Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: No, you don’t understand context. The people of 400 years ago thought that they were doing good and just things, bringing the light of civilization to the world and creating opportunities. Today’s governments and settlers think that they are doing the same thing and will be judged just as unfairly by the Black Dog of 2224 as you’re judging the early colonial settlers. This is utterly fatuous, flattening everything to vague ideas and ignoring the actual context. You cannot talk about past colonization without referencing the European competition for territory, resources and prestige that drove it. It had very little to do with "doing good things." I also fail to see any commonality between "we need to colonize foreign lands and convert savages to our faith by the flame and sword" and "we should promote immigration so we have enough people to work and maintain our standard of living". It's also nonsensical to refer to contemporary immigrants as "settlers" unless you're one of those crack-brained "great replacement" theorists. Quote Oh, and my guess is that you would’ve been there among the French missionaries trying to save the “savages” just before the Iroquois barrelled through your door and slaughtered you rather savagely. Self-righteous fakeness and hypocrisy doesn’t sit well. Have some honesty and humility. Again, I have no idea what the f*ck you're banging on about here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: No, you don’t understand context. The people of 400 years ago thought that they were doing good and just things, bringing the light of civilization to the world and creating opportunities. Today’s governments and settlers think that they are doing the same thing and will be judged just as unfairly by the Black Dog of 2224 as you’re judging the early colonial settlers. Oh, and my guess is that you would’ve been there among the French missionaries trying to save the “savages” just before the Iroquois barrelled through your door and slaughtered you rather savagely. Self-righteous fakeness and hypocrisy doesn’t sit well. Have some honesty and humility. And this is the cast iron truth - there is a reason the phrase exists that the path to hell is paved with good intentions. The king who PROMISED that the first nations would be given education and wrote it into their agreements at their request very clearly did so believing that this was the nicest thing he could do for them. Macdonald said "hey - these guys are living practically like animals right now, if we just teach them english all we'll get is animals who can speak english. We need to educate them properly how to be modern men and participate in the world, and then they can build whatever societies they want." It's a nice idea. I mean - they didn't even have crumpets for god's sake He thought this would elevate them. Today we cut off boys' penises because they think they may be girls. How will history look at our times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 14 minutes ago, Black Dog said: This is utterly fatuous, flattening everything to vague ideas and ignoring the actual context. You cannot talk about past colonization without referencing the European competition for territory, resources and prestige that drove it. It had very little to do with "doing good things." I also fail to see any commonality between "we need to colonize foreign lands and convert savages to our faith by the flame and sword" and "we should promote immigration so we have enough people to work and maintain our standard of living". It's also nonsensical to refer to contemporary immigrants as "settlers" unless you're one of those crack-brained "great replacement" theorists. Again, I have no idea what the f*ck you're banging on about here. Lacks contextual perspective and makes value judgments without evidence to support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Lacks contextual perspective and makes value judgments without evidence to support. lol not an argument! you're just throwing random terms at the wall now. Edited March 15 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 7 minutes ago, Black Dog said: lol not an argument! you're just throwing random terms at the wall now. It is an argument. The fact you don't understand the bigger words doesn't change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Black Dog said: lol not an argument! You don’t seem to understand that the very language you use and the conditions for your opinions are contextual for our times and steeped in a cultural history that’s much broader than your po-co 2nd year university revolutionary take. It’s like you’re demanding that the parents who fed and raised you be sentenced to death for giving you much of what’s good in your life. It doesn’t matter. You’ll either persist in your immature opinions until you have real responsibility like kids or a serious job or you’ll persist in your rant wondering why sensible people don’t agree with you. In order to fairly ascertain the actions of people you need to look at what all the other players were doing and why, understand that our standards didn’t exist because life was harsher for everyone, and see that the best methods for living won the day. People didn’t come to America to kill or erase culture out of some kind of sadistic joy, at least not the vast majority. They came because they saw opportunity and took it. They keep coming. The way of life established in the West afforded the best living standards, attracting more people, and making everything else a problem to be solved by the same people who had success in so many other areas. In the end success breeds success. While slaves were taken and people slaughtered in places and times, as had always been the case, the real juggernaut that continues to “colonize” and advance at the expense of everyone and everything else is the lure of cutting edge civilization, because that’s what people choose and gravitate towards. It’s not something that one person, a king or president, made happen. It’s not based on skin colour or gender. It happened because highly developed civilizations grow and devour everything in their path because they’re compelling and powerful in their own right, including all the leftist programs and anti-colonial projects such civilizations afford. They’re all colonial af and you yourself will be judged as a colonial retrograde by future generations. In fact, your missionary zeal and lack of self awareness make you as ripe for cancellation as all the colonialist founders of America, Canada, etc. At least here you won’t be killed by the revolutionary mob when it turns against you. Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 26 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: You don’t seem to understand that the very language you use and the conditions for your opinions are contextual for our times and steeped in a cultural history that’s much broader than your po-co 2nd year university revolutionary take. It’s like you’re demanding that the parents who fed and raised you be sentenced to death for giving you much of what’s good in your life. It doesn’t matter. What opinions, specifically? Can you articulate what I actually believe here or are you just attacking the strawman your all right wing media diet has made for you? Quote You’ll either persist in your immature opinions until you have real responsibility like kids or a serious job or you’ll persist in your rant wondering why sensible people don’t agree with you. I'm a middle-aged man with a job, a mortgage and a kid. Has the possibility that not everyone of your socioeconomic strata shares your opinions and values, or that you may not actually represent "sensible people" ever once crossed your mind? Of course not; you're a zealot. Quote In order to fairly ascertain the actions of people you need to look at what all the other players were doing and why, understand that our standards didn’t exist because life was harsher for everyone, and see that the best methods for living won the day. Fallacy: affirming the consequent. Quote People didn’t come to America to kill or erase culture out of some kind of sadistic joy, at least not the vast majority. Whether they came with the intention to kill or erase culture is beside the point (though I'd argue that killing and erasing culture was actually the explicit goal of the settler colonial project). People are judged by their deeds, not their intentions. Quote They came because they saw opportunity and took it. They took a lot more than that. Quote The way of life established in the West afforded the best living standards, attracting more people, and making everything else a problem to be solved by the same people who had success in so many other areas. In the end success breeds success. While slaves were taken and people slaughtered in places and times, as had always been the case, the real juggernaut that continues to “colonize” and advance at the expense of everyone and everything else is the lure of cutting edge civilization, because that’s what people choose and gravitate towards. It’s not something that one person, a king or president, made happen. It’s not based on skin colour or gender. It happened because highly developed civilizations grow and devour everything in their path because they’re compelling and powerful in their own right, including all the leftist programs and anti-colonial projects such civilizations afford. Those are definitely a bunch of words. They have zilch to do with the subject at hand, but there are lot of them. Quote They’re all colonial af and you yourself will be judged as a colonial retrograde by future generations. In fact, your missionary zeal and lack of self awareness make you as ripe for cancellation as all the colonialist founders of America, Canada, etc. At least here you won’t be killed by the revolutionary mob when it turns against you. "Zeal"? "Lack of self awareness"? My dude you are barking at the moon here. i'll refer you once again to my first point above wrt strawmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Black Dog said: What opinions, specifically? Can you articulate what I actually believe here or are you just attacking the strawman your all right wing media diet has made for you? I'm a middle-aged man with a job, a mortgage and a kid. Has the possibility that not everyone of your socioeconomic strata shares your opinions and values, or that you may not actually represent "sensible people" ever once crossed your mind? Of course not; you're a zealot. Fallacy: affirming the consequent. Whether they came with the intention to kill or erase culture is beside the point (though I'd argue that killing and erasing culture was actually the explicit goal of the settler colonial project). People are judged by their deeds, not their intentions. They took a lot more than that. Those are definitely a bunch of words. They have zilch to do with the subject at hand, but there are lot of them. "Zeal"? "Lack of self awareness"? My dude you are barking at the moon here. i'll refer you once again to my first point above wrt strawmen. Nonsense. First off, I’m a moderate who used to be a member of the Liberal Party. I’m not extreme in any way. People follow freedom and opportunity, always. The alternatives to Western expansion were worse and the facts don’t lie. People keep coming to colonial Canada in spite of our own government’s anti-Canadian rhetoric. Your hands are not demonstrably cleaner than anyone else’s on this forum, if you think your identity makes you extra. In fact your notions of the “noble savage” are straight out of the European Enlightenment. The Indigenous made contributions to our democracy and way of life. Read about Kondiaronk the Wendat orator. Read about various medications and technologies. What I particularly take issue with is your attempt to paint some cultures/groups as especially predatory in Canada and to grant special victim status to others, somehow aligning yourself with them as having a better understanding of colonialism than someone like me, presumably through your “lived experience” when it’s clear that you’re immensely steeped in “the system” (with all its colonialism and “whiteness”: your categories, not mine). Trying to make a connection between your supposed moral clarity and the colonized of early Canada is ridiculous. Their “victimhood”, assuming we agree that they were innocent victims (and I don’t), has nothing to do with your life, nor does anyone alive today have any connection to those “colonizers”. We all have benefited from their legacy more than we would’ve had there been no Canada, or why did you or your ancestors come here? Also, where is your evidence of the intentional killing of Indigenous people in Canada by the French and/or English? There is none. Grow up, stop applying US narratives to Canada, and drop the identity politics. It’s unjust and gross. Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 30 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I'd argue that killing and erasing culture was actually the explicit goal of the settler colonial project) You don't know anything about Canada's history. When non-natives settled on the northern B.C. coast, they helped natives in a lot of ways. They built sawmills that manufactured lumber that natives could then use to build houses in their villages. They brought tools that natives and everyone could use to build homes. White man brought medical care and doctors that helped provide medical care for natives and everyone. Canneries were built and a system that allowed natives to sell their fish. Eventually schools were built and education provided for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: Nonsense. First off, I’m a moderate who used to be a member of the Liberal Party. I’m not extreme in any way. Not many extremists think they are. But you've admitted yourself you are steeped in what I would say is right to far right media, I doubt you read or engage with ideas from the left at any point taht aren't filtered through your media bubble. Quote People follow freedom and opportunity, always. The alternatives to Western expansion were worse and the facts don’t lie. People keep coming to colonial Canada in spite of our own government’s anti-Canadian rhetoric. Your hands are not demonstrably cleaner than anyone else’s on this forum, if you think your identity makes you extra. In fact your notions of the “noble savage” are straight out of the European Enlightenment. More strawmen, it's like you're incapable of engaging real people. Unreal. Quote What I particularly take issue with is your attempt to paint some cultures/groups as especially predatory in Canada and to grant special victim status to others, Where'd I do this? Be specific. Quote somehow aligning yourself with them as having a better understanding of colonialism than someone like me You equated colonial systems with individual immigration so yeah it's fair to assume you don't understand the subject. Quote presumably through your “lived experience” when it’s clear that you’re immensely steeped in “the system” (with all its colonialism and “whiteness”: your categories, not mine). Ah yes the old "you criticize society yet you live in society" gambit. And? Quote Trying to make a connection between your moral clarity and the colonized of early Canada is ridiculous. Their “victimhood” assuming we agree that they were innocent victims (and I don’t) has nothing to do with your life, nor does anyone alive today have any connection to those “colonizers”. You mean other than living on the land they colonized and within the institutions they created? How quick you are to claim the rewards while denying the costs. Quote We all have benefited from their legacy more than we would’ve had there been no Canada, or why did you or your ancestors come here? Ah so the ends justify the means. Here we have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, blackbird said: You don't know anything about Canada's history. When non-natives settled on the northern B.C. coast, they helped natives in a lot of ways. They built sawmills that manufactured lumber that natives could then use to build houses in their villages. They brought tools that natives and everyone could use to build homes. White man brought medical care and doctors that helped provide medical care for natives and everyone. Canneries were built and a system that allowed natives to sell their fish. Eventually schools were built and education provided for everyone. If you think the Indigenous people of the west coast didn't know how to build house, use tools, or engage in trade until the white man came along, you know less about Canada's history than my toddler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Not many extremists think they are. But you've admitted yourself you are steeped in what I would say is right to far right media, I doubt you read or engage with ideas from the left at any point taht aren't filtered through your media bubble. More strawmen, it's like you're incapable of engaging real people. Unreal. Where'd I do this? Be specific. You equated colonial systems with individual immigration so yeah it's fair to assume you don't understand the subject. Ah yes the old "you criticize society yet you live in society" gambit. And? You mean other than living on the land they colonized and within the institutions they created? How quick you are to claim the rewards while denying the costs. Ah so the ends justify the means. Here we have it. I bet I know much more about the left than you do. I’ve studied and read a lot on the topic, not in my parents’ basement but in universities. Your hypocrisy is in presuming that you would have done anything differently from those “colonizers” if you shared their context. You also use the tools of and benefit from an ethos that’s so deeply influenced by history that you can’t separate yourself from it in any convincing way. Rather than talk about debatable policies you play the group identity game. I’m just here to tell you that you’re no less oppressive than other commenters, going by what you say. My only thesis on any of this is that the ravages of colonialism must be taken in context and in juxtaposition with a slew of other deprivations and oppressions. The much bigger story is one of a growing and advancing civilization that has drawn people from all over the world and incorporated their talents to expand ever further. If you can’t see a connection between early settlement and current immigration, that’s truly a sign of denial and ignorance, because they both illustrate the same principle: People will always follow freedom and opportunity. If people came here by choice, it’s for the same reason they come today, to have a better life. 10 minutes ago, Black Dog said: If you think the Indigenous people of the west coast didn't know how to build house, use tools, or engage in trade until the white man came along, you know less about Canada's history than my toddler. Why don’t you move into one of those houses? Just don’t choke on the smoke of the longhouse fire. Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 16 minutes ago, Black Dog said: If you think the Indigenous people of the west coast didn't know how to build house, use tools, or engage in trade until the white man came along, you know less about Canada's history than my toddler. dude - they didn't even know how to build nails. They had no use of metal before whitey showed up. Many tribes regularly faced starvation events. And the west coast first nations were easily the most resourse rich - they probably had it the best and they still didn't have it very good. European tech wtihout a doubt made a massive positive difference in their lives. Just having metal tools was a complete game changer. Which is why you dont hear many of them wanting to go back to their pre-contact lifestyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I bet I know much more about the left than you do. I’ve studied and read a lot on the topic, not in my parents’ basement but in universities. Ooooh wow a university! And yet now you do nothing but suck on right wing propaganda all the live long day because at the end of the day you just want to hear what you already think echoed back to you. Quote Your hypocrisy is in presuming that you would have done anything differently from those “colonizers” if you shared their context. Nope, didn't say that either. Quote You also use the tools of and benefit from an ethos that’s so deeply influenced by history that you can’t separate yourself from it in any convincing way. And? Do you think being a product and beneficiary of colonialism (or captalism or whatever -ism you want) means one cannot critique or question it? Quote Rather than talk about debatable policies you play the group identity game. I’m just here to tell you that you’re no less oppressive than other commenters, going by what you say. I'm hear to tell you you're arguing with phantoms. You can't produce a single example of me saying any of the things you say I said! Quote My only thesis on any of this is that the ravages of colonialism must be taken in context and in juxtaposition with a slew of other deprivations and oppressions. The much bigger story is one of a growing and advancing civilization that has drawn people from all over the world and incorporated their talents to expand ever further. If you can’t see a connection between early settlement and current immigration, that’s truly a sign of denial and ignorance, because they both illustrate the same principle: People will always follow freedom and opportunity. If people came here by choice, it’s for the same reason they come today, to have a better life. You didn't say there was a connection between early settlement and current immigration, you literally said they are the same thing. They are not, though immigration can be a tool of colonization. Quote Why don’t you move into one of those houses? Just don’t choke on the smoke of the longhouse fire. Lol you're getting more unhinged the longer this goes on. Many such cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Ooooh wow a university! And yet now you do nothing but suck on right wing propaganda all the live long day because at the end of the day you just want to hear what you already think echoed back to you. Nope, didn't say that either. And? Do you think being a product and beneficiary of colonialism (or captalism or whatever -ism you want) means one cannot critique or question it? I'm hear to tell you you're arguing with phantoms. You can't produce a single example of me saying any of the things you say I said! You didn't say there was a connection between early settlement and current immigration, you literally said they are the same thing. They are not, though immigration can be a tool of colonization. Lol you're getting more unhinged the longer this goes on. Many such cases. I’m not wasting more time on you. You have too much to learn. I will say that your views illustrate why we’re in these culture wars. God help us if the kids are let into the control room. Actually it’s already happened. Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Black Dog said: If you think the Indigenous people of the west coast didn't know how to build house, use tools, or engage in trade until the white man came along, you know less about Canada's history than my toddler. Of course they didn't have lumber and tools until the white man came. White man built sawmills and had the ability to produce lumber in large quantities. Natives did not have metal tools in a significant amount if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 4 hours ago, Black Dog said: I also fail to see any commonality between "we need to colonize foreign lands and convert savages to our faith by the flame and sword" Europeans colonized Canada but they didn't use a flame and sword. You don't seem to know much or anything about how Canada was settled. The U.S. was different. There were wars with aboriginals. That was not the case with Canada. But I don't think you know the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 5 minutes ago, blackbird said: Europeans colonized Canada but they didn't use a flame and sword. You don't seem to know much or anything about how Canada was settled. The U.S. was different. There were wars with aboriginals. That was not the case with Canada. But I don't think you know the difference. Fact is that in Canada the relationship between teh first nations and the europeans was pretty damn harmonious for centuries. The first nations benefited tremendously and their lives were made much better by contact with a more advanced society - it wasn't until the mid 1800's and the formation of 'canada' that things took a turn for the worse at all. They don't teach that to the kids but yeah - for a few hundred years the arrival of europeans was a great thing for the first nations and they were fairly happy about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: I’m not wasting more time on you. You have too much to learn. I will say that your views illustrate why we’re in these culture wars. God help us if the kids are let into the control room. Actually it’s already happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I guess a meme is what you post when you realize theer's no words to explain how dense you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: God help us if the kids are let into the control room. Actually it’s already happened. frankly, the vast majority of Zoomers whom I meet are quite civilized sweet, innocent & naive cultured & well behaved certainly some have been indoctrinated by the Marxist Leninist's, but I don't blame the victims therein more often than not tho, the Zoomers I meet are aware that something is very, very wrong they are aware that things were not like this in the past, when Generation X was growing up the Zoomers are actually Black Pllled, they expect that there will be a catastrophic end to this cultural revolution I don't invoke Christ to the Zoomers, as that would probably backfire none the less, my heart goes out to them, lost souls wandering a pagan wilderness without the light over Damascus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) 39 minutes ago, blackbird said: Of course they didn't have lumber and tools until the white man came. White man built sawmills and had the ability to produce lumber in large quantities. Natives did not have metal tools in a significant amount if at all. So how'd they build longhouses, totem poles and fleets of war and transport canoes if they didn't have lumber or tools? Magic? 33 minutes ago, blackbird said: Europeans colonized Canada but they didn't use a flame and sword. You don't seem to know much or anything about how Canada was settled. The U.S. was different. There were wars with aboriginals. That was not the case with Canada. But I don't think you know the difference. I don't think you actually know any history but i expect there's lots of things that didn't get covered when you went to school in the 1930s. 25 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Fact is that in Canada the relationship between teh first nations and the europeans was pretty damn harmonious for centuries. The first nations benefited tremendously and their lives were made much better by contact with a more advanced society - it wasn't until the mid 1800's and the formation of 'canada' that things took a turn for the worse at all. They don't teach that to the kids but yeah - for a few hundred years the arrival of europeans was a great thing for the first nations and they were fairly happy about it. This dumbshit has never heard of smallpox. Edited March 15 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Just now, Black Dog said: So how'd they build longhouses, totem poles and fleets of war and transport canoes if they didn't have lumber or tools? Magic? They piled logs on one another - often just lining a hole with them, not even building them much above ground, and they hit a log with sharp rocks till it looked like they wanted it to, None of that requires much more technique or ability than a chimp has. It's effective enough i suppose but it's hardly any feat of engineering. Ever been in an actual "quiggly" hole or earth house? I have. It's cool enough considering what they had to work with but it's really no more sophisticated than the tipis of the prarie first nations or the igloos of the innuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 5 minutes ago, Black Dog said: This dumbshit has never heard of smallpox. Sorry kiddo - smallpox wasn't introduced to canada by the europeans, it came up from the south where it was introduced by the barbados and spanish people a few hundred years before. If you want to blame anyone blame the chinese - that's where it originated. But the first canadian smallpox epidemic would have occurred whether europeans showed up in Canada or not. Swing and a miss But this does go to show how limited your understanding of their history and practices are. But then - you never seem to miss a chance to look a little more uneducated do you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Just now, CdnFox said: Sorry kiddo - smallpox wasn't introduced to canada by the europeans, it came up from the south where it was introduced by the barbados and spanish people a few hundred years before. If you want to blame anyone blame the chinese - that's where it originated. But the first canadian smallpox epidemic would have occurred whether europeans showed up in Canada or not. Swing and a miss But this does go to show how limited your understanding of their history and practices are. But then - you never seem to miss a chance to look a little more uneducated do you Spanish people aren't Europeans now? They really should take your husk off life support, there's no activity in that cranium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.