Army Guy Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Dave On: Well swearing allegiance to the Queen depoliticizes the process and it also ensure continuity. Goverments come and go but the sovereign through direct lineage is eternal. You swear allegiance not just to the current monarch but to the crown in general. Whereas the GoC is rather transient and can change at any time. My orginal piont was you can or could swear allegiance to almost anything, if our goal was only to depoliticize the process. g_bambino: The people" is nothing but a concept; can you possibly know every single Canadian (and do you include permanent residents, visitors, refugees, or not?) and whether or not you give each your allegiance? Sure, the notion of "the people" is key to forming a bigger impression of the nation, but it's useless in law, which is the realm of oaths of allegiance (along with command of the armed forces). Do you have to know every person i swear allegiance to, it can not be a broad based group such as every Canadian citizen. I mean i do know who the Queen is , i know her name, but i've never met her,....and while we are here does the Queen take an oath, i'm sure she does, is it to her subjects, or the crown, or the state if so does she know any of us. How many times has the law come into play when taking an oath, or for that matter breaking it. As Wyle pionted out there is alot of professions whom take oaths , and alot of them have been broken and yet and perhaps i'm wrong but i don't recall anyone being charged for it. So really it is a formal cereimony that has tanscended into a meaniless act in regards to the law. The US has no oath to the government; they pledge allegiance to the constitution, another inanimate object that can itself do nothing for US citizens in return for their promise. Governments, including prime ministers, are partisan and change constantly; most of the country today would loathe to swear allegiance to the government because of the controlling party's ideologies; that's precisely why we have the concept of a loyal opposition - you can oppose the government while remaining devoted to the state (as personified in the Queen). Lastly, it would be insane to have the armed forces under full control of a politician. And yet there is dozens of countries that do not have a Qeen or any other form of head of state and they seem to get along just fine. Don't get me wrong here i am perfectly fine with haveing the Queen as our figure head of state i was suggesting that it could be inter changed and would have little effect on how we do bussiness today. As for having our armed forces controled by just one man or one politician most nations in the world today are in that state now. US Pres is the commander and chief, however within thier constitution there are rules and laws he must follow, why not Canada ? Alot of Nations have even lesser controls on what thier ruler can or can not do with it's military.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) I just finished reading through all of the posts in this thread. It was refreshing to see so many posters simply reflecting on their younger days and not being embroiled in the tug-of-war of partisan politics. It was also nice to see some newer posters add their comments and hopefully, they'll drop in and participate in some other threads. And of course, there's always the usual suspects who show up with their cynical, self-absorbed viewpoints.....showing once again why at best, you can only try and please most of the people some of the time. We may not have flags waving from every doorstep but there is no denying the pride that was shown during the Olympics. I've been around the block a few times and there's nowhere else I'd want to live. The freedom we enjoy is embodied in some of the outrageous postings that appear in this forum. It's a great country. Edited June 2, 2010 by Keepitsimple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) I do know who the Queen is... Precisely. The question is: Can you say the same of "the people"? Can you decide who is and isn't of "the people", sort them out, line them up, and count them? "The people" is just a nebulous idea unless it's defined. It could be restricted to citizens only, as it is in some US states, but that seems to exclude a significant number of individuals who otherwise live under the same laws as the rest of us, some of them even able to vote for legislators who make the laws. What of permanent residents? Refugees? First Nations who don't consider themselves citizens of Canada? And can you be loyal to those in the citizenry with whose political ideologies you strongly disagree (Bloc voters, for instance)? Can they be loyal to you? All oaths of allegiance (not to be confused with oaths or pledges of citizenship or office) attempt in some way to direct the speaker’s loyalty to the source of the state's sovereign power; hence, it's either to the constitution, or the people, or the sovereign. They do so because oaths of allegiance are indeed legal in nature, being promises by the individuals reciting them to recognise and abide by the state's authority. In Canada, the oath is important enough that an MP who refuses to recite it cannot take his or her seat in parliament, and if it isn't spoken properly, it must be taken again and any votes cast by the MP before the repetition of the oath are rendered void. A piece of paper or a group of people kind of works as allegory for the state, but one is an inanimate object and the other is ill-defined at best, exclusive and/or divisive at worst (remember why we have the notion of "loyal opposition" in this country). Through their constitution, Canadians have vested their sovereignty and rule in the nonpartisan Queen, for her to hold and exercise through her council, parliament, courts, and military; "the whole of our Constitution and national life," as the Federal Court put it, is wrapped up in something (someone) precise and clear - "I do know who the Queen is" - unlike abstract metaphors open to personal interpretation. Further, the Queen does take an oath in reciprocation, at her coronation; it's not an oath of allegiance to the people, but is instead a promise "to govern the Peoples of... Canada... according to their respective laws and customs." As for having our armed forces controled by just one... politician most nations in the world today are in that state now. US Pres is the commander and chief, however within thier constitution there are rules and laws he must follow, why not Canada ? Alot of Nations have even lesser controls on what thier ruler can or can not do with it's military.... Yes, and look at what happens a lot of the time: the army is used to install and maintain dictatorship. I suppose what I said in my last post wasn't worded very well; putting any one person in control of an armed force without checks is insane. If the prime minister were made head of the armed forces over and above the Queen, what would be the check on his use of the military, with its members having sworn allegiance to him? Even in parliamentary republics, it's the president who's commander-in-chief, not the prime minister. [+] Edited June 2, 2010 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orphangnu Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I certainly remember in the 60's lining up outside our classroom in the hall every morning in our "public" Edmonton school . We recited the Lords Prayer, sang "o Canada", or God save the Queen and we recited " I salute the flag, the emblem of my country, to who( it is not a person) I pledge my love and loyalty". We also sang on Fridays "The Maple Leaf Forever". After reading Fellowtraveller's response, I understand a little more what is wrong with todays youth. I long for those simpler times. I went to elementary school and we would recite a pledge of allegiance that started out something like this: "I pledge allegiance to the flag, the emblem of my country..." We would also recite the Lord's Prayer and sing "O Canada", "God Save the Queen" or "The Maple Leaf Forever" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle 3 dogs Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hi, I would like to hear from anyone who can remember the pledge we used to make to the Canadian flag during "morning exercises" at school in the 60's and 70's. I distinctly remember after entering class, singing 'God Save the Queen', reciting a quick quote from the Bible, and then saluting the Flag and saying something like " I salute the flag, the emblem of my country, to which...." or something along those lines. Anyone else in the forum that remembers this and can tell me the pledge? I have checked the maple leaf web site and it states there is no recognized pledge. But we did this for years at school. I am from Alberta. Was this unique to our schools? Hope someone can help. Regards We never did that in Saskatchewan in the 50's & 60's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I can't think of anywhere I'd rather live, but i wouldn't be so arrogant to say it's the best country in the world...I'm sure there are other great places as well. Part of being Canadian is being modest and secure in the knowledge that we doing well in the world, and not feeling the need to be strutting around annoying everyone else like our neighbours to the south, no one likes a braggart. I was wondering how far into the thread I'd have to read before someone brought up the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 ...they pledge allegiance to the constitution.... No we don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 No we don't. From the US Oath of Allegiance: I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same... US Citizenship and Immigration Services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 From the US Oath of Allegiance: So immigrants who wish to become US citizens do, not "US citizens" as you stated. I'm a US citizen and never in my entire life have I pledged allegiance to the constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I'm a US citizen and never in my entire life have I pledged allegiance to the constitution. All citizens owe the same allegiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 All citizens owe the same allegiance. I don't care what you think we owe - we do not pledge allegiance to the Constitution, as you claimed. I repeat. US citizens do not make that pledge - immigrants desiring citizenship make that pledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I don't care what you think we owe - we do not pledge allegiance to the Constitution, as you claimed. I repeat. US citizens do not make that pledge - immigrants desiring citizenship make that pledge. If you want to be pedantic about this, I never said citizens declare allegiance to the constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I don't care what you think we owe - we do not pledge allegiance to the Constitution, as you claimed. I repeat. US citizens do not make that pledge - immigrants desiring citizenship make that pledge. Yep...the USians pledge allegiance to the flag that represents the American republic....since 1892. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hi, I would like to hear from anyone who can remember the pledge we used to make to the Canadian flag during "morning exercises" at school in the 60's and 70's. I distinctly remember after entering class, singing 'God Save the Queen', reciting a quick quote from the Bible, and then saluting the Flag and saying something like " I salute the flag, the emblem of my country, to which...." or something along those lines. Anyone else in the forum that remembers this and can tell me the pledge? I have checked the maple leaf web site and it states there is no recognized pledge. But we did this for years at school. I am from Alberta. Was this unique to our schools? Hope someone can help. Regards Must have been, we didn't do it in BC. I seem to remember the Lords Prayer being said way back when and Oh Canada and The Queen being played at assemblies and such. No pledge though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_ON Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) . Edited May 25, 2011 by Dave_ON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 All citizens owe the same allegiance. Nope.....read AW's words again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Nope.....read AW's words again. AW's words do nothing to negate the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 AW's words do nothing to negate the fact. Here s the gist....AW said and you replied....I'm a US citizen and never in my entire life have I pledged allegiance to the constitution. All citizens owe the same allegiance. They pleadge allegiance to the flag , not the constitution. (Socialist words or not ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 All citizens owe the same allegiance. They pleadge allegiance to the flag , not the constitution. (Socialist words or not ) All US citizens owe allegiance to the Constitution on their birth. If they weren't born in the US, they have to state that they owe their allegiance to the Constitution as part of becoming a citizen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Here s the gist....AW said and you replied....I'm a US citizen and never in my entire life have I pledged allegiance to the constitution.All citizens owe the same allegiance. They pleadge allegiance to the flag , not the constitution. (Socialist words or not ) Socialist words, eh? Them's fightin words ......... Americans hate anything pertaining to socialism ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 If you want to be pedantic about this, I never said citizens declare allegiance to the constitution. Ummmm. Yes, you did (emphasis mine): The US has no oath to the government; they pledge allegiance to the constitution, another inanimate object that can itself do nothing for US citizens in return for their promise. "US citizens ... their promise." It has nothing to do with being pedantic and everything to do with pointing out that you are wrong. US citizens do not pledge allegiance to the constitution; they make no such promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouterjim Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hi, I would like to hear from anyone who can remember the pledge we used to make to the Canadian flag during "morning exercises" at school in the 60's and 70's. I distinctly remember after entering class, singing 'God Save the Queen', reciting a quick quote from the Bible, and then saluting the Flag and saying something like " I salute the flag, the emblem of my country, to which...." or something along those lines. Anyone else in the forum that remembers this and can tell me the pledge? I have checked the maple leaf web site and it states there is no recognized pledge. But we did this for years at school. I am from Alberta. Was this unique to our schools? Hope someone can help. Regards I went to school all through the 60's, and never said any pledge to the flag. We had a morning Bible reading, and the Lord's Prayer, but never sang God Save the Queen, Oh Canada or anything ewlse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Socialist words, eh? Them's fightin words ......... Americans hate anything pertaining to socialism ......... Ooops , not 'socialist words" but written by a socialist. And amended many times since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Ooops , not 'socialist words" but written by a socialist. And amended many times since. Socialist words or words written by a socialist ... same thing to us socialist hatin' Americans. And yes, amended a few times - unfortunately. "Under God" has no place in the pledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) US citizens do not pledge allegiance to the constitution; they make no such promise. And it can't be taken from my words that I said US citizens pledge allegiance to that country's constitution. "They" and "citizens" in my sentence aren't necessarily the same thing. After all, as smallc rightly points out, all US citizens, whether born as such or naturalised by taking an oath, uphold a promise to give allegiance to the constitution and an inanimate object can do nothing for them in return for that. Of course, this is a game of pure pedantry. Your specialty. [+] Edited May 25, 2011 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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