Kimmy on Alberta on Rabble

[August1991]

I know that it is against Maple Leaf forum rules to refer to a poster in a thread title, but rules are made to be broken. To wit, I have no idea what rules are for references to other forums (fora?).

Kimmy wrote a long, fascinating post on rabble.ca. There was a sort-of critical reponse, but the post was largely ignored. Life goes on. The best laid plans of mice and men.

Not quite. I copy Kimmy's post here.

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Hello to everyone,

I stumbled upon this as I was prowling the internet reading reaction to the election. And, though I had planned to keep quiet and stay out of it, I felt that perhaps I should respond to some of the ideas raised in this thread. Having passed by from time to time and seen how this place works, I am already pretty sure this is going to go over like a lead zeppelin, but what would we be if we didn’t at least try.

I think I recognize Cartman from elsewhere, and I suspect that I know No Yards from elsewhere under a different name, so if that’s the case, then hi guys.

To the person who raised the spectre of Alberta separatists: it’s just that; a spectre. It’s not a remotely popular movement; even at the height of discontent with Ottawa, separatism polls in the single-digits in Alberta, and most of that support comes from people who are simply frustrated or exasperated with the federal government. In the wake of Harper’s win on Monday, it probably polls at near zero. Among those who do sincerely believe in Alberta separation, there’s no single dominant theme, but some of following ideas are often cited:

--the belief that an independent Alberta would have greater prosperity.

--the belief that population distribution guarantees that the interests of Albertans will always be secondary to a federal government that’s more focused on appeasing more populous regions of the country.

--some believe that they are disrespected or resented by central Canadians.

--some even believe they could establish a theocracy in Alberta.

I have no wish to advocate or argue on behalf of any of these ideas. I just wish to point out that there’s no single unifying cause among Alberta separatists, and that Alberta separatism is a very small movement in any event.

Although the number of Albertans who sincerely support separation is very small, the number of Albertans who have no faith in the federal government is absolutely enormous. One word can sum up the attitude of every adult Albertan I know towards our national government: cynicism. And although there is some euphoria at Harper’s victory (“our guy” finally won) it is tinged with the suspicion that if Harper doesn’t get Joe Clarked in short order, he will turn out to be “as bad as the rest of them.” Meaning he’ll probably be corrupt, kowtow to vested interests, and consumed with winning support in southern Ontario and Quebec to the exclusion of everything else. “Just like the rest of them.”

However, I don’t think this is an Alberta thing. I think that the same feeling is probably found, to varying degrees, in other provinces as well, except possibly in Ontario. Perhaps instead of discussing this as an Alberta issue, people should recognize it as a manifestation of a national issue: the need for democratic and electoral reform.

Something that I and many Albertans took offense to were the comments toward the end of the campaign made by Buzz Hargrove and Paul Martin, and the advertising by the Bloc Quebecois, all focusing on the fact that Stephen Harper is from Alberta. I was disappointed by the apparent nonchalance the rest of Canada had toward those statements. Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if they’d said “Quebec” instead of Alberta? In fact there’s no need to imagine, the Reform Party aired ill-conceived ads in 1997 griping about more Quebec Prime Ministers, and were thoroughly pilloried for it deservedly so. Why was the national reaction so tepid this time when the Liberal and BQ tried to make Harper’s home town a campaign issue? If regionalism is fiction and “we’re all Canadian” then why did Martin and Hargrove and Duceppe feel there was political mileage to be made by emphasizing that Harper was from “out there”? Perhaps this is another reason to support electoral reform: maybe Martin wouldn’t have said something like that if the 22% of Albertans who voted for him in 2004 mattered on election night; under First-Past-The-Post those voters don’t change anything.

To the claim that the provinces are the source of squabbling and disunity, I disagree. If one looks inside a province or even a city, one finds the same kind of disagreements: some areas feel that other areas take precedence. “Why is the city spending all that money on a freeway interchange in the southwest, when our sidewalks are crumbling in the northeast? The city cares more about the rich people in the southwest than the poor people in the northeast!” “The province doesn’t care about voters in rural areas. We need more services, but the government spends all its money on the big cities because that’s where the votes are.” Without the provincial level of government, you’ll still have the same dilemma in Canada: people will still feel that “too much money gets spent over there” and “not enough money gets spent over here.” People in “the regions” will still feel that their interests are poorly represented in federal government, even if “the regions” ceased to exist as provinces. The provincial governments are the most powerful advocate that people in less populous regions have.

The idea of giving more powers to the federal government so that people will appreciate the federal government more would be a mistake. Consolidating more powers in the federal government would only have the effect of giving voters in less populous provinces even less influence over decisions that affect them. It would only increase the resentment and dissatisfaction towards the federal government in “alienated” regions of the country.

And to Cartman, on the issue of whether Albertans have anything to be proud of and whether we should wear little poppies on our shirts in honor of the dinosaurs who died for our freedoms...

My ancestors didn’t come to “Canada” 100 years ago, they weren’t brought here to live in Montreal or Southern Ontario or Halifax-- proper English and French Canadians in established areas wanted nothing to do with my ancestors: the illiterate, garlic-smelling, inferior people that Clifford Sifton was recruiting to settle the prairies. They were recruited to come here, to Alberta, to fill the empty space.

You can find their home on this map...

http://www.canadainfolink.ca/alberta_relief.jpg

...in the Peace River lowlands between the Caribou Mountains and the Buffalo Head Hills-- smack dab between the “1006” and “915” near the top of the map. That is remote country even now, but at the time the idea of “Canada” was something that only existed on paper there. It didn’t exist until my ancestors built it.

Sifton lured thousands of people-- like my mom’s people, religious pacifists from Eastern Europe, and my dad’s people, Swedes who’d settled in Minnesota-- with promises. Some were genuine-- respect for their religious beliefs, free land-- and some were false (Sifton had writers create fictional tales grossly exaggerating the prosperity and climate of the place, and banned any mention of actual prairie temperatures.)

They came, and they did as they promised. They built farms and roads and little communities and grew grain for the mills back east. They lived an extraordinarily hard life. A number of my ancestors on both sides died very young, and others endured lifelong disability, caused by the harsh climate and almost complete lack of access to medical care. Members of my family died deaths they wouldn’t have died if they’d lived come to southern Ontario instead of northern Alberta. Even in the early 1960s my dad lived in a sod house on the family land during summer; in winter he and his siblings lived like foster children, separated and sent off to board with families in nearby towns so that they could attend school. They didn’t have a “real” house until the mid 1960s, and they didn’t have electricity until 1967.

And now 100 years after my ancestors came and built something out of nothing, the roads and little communities support not just farms but also booming resource industries; the great-great-grandchildren of those illiterate, garlic-scenting peasants are now not just farming but also building industry that’s very important to Canada’s future security and prosperity.

So yes, I am very proud of this province and what my family sacrificed so much to build. The proverbial “blood, sweat, and tears” are very real to me, because the people who shed the blood, sweat, and tears are my grandparents and people like them. I know them, I’ve talked to them, I love them, and personally appreciate what they did. I’ve visited the ruins of what used to be their first home in Canada. How could I feel the same sort of personal connection to other areas that were established long before my ancestors even arrived in North America?

Perhaps you’re thinking “well, it’s all Canada,” and in a sense that’s true but that’s not the whole story. I don’t feel as though the “Canada” that people talk about in history class or CBC documentaries are the same Canada that my ancestors built. I never hear talk of people like my ancestors or the contribution they made to this country; dialogue about our history seems to center squarely around “two founding nations” type talk that bears no relationship to what my ancestors built. If English and French settlers built Canada, then what did my ancestors build?

If people are wondering why Albertans for some reason feel distinct from older parts of Canada, I would suggest that it is because the version of Canada that we hear repeated over and over by central Canadians bears little resemblance to our own history.

-k

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EDITED by moderator to add link to the original post:

The original post is found in the middle of this page: Unity - Post Election

[Montgomery Burns]

Kimmy is one brave lady....walking into Canada's fever swamp version (the CBC said that Rabble had "the pulse of the nation") of the USA's Democratic Underground....

[shoop]

Wow. Does anyone have a link to that?

[geoffrey]

Kimmy, that couldn't have been better said.

As a relatively recent Alberta (I moved from Ontario not so long ago, but long enough to consider myself a Calgarian and not a Torontonian) my family doesn't have long ties here, but in the more traditional settlement grounds of Northern Ontario and Quebec. Nonetheless, I have no question that Albertans are different then the rest of Canadians, and I like this lifestyle much better. But Albertans are not 'Americans' like those from the East think (and I know because I was one of them). Albertans are proud to be Canadians, and proud of our contributions to the country. We just want a little respect.

There is no doubt that Canada needs electoral and democratic reform. Albertans want to feel like, to borrow from the Quebec boy himself, "masters of our own house." It's sad when we see people from central Canada make decisions for Albertans. Though we have a strong belief in the value, culturally, socially and economically, in Canada as a nation, provinces do need more autonomy is making choices that are best for their citizens.

Kimmy raises the point about Calgary, and people in the Southwest getting new highways (which I resent because we really really need new highways down here Kimmy, our traffic sucks!) and people in the North East, who generally are less fortunate, get upset about sidewalks in disarray. This essientially is true for Albertans and Ontario. The problem is people in the North East don't feel like they are in control of their hard earned money, and this is greatly compounded when you can't even see where your money is being spent without taking a 5 hour plane ride.

Kimmy, you've got alot of awesome points in that post you've made, and I applaude you for it. Kimmy for Premier!

[PocketRocket]

So yes, I am very proud of this province and what my family sacrificed so much to build. The proverbial “blood, sweat, and tears” are very real to me, because the people who shed the blood, sweat, and tears are my grandparents and people like them.

Bravo.

Well said.

[kimmy]

Aw, thanks guys And thanks to August for thinking enough of that to cross-post it, even if it's not exactly within forum rules.

I found my experience on Babble to be ... well, it's a lot like other message boards, actually.

There are some bright people who are willing to talk intelligently about ideas. There are some people who are there to just spew bile and don't wish to let facts get in the way of a good rant. I imagine that Black Dog or Newbie find visiting Mapleleafweb much the same as I found Babble. I'd say that there are less balancing viewpoints at Babble than there are here at MLW, and I get the sense that a lot of the Babblers are not used to discussing ideas with people who don't agree with them. One of the things I've enjoyed about MLW is that there have been thoughtful members with a variety of viewpoints, but over the past few months I've felt that the balance has been declining... some of the better "lefties" don't participate as much (or at all) anymore.

Another thing my visit to Babble has made me appreciate is that Greg is a good moderator. The thread I signed up to participate in was locked because a moderator decided it was "too long", and my critic never got a chance to reply to my follow-up to his criticisms. I understand that discussing same-sex-marriage is a banning offense there, yet in other threads we find vicious attacks on people who aren't "progressive." A lot of the progressives seemed excited by the idea that Harper's asthma might kill him. I think MLW tends to have a better attitude, although the Gore thread gives me pause...

Anyway, I signed up at Babble to say some things I thought should be said, but now the novelty has pretty much worn off.

-k

{future ex-Babbler}

[Hicksey]

Well articulated and something that needed to be said.

The best part is about the Calgary vs Quebec leaders.

I thought the tone of the ads ran about Harper and not letting a guy from out there run the country was that of insult--as if being from Calgary or just Alberta in general were something to be ashamed of.

With such disgusting comments being made by the Liberals in their campaign, I find it hard to believe so many people voted for them unless they feel the same way. And the very same people who voted for them wonder why this country is so divided.

[Minimus Maximus]

To Kimmy,

My own family history is very similar to what you have described in the post above and I would like to thank you for saying what I feel, but could never articulate in such an eloquent and straightforward manner. In fact I would also like to thank August1991 as I find yourself and Kimmy to be voices of reason on many issues where reason is drowned out by partisan squabbling. There are others, but you two are the most prominent and consistant in your fairness and your abilities to push partisan opinion to the side and search for the unbiased truth.

Kimmy, your statements concerning Alberta separation are right on the money. I was very negative when I first started reading political forums as many of our fellow Canadian's seem to have a hatred for everything Albertan and cannot seem to distinguish rhetoric from reality. This has only resulted in compounding the separatist bs which I believe is nothing more than Albertan's lashing out at those who wish to put us down. As in any lovers spat the words, "I hate you and want to leave" are more a cry for resolution than a true desire for separation.

As an Albertan I find it extremely offensive when fellow Canadians claim that our prosperity came with little or no effort on our parts. I have worked countless hours in the worst of conditions spending much of my time away from family and friends, the moneys great but if you have ever been to places like Red Earth Ab. you would understand that there are no fringe benefits. To those Canadians who think that we Albertan's simply woke up one day with the lap dog of prosperity licking our collective noses I say, you couldn't walk what we Albertan's plow in a day.

Although I don't post here very often I do read this forum as I find it a valuable source of information in order for me to learn more about my country and its politics. My own level of knowledge is not up to snuff with many on here, but I read the links and some of the posts in order to gain a better understanding of the issues which affect us all.

PS, Gotta get back to work now, just wanted to say I effin' love ya Kimmy (please don't tell my wife that I said that).

[fellowtraveller]

Great thread, thanks Kimmy. That is an excellent summary of Alberta sentiment.

[Riverwind]

As an Albertan I find it extremely offensive when fellow Canadians claim that our prosperity came with little or no effort on our parts.

Canadians from all parts of this country have had to work hard for what they have. Stories like Kimmy's exist all across this country. The difference is farming in Ontario, fishing in Newfoundland or logging in BC don't provide the same rate of return as oil and gas. My own grandparents grew up in sod huts on the prairies too.

I have worked countless hours in the worst of conditions spending much of my time away from family and friends, the moneys great but if you have ever been to places like Red Earth Ab

Most people in Alberta do not work in the oil fields - they live comfortable lives in urban centers like Calgary and Edmonton collecting their Ralph bucks. Oil is a extremely valuable resource and Alberta won the geographical lottery in that respect. It is the height of arrogance to presume that Albertans deserve this windfall more than equally hard working people in the rest of the country.

That said, I would not expect my neighbor to share their 6/49 lottery winnings just because I thought they did not deserve it any more than me. However, I would be very annoyed if my neighbor ran around justifying why they 'deserve' the money and others don't. A little humility in the face of good fortune goes a long way.

[geoffrey]

As an Albertan I find it extremely offensive when fellow Canadians claim that our prosperity came with little or no effort on our parts.

Canadians from all parts of this country have had to work hard for what they have. Stories like Kimmy's exist all across this country. The difference is farming in Ontario, fishing in Newfoundland or logging in BC don't provide the same rate of return as oil and gas. My own grandparents grew up in sod huts on the prairies too.

I have worked countless hours in the worst of conditions spending much of my time away from family and friends, the moneys great but if you have ever been to places like Red Earth Ab

Most people in Alberta do not work in the oil fields - they live comfortable lives in urban centers like Calgary and Edmonton collecting their Ralph bucks. Oil is a extremely valuable resource and Alberta won the geographical lottery in that respect. It is the height of arrogance to presume that Albertans deserve this windfall more than equally hard working people in the rest of the country.

That said, I would not expect my neighbor to share their 6/49 lottery winnings just because I thought they did not deserve it any more than me. However, I would be very annoyed if my neighbor ran around justifying why they 'deserve' the money and others don't. A little humility in the face of good fortune goes a long way.

Acutally Sparhawk, you are statistically wrong. The Albertan Participation rate is the highest in the country, at 72.9%, 5% higher than any other province. Add in the lowest unemployment rate and yes, Albertans do work more than anyone else, this is a fact.

Labour Statistics Here

Albertans work more and harder and deserve the money. Lobby your politicans to encourage the same in your Province and you'll get cheques too.

[Riverwind]

Acutally Sparhawk, you are statistically wrong. The Albertan Participation rate is the highest in the country, at 72.9%, 5% higher than any other province. Add in the lowest unemployment rate and yes, Albertans do work more than anyone else, this is a fact.

Oil brings in money which creates jobs. The net result is more people work. You are confusing cause and effect.

[geoffrey]

Acutally Sparhawk, you are statistically wrong. The Albertan Participation rate is the highest in the country, at 72.9%, 5% higher than any other province. Add in the lowest unemployment rate and yes, Albertans do work more than anyone else, this is a fact.

Oil brings in money which creates jobs. The net result is more people work.

That explains the unemployment rate, not participation being that much higher.

I'd blame it on lack of social programs... oh wait, this has turned into a good thing...

[Black Dog]

Albertans work more and harder and deserve the money. Lobby your politicans to encourage the same in your Province and you'll get cheques too.

The prosperity cheques had absolutley nothing to do with how hard anyone works. It's a direct result of the high energy prices which are filling Alberta's coffers.

[Riverwind]

I'd blame it on lack of social programs... oh wait, this has turned into a good thing...

If oil prices collapse you will see the labour force participation rate drop and the demand for social programs increase. Again you are confusing cause and effect.

[geoffrey]

I'd blame it on lack of social programs... oh wait, this has turned into a good thing...

If oil prices collapse you will see the labour force participation rate drop and the demand for social programs increase. Again you are confusing cause and effect.

Even at $20 a barrel Alberta was leading so explain how...

I'm not saying Albertans are genetically better or anything, just saying our government/economic situation creates a different attitude.

[shoop]

You gotta remember a couple things. Ralphie balanced the budget when oil was less than $20 a barrel. No help offered to Alberta by any other province at that time.

Sure Alberta got lucky with the oil. But so did Ontario and Quebec with the huge U.S. population bases just south of the Great Lakes. That market was not a result of Ontario or Quebec industriousness. Needless to say, it is easy to whine about how *lucky* a more prosperous neighbour is without looking at the luck you also have received.

If oil prices collapse you will see the labour force participation rate drop and the demand for social programs increase. Again you are confusing cause and effect.

[Black Dog]

Even at $20 a barrel Alberta was leading so explain how...

I'm not saying Albertans are genetically better or anything, just saying our government/economic situation creates a different attitude.

I was but a mere tyke during the recession of the '80s that killed the last boom, but I remember well how Albertans, when faced with adversity, pulled up their socks, tightened their belts and stuck their hands out. Happened during the B.S.E. crisis too, when all those tough, self-sufficient farmers and ranchers came screaming to the government for a bailout (the bulk of which the government promptly handed over to U.S. based meat-packers). Yup, Albertans are rugged individualists alright...when it suits them.

[Hydraboss]

Even at $20 a barrel Alberta was leading so explain how...

I'm not saying Albertans are genetically better or anything, just saying our government/economic situation creates a different attitude.

I was but a mere tyke during the recession of the '80s that killed the last boom, but I remember well how Albertans, when faced with adversity, pulled up their socks, tightened their belts and stuck their hands out. Happened during the B.S.E. crisis too, when all those tough, self-sufficient farmers and ranchers came screaming to the government for a bailout (the bulk of which the government promptly handed over to U.S. based meat-packers). Yup, Albertans are rugged individualists alright...when it suits them.

Just curious as to whom you are referring. "stuck their hands out"? There was no help forthcoming when the patch collapsed. I remember driving through Nisku (the major industrial park) and seeing gates chained shut that were open the day before. The impact was devastating. And yet I know of not one single person who went running and "stuck their hands out". There was no one to stick your hand out to.

On the BSE issue, I couldn't agree more.

Please remember that Ralph balanced everything on under $10/barrel oil. I was one of the taxpayers and oilfield workers that made that happen. I have quite a number of guys from "down east" working for me that never knew you could work 80+ hours a week and survive. They do now, and when they see their paychecks, I don't think they regret it.

While Albertans may whine at the Kingdom of Ralph somewhat, we still work our asses off while we do it.

[fellowtraveller]

I was but a mere tyke during the recession of the '80s that killed the last boom, but I remember well how Albertans, when faced with adversity, pulled up their socks, tightened their belts and stuck their hands out.

Funny, what I remember if all the people who lost their homes.

I'd bet they haven't forgotten either.

[sage]

Black Dog don't get started on the ranchers. The fact is they told the government not to provide the support proposed. They (the Canadian Cattlemen's association) knew that if the federal government went ahead with their plan (which forced producers to sell in order to receive support) that the prices would simply plummet and packer's would prosper. In the midst of the BSE crisis nobody understood the vagaries of supply and demand better then Canadian ranchers.

What fucked this up was the government refused to listen to the people it was supposed to represent. Much like when people provide opinion's on topics they know nothing about.

[geoffrey]

I was but a mere tyke during the recession of the '80s that killed the last boom, but I remember well how Albertans, when faced with adversity, pulled up their socks, tightened their belts and stuck their hands out.

Funny, what I remember if all the people who lost their homes.

I'd bet they haven't forgotten either.

In Newfoundland when the cod ran out, everyone got payments (TAGS I think it was called) to keep their houses until they found new jobs, which many never did. In Alberta, we got a kick in the ass when Trudeau brought in the NEP. There is a difference between Alberta and the rest of Canada, maybe it was the necessity to stick up for ourselves because we know damn well Ottawa doesn't.

Black Dog don't get started on the ranchers. The fact is they told the government not to provide the support proposed. They (the Canadian Cattlemen's association) knew that if the federal government went ahead with their plan (which forced producers to sell in order to receive support) that the prices would simply plummet and packer's would prosper. In the midst of the BSE crisis nobody understood the vagaries of supply and demand better then Canadian ranchers.

What fucked this up was the government refused to listen to the people it was supposed to represent. Much like when people provide opinion's on topics they know nothing about.

The only people that really got help was the American packers, the ranchers got screwed and the government hurt the market severely.

[Minimus Maximus]

As an Albertan I find it extremely offensive when fellow Canadians claim that our prosperity came with little or no effort on our parts.

Canadians from all parts of this country have had to work hard for what they have. Stories like Kimmy's exist all across this country. The difference is farming in Ontario, fishing in Newfoundland or logging in BC don't provide the same rate of return as oil and gas. My own grandparents grew up in sod huts on the prairies too.

I have worked countless hours in the worst of conditions spending much of my time away from family and friends, the moneys great but if you have ever been to places like Red Earth Ab

Most people in Alberta do not work in the oil fields - they live comfortable lives in urban centers like Calgary and Edmonton collecting their Ralph bucks. Oil is a extremely valuable resource and Alberta won the geographical lottery in that respect. It is the height of arrogance to presume that Albertans deserve this windfall more than equally hard working people in the rest of the country.

That said, I would not expect my neighbor to share their 6/49 lottery winnings just because I thought they did not deserve it any more than me. However, I would be very annoyed if my neighbor ran around justifying why they 'deserve' the money and others don't. A little humility in the face of good fortune goes a long way.

I agree with everything you have stated here Sparhawk. In my haste to post this I didn't clairify that there are examples of the spirit in which Kimmy wrote her post all over this country. If I have given the impression that Albertan's deserve more than citizens of other provinces then I must appologize to you and others who took my post in that way.

[ex-hippy]

The dates of Kimmy's thread on Babble are Feb 6 and on but here they are Jan 27 ish. What gives?

Also: Kimmy has experienced what so many posters to Babble experience: a bunch of frustrated pseudo-intellectuals who take themselves too seriously. Huge hostility problems.

Kimmy: What's happening now?

[Michael Hardner]

Thanks, Kimmy, for that inspiring post.

As a Toronto liberal, I find that MapleLeaf and the good forums are the only places where I come into contact with other points of view. That's sad when you consider that productive dissent is supposed to be a mainstay of democracy.

I always try to bring up the conservative point of view in casual conversation if I feel that it's not being well represented and you post will be helpful in that regard.