Jordan Peterson: Our rotten, rotting universities

[impartialobserver]

2 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Actually I have no idea that your numbers are correct.  Mine come directly from Harvard themselves:

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

Feel free to throw around childish insults, it's just cover for the fact that you still haven't provided ANY evidence that the fields you listed have a rightwing political slant being taught in the classroom over the last decade or so.  "They must have a political slant because because engineers are frat boys" isn't evidence.  Unless you're one of those "math is racist" loons.

In fact, if the most popular fields in academia were pushing a bunch of Trumpster chud nonsense that every student came out parroting and implementing in most corporate, NGO, and government workplaces you'd be freaking out and Hardner would be slamming it, as you should, and so would I.

your link shows intended major not actual major. Do you have any data as to what the breakdown of majors is for students who have attended for 2+ years. Most freshmen change their major. They come in with high ideals and then practical reality changes your views. Your starting combing job ads and after a few months of this.. you discover some majors do not translate to a job directly. 

[Moonlight Graham]

43 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

If you're an engineer, you've just proven my point.

Even if he's an engineer you haven't proven anything.  Correlation doesn't equal causation.  Your logic is "Computer Science students watch anime more than the average student, therefore computer science is teaching pro-anime propaganda in the classroom".

[Moonlight Graham]

2 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

your link shows intended major not actual major. Do you have any data as to what the breakdown of majors is for students who have attended for 2+ years. Most freshmen change their major. They come in with high ideals and then practical reality changes your views. Your starting combing job ads and after a few months of this.. you discover some majors do not translate to a job directly. 

I tried.  You're free to do a search.

Edited April 4, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[impartialobserver]

5 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I tried.  You're free to do a search.

https://oira.harvard.edu/factbook/fact-book-degrees/

this is degrees awarded but I think that the more telling number is the composition of majors in a cohort from year 2 to completion. Not everyone completes the degree. 

[Black Dog]

27 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Actually I have no idea that your numbers are correct.  Mine come directly from Harvard themselves:

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

This is from Harvard College, which is the undergraduate school of Harvard University so it doesn't actually represent the whole institution and doesn't include Law, Business, Government, Engineering and Applied Sciences etc etc.

Quote

Feel free to throw around childish insults, it's just cover for the fact that you still haven't provided ANY evidence that the fields you listed have a rightwing political slant being taught in the classroom over the last decade or so.  "They must have a political slant because because engineers are frat boys" isn't evidence.  Unless you're one of those "math is racist" loons.

Why would i provide evidence for a claim I never made, dummy?

Edited April 4, 2024 by Black Dog

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Why would i provide evidence for a claim I never made, dummy?

So your claim has nothing to do with what we've talking about?  Ok great then we'll just ignore it since it's totally irrelevant.  Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

Edited April 4, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[Black Dog]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

So your claim has nothing to do with what we've talking about?  Ok great then we'll just ignore it since it's totally irrelevant.  Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

You could go re-read the posts and get an appropriate adult to explain it to you. I dunno how much more clear I can get than this:

Quote

Anyway, the idea that elite colleges and universities are churning out student radicals who emerge to destroy the system and aren't simply factories for reproducing institutional power is completely at odds with the entire history of these places.

 

Edited April 4, 2024 by Black Dog

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I apologize or respond with Mea Culpa when my own methods fail, so please do.

2. I don't see it as a debate. I'm asking you to educate me on the scale of those the fires and unrest in those videos.  I haven't said you were wrong yet.

3. Good to hear. Please post it then. What is the impact of the riots that you have videos on. Wait... Didn't they stop or are people still rioting over this stuff?

4. I am old enough to get the reference... Ray Stevens recorded "The streak" about 1975 if I remember correctly.

2. Mike...the lit fire to a cop shop. There's no comparison between the damage done by progressives vs the trucker convoy.

3. https://fee.org/articles/george-floyd-riots-caused-record-setting-2-billion-in-damage-new-report-says-here-s-why-the-true-cost-is-even-higher/

https://globalnews.ca/news/8602966/freedom-convoy-economic-impact/

Now you know...

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1....the lit fire to a cop shop. There's no comparison between the damage done by progressives vs the trucker convoy.

1. Think meta. Point is videos won't tell you anything big picture.

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, Black Dog said:

You could go re-read the posts and get an appropriate adult to explain it to you. I dunno how much more clear I can get than this:

And we all know that's a bunch of hogwash.  Becoming a lawyer or engineer or computer scientist with all that conservative indoctrination in the classroom that doesn't exist and you've shown zero evidence for....oh noes!  Circular argument.

Check your white privilege and dictionary definition of racism and take the L, you and your radical ilk are a bunch of nutters.  You're a perfect example of the stupidity that western universities have been churning out.  But i'm sure you went to trade school right?

[Nationalist]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Think meta. Point is videos won't tell you anything big picture.

What big picture? One protest went wild in the streets, the other blocked the streets and had a block party.

What big picture are you thinking of?

[Black Dog]

16 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

And we all know that's a bunch of hogwash.  Becoming a lawyer or engineer or computer scientist with all that conservative indoctrination in the classroom that doesn't exist and you've shown zero evidence for....oh noes!  Circular argument.

Again, if you're too stupid to understand that political worldviews can come through in ways other than overt indoctrination, there's no conversation to be had.

Quote

Check your white privilege and dictionary definition of racism and take the L, you and your radical ilk are a bunch of nutters.  You're a perfect example of the stupidity that western universities have been churning out.  But i'm sure you went to trade school right?

I literally did lmao.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Black Dog

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Again, if you're too stupid to understand that political worldviews can come through in ways other than overt indoctrination, there's no conversation to be had.

Insults are what people do when they don't have an actual argument.  You're just showing us that you've got NOTHING. So we're going to reject your argument.  

[quote]I literally did lmao.[/quote]

And I'm black.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[Black Dog]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Insults are what people do when they don't have an actual argument.  You're just showing us that you've got NOTHING. So we're going to reject your argument.  

LOL this is just a pu$$y's way of getting out of an argument they're losing.

Quote

And I'm black.

Yeah but I'm not lying like you do.

[Moonlight Graham]

Just now, Black Dog said:

LOL this is just a pu$$y's way of getting out of an argument they're losing.

Evidence or STFU.

Just now, Black Dog said:

Yeah but I'm not lying like you do.

Yeah you're lying.  Someone in the trades doesn't sit at home all day everyday rage-posting on the internet.

[Black Dog]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:46 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Evidence or STFU.

Yeah you're lying.  Someone in the trades doesn't sit at home all day everyday rage-posting on the internet.

I didn't say I was in the trades now.

[suds]

Here's a liberal I can identify with. A liberal who can actually think for himself....

 

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, suds said:

Here's a liberal I can identify with. A liberal who can actually think for himself....

 

Aside from expressing vehement opposition to the progressive worldview, and pointing out the most ridiculous and contradictory examples... I don't see any progress in raising alarms about this ethic.

DeSantis and his crew moved on...so it's now in the domain of comedians to poke at it.  

[Guest]

On 4/4/2024 at 8:52 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Beyond the gnashing of the teeth and plaintiff wailing, is there any substantive evidence that social progressivity is some kind of threat?

Progress is a good thing.

But in every movement for the good of society, there are extremists who will attempt to hijack and ruin the movement for those who pushed through with good intent.

I look at Black Lives Matter. So many riots. Cost billions. Many black owned businesses were seriously vandalized if not destroyed.

They did more damage to black communities, than good. Crime rate increases, and other issues aligned within the consequences of putting all police under the same umbrella, socially. Under guise of good intent.

I also look at universities suppressing free thought, by sensorship that often punishes those with dissenting views.

In guise of being equal, putting safe spaces for racial minorities (among others) that literally are more divisive than they are helpful.

Trying to wash down generations of white guilt, via shaming. 

These are all practices growing in such environments. 

This level of progressive thinking is a threat to meritocracy. Is a threat to nuclear families. Is a threat to black communities advancing socially.

Progress in advancing others, is good. If that advancement actually holds people back, it should be questioned. Definitely has no business going unchallenged in an educational environment. 

I see so many debates held at universities turning violent, which often showcases some of that decay socially.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Progress is a good thing.

But in every movement for the good of society, there are extremists who will attempt to hijack and ruin the movement for those who pushed through with good intent.

I look at Black Lives Matter. So many riots. Cost billions. Many black owned businesses were seriously vandalized if not destroyed.

They did more damage to black communities, than good. Crime rate increases, and other issues aligned within the consequences of putting all police under the same umbrella, socially. Under guise of good intent.

I also look at universities suppressing free thought, by sensorship that often punishes those with dissenting views.

In guise of being equal, putting safe spaces for racial minorities (among others) that literally are more divisive than they are helpful.

Trying to wash down generations of white guilt, via shaming. 

These are all practices growing in such environments. 

This level of progressive thinking is a threat to meritocracy. Is a threat to nuclear families. Is a threat to black communities advancing socially.

Progress in advancing others, is good. If that advancement actually holds people back, it should be questioned. Definitely has no business going unchallenged in an educational environment. 

I see so many debates held at universities turning violent, which often showcases some of that decay socially.

I don't hear much from Black Lives Matter these days.  

The complaining about such movements, is rather akin to complaints about Q-anon, in my books, in that they're just complaining about archetypes, even real archetypes.  

We still have markets and competition so that should take care of meritocracy.  My company seems to be majority non-white and merit is never in question here.  Grist for the mill, it seems.

[Guest]

On 4/9/2024 at 9:56 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I don't hear much from Black Lives Matter these days. 

Wasn't dissenting views on this movement, akin of racism at the height of the movement? 

Also, makes it very hard to critique something in that light, publicly as a result. 

On 4/9/2024 at 9:56 AM, Michael Hardner said:

We still have markets and competition so that should take care of meritocracy. 

Still having something, isn't pointing to it not being eroded, or worse it  being attacked or threatened.

We still have a planet where climate is still liveable.

We still have many things socially that are under threat.

When you focus on the color of the skin of a potential candidate, vs their merit regardless of it  you literally are part of the problem.

Justin Trudeau ran on equalizing genders in his cabinet. On paper, this is amazing.

In action, you're literally focusing on what is between a candidates legs than their ears. Running an economy, no less.

I don't know a single woman who has fixed or worked on an economy using her vagina as a prime tool to do so. Getting a man to spend money on it, doesn't count, albeit could qualify as contributing to the economy.

[Michael Hardner]

26 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Wasn't dissenting views on this movement, akin of racism at the height of the movement? 

2. We still have a planet where climate is still liveable.

Justin Trudeau ran on equalizing genders in his cabinet. On paper, this is amazing.

 

1. Probably not since Biden himself condemned the violence. 

2. Right, but capitalism ensures that economic solutions are found for success. It's baked in. If you replace that with Central planning, then we're talking about something problematic. Luckily even China isn't doing that anymore. 

There are more than enough women who are qualified to be in cabinet.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Probably not since Biden himself condemned the violence. 

But he didn't condemn what the movement was doing to the black community.

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are more than enough women who are qualified to be in cabinet.

Not saying there aren't. Why not run based on competent people being hired, vs advertising you at all costs will have 50% women in your cabinet?

I was offered a position with the RCMP a few years back. I was a high scoring black candidate in testing. However,  there were potential officers who were white who had scored higher.

They were looking to fill a set percentage of people who had my skin color, so it would have been irrelevant how high a score a white counterpart had, if they were trying to hit targets on diversity.

Am not saying I wouldn't have been a highly qualified police officer, but it wasn't lost on me that they weren't picking from the very best.

I pride myself on having earned every job that I have had. I beat out tough competition.

This wasn't the line reason I opted for another opportunity, but one can't deny you're diluting the talent pool when your top focus isn't the talent.

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. But he didn't condemn what the movement was doing to the black community.

2. Not saying there aren't. Why not run based on competent people being hired, vs advertising you at all costs will have 50% women in your cabinet?

3. I was offered a position with the RCMP a few years back. I was a high scoring black candidate in testing. However,  there were potential officers who were white who had scored higher.  They were looking to fill a set percentage of people who had my skin color, so it would have been irrelevant how high a score a white counterpart had, if they were trying to hit targets on diversity. Am not saying I wouldn't have been a highly qualified police officer, but it wasn't lost on me that they weren't picking from the very best.

 

1. "What it was doing" is an opinion.  I don't think he had an opinion that BLM was impacting the Black community the way you think it was.  And now we have pivoted onto a new point - since I addressed your point that dissent was akin to racism.  

2. Now you are asking about the politics.  Well, there are a lot of women voters and Trudeau's brand is to care about that.  My point was that you can still run a government with 50% women or even 100% if you wanted to.  It's not 1965.

3. "Best" is subjective, and some quiz that some egghead came up doesn't mean squat.  Nor does DEI for that matter.  The morality of the day is that people just expect racial, gender diversity because of the decades-long backlash against racism and sexism.  Is it right ?  No.  But if you had been hired, I'm sure - as you say - it would have been fine.  But "morality" isn't logical on any side of the coin  Nor is it intelligent either, which is why racism existed at that level back in the day.

So - points 1, 2 were a pivot and point 3 I largely agree with you.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, there are a lot of women voters and Trudeau's brand is to care about that.  My point was that you can

I am aware as a leader, that every single employee that I have, is an extension of my reputation. The business reputation. 

Caring about women, would mean you would want to put thus women in the best possible light. 

Hiring incompetent women, would totally damage the reputation of women, plus the leader who hired them.

To me this brand was damaged, when he not only couldn't keep his own woman satisfied enough to stick it out and hold appearances, but put women in positions at times, that looked both out of place, and clueless.

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

My point was that you can still run a government with 50% women or even 100% if you wanted to.  

Of course. If they are competent  or if the men are competent, we aren't having this conversation.

He's hired a few incredibly incompetent women. They shine because he put emphasis on their vaginas vs their skills.