for torturing babies to death after you acknowledge that what's playing out here is just year 75 of the "genocide against Israel" campaign. FYI muslims all accepted Pakistan into the international community after they killed hundreds of thousands of Sikhs and Hindus and forced out another 8M more to ethnically cleanse their homeland. Any anger and resentment that you feel towards Israel for 1948 should be felt 1,400-fold against Pakistan, but it's not. Know why? Because you're a bigot, even if you don't know it. The EXACT things that you feel against Israel are the exact things that bigots feel when they think of groups of people that they can't tolerate. Quote Even if I was willing to concede that they've spent every moment since than in a state where if they were forced to honestly answer whether they wished they could commit genocide against Israel or not they'd say yes, which I'm not, that still wouldn't mean they've actively tried to do so even once since Israeli defeated them in 1967. This kind of thinking is toxic and prevents people from forming any basis for real change in the situation. I'm gonna translate that into English, an dthen comment on it. Quote Even if I was willing to concede that they've spent every moment since then in a state where, if they were forced to honestly answer whether they wished they could commit genocide against Israel or not, they'd say, "yes", which I'm not, that still wouldn't mean that they've actively tried to do so even once since Israeli defeated them in 1967. You don't have to concede it, and you don't even have to force them to answer that question. They openly say it themselves. You just saw a guy saying it on the last page of this thread. There was a video shot in Ottawa where the protest leader openly called Oct 7th a glorious day and all the good little muppets chanted along with him. We saw that part of muslim culture in 1947 when Pakistan was formed, and we saw it in the open acceptance of Pakistan after what they had done. We saw it again in 1948, but it was happening all over the place in the centuries before that. The PLO, Hezbollah, muslim brotherhood, islamic state, Hamas etc. are all bitterly enraged by the existence of a Jewish state in the ME, and they make no bones about saying that there should be no Israel at all. None at all. The Khartoum resolution formalized and solidified every one of the Arab states' strategy for dealing with Israel: no peace, no negotiations, no acknowledgement of Israel as a sovereign state. People say nicer things than "We want genocide" in English, but the PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas etc were all created and all operate with the openly stated goal of eradicating Israel from the map. Some of them even go so far as to say that they don't want the elimination of Israel to be the final goal: they want all Jews dead, everywhere. It's not considered evil or heretical to walk around saying that in Iran, or Egypt, etc. They're comfortable with it, but it's like the muslim inside voice, for the most part. They personally believe it, but they don't admit it in mixed company. Did you know that when the Jews all left every inch of Gaza, the muslims destroyed greenhouses and other "Jewish" infrastructure left behind? That's how much they hate them. They don't even want free stuff from them. Quote This kind of thinking is toxic and prevents people from forming any basis for real change in the situation. Denying the truth is toxic and it's dangerous. If someone keeps telling you that they're going to kill you, you shouldn't ignore that: they actually intend to kill you. Don't go out on a boat with a bunch of people like that, thinking that you're gonna change their feelings towards you. The Israelis have spent 75 years trying to find a way to make this work, while at the same time trying to prevent Hamas, etc, from amassing enough weapons to destroy Israel. Edited May 13 by WestCanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 26 minutes ago, User said: Israel has been more than willing to make peace with them, over and over again. They refuse, they reject it, they want to continue on hating Jews instead. "Israel has been willing to make peace with them". You keep saying this as if Israel just can't seem to make peace no matter how hard it tries, as if the Palestinian army is so powerful that Israel has no choice but to negotiate a peace with them instead of enforcing one. If it was any other country at war with Palestine, Palestine would have been crushed long ago, some local authoritarian puppet would have been propped up and placed in charge of the region until they had it firmly under control, and Israel would have withdrawn to let their puppet control the region by force long ago. The fact Israel has never done this is purely because they have some other motive in the conflict, and from all the colonization of Palestinian territory it's not hard to understand what those motives are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 1 hour ago, Videospirit said: Israel's blockade of gaza has been internationally classified as an occupation of the territory. Facts don't care about your feelings. No it hasn't . Sorry kiddo but saying that israel occupies Palestinian land in general does not classify the specific conditions in gaza on october 6th as an 'occupation'. Facts DO care about facts. Quote Which is the crux of the problem people have with Israel. What right does Israel have to exert any authority over them? The right of soverignty which was duly granted about 100 years ago. A little late to be worrying about that now. TODAY - people have to decide if they want to live in peace or in war. They chose war - they're dying and they're deliberately getting their children killed. That's not the israelis choice t- that's theirs. Quote Country, Nation, Territory, whatever Palestine is, it's not part of Israel. Israel treating it like Israel has any authority over it is why Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. It is a part of israel. Israel was happy to discuss them and the west bank NOT being a part, and being a stand alone nation, but the palestinians decided violence was better. How's that working out for them. Quote You say this as if it's something they needed Israel's permission for in the first place. The fact Israel is involved in the discussion of Palestinian statehood at all is outrageous. It's absolutely necessary AND reasonable. Israel isn't going anywhere. ANd palestinians don't have the horsepower to drive them into the sea as they'd like. Isreal DOES have the power to wipe out the palestinians. Yet they haven't. So - with both sides present and not going anywhere in a situation that's almost 100 years old you'd be a fool to say both sides don't get a say in what happens next. Get a grip. As it is EVERY time the palestinians attack israel liket his - they lose ground. ANd i suspect that will happen here again. I suspect gaza's days of being independent at all are over. i suspect there will be a REAL occupation and over time the palestinians will be encouraged to leave. They chose this. This is what they wanted. They COULD have chosen peace and to have their own homeland. 1 minute ago, Videospirit said: You keep saying this as if Israel just can't seem to make peace no matter how hard it tries, as if the Palestinian army is so powerful that Israel has no choice but to negotiate a peace with them instead of enforcing one. Forced peace is war. That's what they're doing now. Glad you approve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Videospirit Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 19 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: That's how your mind works because you're a bigot. Does this board not have any moderation? I'm pretty sure your conduct in this entire post is way out of line. Please refrain from further hate speech in the future. This is a forum for discussion not irrational hate filled vitriol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 1 minute ago, Videospirit said: Does this board not have any moderation? I'm pretty sure your conduct in this entire post is way out of line. Please refrain from further hate speech in the future. This is a forum for discussion not irrational hate filled vitriol. Maybe you should stop being a bigot? Then people won't call you a bigot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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