Dave Chapelle Brilliantly Frames How Trans Ideology Feels Like for an Outsider

[Yakuda]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok- well as I have been saying, maybe you can start by posting a definition ?  Let's see if we can navigate the meta without falling into the pitfalls of moralism.

People who believe things that are true only in their minds are delusional. Thats not moralism it's fact. 

What definitions would you like? 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What should such tags be replaced with in your opinion ? 

Most people who use TERF, don't even use it properly.

Is it radical as a woman to feel uncomfortable with a person who looks male and has a penis to be in a public female shower with you? If it is, what is radical about it?

Women who oppose trans women in combat sports. A sport where death can occur, if you don't know what you're doing, or serious injury (or have unfair advantages like more body power and speed stemming from the potential puberty you went through). What is radical about this?

Opposing trans women in female prison, where there have been rapes and instructions in the event of pregnancy at some jails. What is radical about this?

When you challenge something, there politically should be room for debate. Especially where freedom of speech and thought are valued.

Otherwise, what you're dealing with isn't policy, nor is it the advancement for people who need it. Its propaganda.

Begs the question. Why the need to thinly veil lies, shaming and propaganda if what you're peddling is based in fact?

CIS is no different. Am reducing myself to being CIS to make someone feel better about their mental illness. But you're demanding me to call you they/them, or risk being outted as transphobic. 

How is this rational? You can hand pick what I can be called. Questioning it brings forth vitriol, and you guessed it--being called transphobic or having you being an ally questioned.

(Woman) Sorry, that was a good pickup line, but am not into black men.

(Me) Wow, you're racist. What's your name?

(Woman) Its *****. Am not. I just prefer...

(Me) Give me your phone number and a blow*** and redeem yourself. I feel sick. I thought these days were far behind us.

Same logic. I should try it should I ever become single again.

Then end the convo "its because am black, isn't it?!"

Victimhood after using my race card to get ahead. 

That socially, is the equivalent of a Jordan slam dunk.

Truthfully, it does nothing but divide, in that those who don't buy what you sell will hate you more for forcing it upon them.

46 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Does that work for you ?

I like the identity politics. Not so hot on the zealots. Maybe peddlers or sympathizers. 

48 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

A definition for transgender ideology ? 

You're essentially asking me to define something that cannot be defined in a sentence. You can only define them by what they do, and make it as short as possible.

There is nothing wrong with transness. There is something wrong with how it is being pushed, today, like its a trend.

50 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're a classical liberal, I think, which is another

Close. I have always been conservative, but voted liberal because I strongly believe in progress, socially.

What I don't need, is to be told how to think, how to live my life, and certainly not how I should use language to appease people suffering from mental health issues.

Life is unfair as it is hard. Nobody gave two s***s about me when I hit rock bottom as a youth. When I was flat broke and risked homelessness.

BLM is the same. Shaming tactic which are based on faulty statistics to make people believe the threat on black people are police officers. 

Statistically this is false, and to question it brings forth, vitriol and cries of racism.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, you believe in money though.

That would be correct, but I understand money.

So I wouldn't hit you with vitriol, at you questioning my love of money.

I used to get money. Now I understand money. How it evolved, what people used to trade for before. What gives it value, how the rich use complicated wording to prevent lower classes from benefiting from money like they do. 

Same reason why someone opening a savings account for 1.9% interest, feel they are winning.

Trans peddlers would be best served to debate with knowledge, vs pseudo wisdom. 

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. People who believe things that are true only in their minds are delusional. Thats not moralism it's fact. 

What definitions would you like? 

1. Right, but word definitions are cultural artifacts, studied in the field of etymology.
2. Do you have a definition that you refer to ?  

[Michael Hardner]

39 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Most people who use TERF, don't even use it properly.  Is it radical as a woman to feel uncomfortable with a person who looks male and has a penis to be in a public female shower with you? If it is, what is radical about it? Women who oppose trans women in combat sports. A sport where death can occur, if you don't know what you're doing, or serious injury (or have unfair advantages like more body power and speed stemming from the potential puberty you went through). What is radical about this? Opposing trans women in female prison, where there have been rapes and instructions in the event of pregnancy at some jails. What is radical about this? When you challenge something, there politically should be room for debate. Especially where freedom of speech and thought are valued.  Otherwise, what you're dealing with isn't policy, nor is it the advancement for people who need it. Its propaganda. Begs the question. Why the need to thinly veil lies, shaming and propaganda if what you're peddling is based in fact?

CIS is no different. Am reducing myself to being CIS to make someone feel better about their mental illness. But you're demanding me to call you they/them, or risk being outted as transphobic.  How is this rational? You can hand pick what I can be called. Questioning it brings forth vitriol, and you guessed it--being called transphobic or having you being an ally questioned.

-----------------------

2. I like the identity politics. Not so hot on the zealots. Maybe peddlers or sympathizers. 

-----------------------

3. You're essentially asking me to define something that cannot be defined in a sentence. You can only define them by what they do, and make it as short as possible.

-----------------------
4. Close. I have always been conservative, but voted liberal because I strongly believe in progress, socially.

-----------------------

5. What I don't need, is to be told how to think, how to live my life, and certainly not how I should use language to appease people suffering from mental health issues.

-----------------------

6. That would be correct, but I understand money.

 

1.  I'm VERY confused.  I already REJECTED both of those terms.  I'm asking you for a replacement and you repeated reasons for rejecting those terms, which I don't dispute.  Do you have an alternative term I can start using ?  Please suggest it.

2. Ah ok... now we're getting somewhere.  But sympathizers, zealots, peddlars are different things.  You yourself are somewhat of a sympathizer, being in favour of basic rights as you have stated.  Zealots are just fervent believers who will not listen to any alternative story that challenges them.  That to me is closest to what you are saying.  Peddlars push the ideas for selfish reasons, ie. as salesmen.  How about "identity politics extremist" ?  Seems apt to me.  Does it fit ?

3. So that should say something.  If you can't define it then maybe it's not exactly an ideology. Hence my suggestion.  Also if you call them "identity politics extremists" it diminishes their influence and therefore is a better pejorative imo.

4. Classical Liberal has not much to do with the Liberal Party.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#:~:text=Classical liberalism is a political,freedom and freedom of speech.

5. You are a classical liberal then.

6.  Understood.  Well we're definitely moving somewhere in this discussion.  I will submit this for you to think about: by your definition you can be a "transgenderism peddlar" as well as a pure capitalist, if you make money by pushing transgender imagery, and use your business communication to push for acceptance of trans people.  Agree ?
 

Edited January 15, 2024 by Michael Hardner

[Yakuda]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right, but word definitions are cultural artifacts, studied in the field of etymology.
2. Do you have a definition that you refer to ?  

A definition of what?

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

A definition of what?

A definition of Transgender Ideology ?

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

A definition of Transgender Ideology ?

The deluded belief that someone is a different gender because they "feel" like they are. 

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

The deluded belief that someone is a different gender because they "feel" like they are. 

That seems like a single belief more than an ideology.  

My take: the world changed the definition of "gender" just as they did "married".  You don't have to believe the new definitions but government, institutions and society on the whole is going that way.   I can't make an ideology out of that, as in ... an entire system.  Seems more like an idea you buy into, or not... or pay lip service to.

One other thing on this topic: it's pretty clear that it's tough to define ANY ideology... and many things we know are ideologies are tough to define.  But you CAN try to define... environmentalism, socialism, conservatism and come up with something most would recognize that applies to adherents.  I'm trying to get to that first step is all.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm asking you for a replacement

Why would they need to be replaced? What is wrong with biological male or female? The language wasn't broken before.

My wife doesn't have chests. She has breasts. She breastfed. 

We are bending over backwards to accommodate the minority, because of how they feel inside.

TERF is the equivalent of a woman pulling the V card when she is losing an argument. 

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Does it fit ?

I don't see their views as extreme. Just not based in reality.

Ideology seems to be a best fit in my opinion, as it feels more appropriate.

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

to push for acceptance of trans people.  Agree ?

No. I am not against the push for acceptance. 

I am against the means to get the desired result.

Martin Luther King understood that for society to accept black people, that they needed to show that they were upstanding citizens. It would make it harder to accept the injustices they had to endure. If they acted as savages, it justified the treatment and there would be zero reason to stop it.

Trans ideologists feel that by bogarting gender charts, language and other means, they can push their beliefs onto others, devoid of facts and evidence.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Why would they need to be replaced? What is wrong with biological male or female? The language wasn't broken before.

2. My wife doesn't have chests. She has breasts. She breastfed.  We are bending over backwards to accommodate the minority, because of how they feel inside. TERF is the equivalent of a woman pulling the V card when she is losing an argument. 

3. I don't see their views as extreme. Just not based in reality.

4. Ideology seems to be a best fit in my opinion, as it feels more appropriate.

5. No. I am not against the push for acceptance. 

6. I am against the means to get the desired result.

7. Martin Luther King understood that for society to accept black people, that they needed to show that they were upstanding citizens. It would make it harder to accept the injustices they had to endure. If they acted as savages, it justified the treatment and there would be zero reason to stop it.

8. Trans ideologists feel that by bogarting gender charts, language and other means, they can push their beliefs onto others, devoid of facts and evidence.

1. No a replacement term for 'transgender ideology'.
2. Ok
3. Ok
4. Right, but as I pointed out it doesn't fit the standard definition of what an ideology is.  You yourself can't define "transgender ideology", am I right ?
5. Ok
6. What is the 'desired result' and who desires it ?
7. Ok
8. Who are they ?  Are they just people who support trans rights but are 'not based in reality' ?  

How about 'identity politics nutjob' ?

[Yakuda]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No a replacement term for 'transgender ideology'.
2. Ok
3. Ok
4. Right, but as I pointed out it doesn't fit the standard definition of what an ideology is.  You yourself can't define "transgender ideology", am I right ?
5. Ok
6. What is the 'desired result' and who desires it ?
7. Ok
8. Who are they ?  Are they just people who support trans rights but are 'not based in reality' ?  

How about 'identity politics nutjob' ?

Transgender ideology has already been defined for you. It's a warped deluded belief that a person can change their gender based on how they "feel".

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Yakuda said:

Transgender ideology has already been defined for you. It's a warped deluded belief that a person can change their gender based on how they "feel".

You just defined a belief, not an ideology.

If I believe in bigfoot I'm not a proponent of "bigfoot ideology".  

Furthermore, it's at root a belief that words like 'gender' 'marriage' 'queer' 'gay' shouldn't be changed in meaning, as they are.

[Yakuda]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You just defined a belief, not an ideology.

If I believe in bigfoot I'm not a proponent of "bigfoot ideology".  

Furthermore, it's at root a belief that words like 'gender' 'marriage' 'queer' 'gay' shouldn't be changed in meaning, as they are.

A belief that is the root of trans ideology. The rest flows from that delusional thought. Without that the entire nonsense come crumbling down. 

Sure you are. 

I agree but leftist ideology is as warped as trans ideology

 

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

A belief that is the root of trans ideology. The rest flows from that delusional thought. Without that the entire nonsense come crumbling down. 

Sure you are. 

I agree but leftist ideology is as warped as trans ideology

 

So ... you want to change the word 'ideology' and yet you object to the changing of the word 'woman'.... Welcome to politics my friend...

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So ... you want to change the word 'ideology' and yet you object to the changing of the word 'woman'.... Welcome to politics my friend...

I'm not changing the word ideology... "The ideas and manner of thinking characteristic of a group, social class or individual". What's wrong with you? 

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

I'm not changing the word ideology... "The ideas and manner of thinking characteristic of a group, social class or individual". What's wrong with you? 

So the group is transgender people ?  I'm serious that I want to get to the heart of this.  And don't take my skepticism over your thoughts and methods as me being set in stone against using the term.

I just am suspicious of its use, that's all.

So is the 'group' transgender people only ?  And with your definition, the word "ideas" is plural.  So what are the ideas beyond "gender is a social construct" and the fallout from that ?  "Conservatism" is a set of ideas across cultures that are supported by individuals, institutions and writings.  I still think what you're describing is more of a 'belief'.  Which is fine.

[Yakuda]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

So the group is transgender people ?  I'm serious that I want to get to the heart of this.  And don't take my skepticism over your thoughts and methods as me being set in stone against using the term.

I just am suspicious of its use, that's all.

So is the 'group' transgender people only ?  And with your definition, the word "ideas" is plural.  So what are the ideas beyond "gender is a social construct" and the fallout from that ?  "Conservatism" is a set of ideas across cultures that are supported by individuals, institutions and writings.  I still think what you're describing is more of a 'belief'.  Which is fine.

There are other "ideas" associated with trans ideology beyond gender changes according to ones feelings. They include:

Now that I'm a woman I should be allowed to compete against actual women in sports

I can be outraged and act out anytime someone "misgenders" me and won't go along with my delusion

Children can be given hormone blockers be use they may not be sure if they are a boy or a girl

Gender is "assigned" at birth

Because intersex people exist that means gender is fluid. 

Those are just the ones I can rattle off even if you woke we from a drunken stupor

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

1. There are other "ideas" associated with trans ideology beyond gender changes according to ones feelings. They include: Now that I'm a woman I should be allowed to compete against actual women in sports I can be outraged and act out anytime someone "misgenders" me and won't go along with my delusion Children can be given hormone blockers be use they may not be sure if they are a boy or a girl Gender is "assigned" at birth Because intersex people exist that means gender is fluid. 

Those are just the ones I can rattle off even if you woke we from a drunken stupor

1. I anticipated that in my last response, which is why I wrote "and the fallout from that".  I think everything you mentioned is just a consequence of the one idea.  Conservatism is a SET or GROUP of ideas that encompass and touch all aspects of our culture including work, faith, individualism and so on.

For that matter, the idea of transgender fights is - to me, a conservative - more of a conservative ideology than any kind of new "ideology" which, as you describe, is really just one idea and the consequences from that one idea.  That is why Canadian Conservative Jim Flaherty rightly saw this as a rights issue and voted FOR transgender rights in a free vote in Parliament.

In any case, if you have anything new to add based on my response I'd like to hear it as I think your responses are thoughtful and generally respectful.  Cheers.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You yourself can't define "transgender ideology", am I right ?

I can define in my own words, but it wouldn't be a definition by your standards. It would be an opinion. 

No dictionary would dare define the word, because they would be considered transphobic. Biological male or female, are deemed as offensive words by some. They are no different than obese or dead, when spoken of medically. 

You're essentially Chechnya's leader pointing to no gay people living in his country, or Afghanistan leaders stating they haven't heard any female complaints about their rights, as a gotcha statement. Anyone with common sense immediately would know why. 

Its rather obvious why nobody will define it, officially. 

You stating the lack of a definition means it doesn't exist, is ignoring that reality or the elephant in the room.

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Who are they ?  Are they just people who support trans rights but are 'not based in reality' ?

Trans ideologists would be anyone who would support the notion that gender is limitless. 

That a biological male who transitions into being a trans woman, should be able to compete professionally with women.

Watching a Tik Tok of a trans woman trying to breastfeed or others claiming they get period cramps right before pooping, isn't proof. 

It just shows how dangerous enabling mental health issues can be. These are people who go into the world legit feeling they are women, and being completely distraught at someone seeing them as male when some just don't pass.

Get angry at saying there clearly aren't two genders, but can't quantify how many that there are  as justification for them being offended. 

That level of logic. My comments don't elude to anyone else in that community, as I am part of it--and most just want to be able to exist, just like myself. 

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. I can define in my own words, but it wouldn't be a definition by your standards. It would be an opinion. 

2. No dictionary would dare define the word, because they would be considered transphobic.

3. You're essentially Chechnya's leader pointing to no gay people living in his country...

4. Its rather obvious why nobody will define it, officially. 

5. You stating the lack of a definition means it doesn't exist, is ignoring that reality or the elephant in the room.

6. Trans ideologists would be anyone who would support the notion that gender is limitless. 

 

1. Well... if the definition works for me I'll start using it though.
2. LOL... BIG DICTIONARY is in on it because they would never dare list a non-PC word in the dictionary:  
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nigger
3 Huh ?  I think you misunderstand what I'm talking about.  I'm just looking for a better word for "transgender ideology".  I've said that several times.  I'm not arguing anything about transgender folks or what have you.
4. Well you use the word.  What do you think it means and why does 'ideology' fit ?  
5. I'm not saying what you talk about doesn't exist.  Hell, I even gave YOU a word to use.    It had 'nutjobs' in it.
6. As I said to the other guy... that's just an idea not an ideology... which is a bigger thing - a set of ideas, a framework etc.
 
The rest of your post is more examples of advocates (you can use my 'nutjobs' word) that you think are ridiculous but I'm more interested in the meta here.  If we can't arrive at one, or you don't like the 'nutjobs' one I suggested then we might have to give up the ghost.  Thanks.

 

[impartialobserver]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:50 PM, Perspektiv said:

Exactly. I don't understand this about woke culture today, where if you're offended by it--it must be shut down. Those who consume it must be shamed.

I have no shame in my game. Chapelle comes to my neck of the woods, I'd be first in line for tickets. I appreciate his humor, so I would pay for a ticket. That's the power of business.

Don't like a product--don't buy.

I fully believe that humans (or most of us) need a cause to support or rail against. We have to have some grand struggle and therefore someone to hate/despise. We can't simply live our lives and make the best of it.. Nahh. In our comfortable existence, we have to manufacture villains such as Dave Chappelle. 

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

No dictionary would dare define the word, because they would be considered transphobic.

 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

LOL... BIG DICTIONARY is in on it because they would never dare list a non-PC word in the dictionary:

This was fascinating.  People are so convinced that their conspiracy theories are true that they never bother to fact check the most mundane claims.  
 

Bad word #2

Bad word #3

This forum censored the words in the html link, so I had to bury them in the links.   Woke forum?  

 

Edited January 16, 2024 by TreeBeard

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

they would never dare list a non-PC word

They have movies and shows where the N word is openly used. Its also factual by any standard, based on its history. Its not non PC in proper context.

Waters get murky when dealing with the trans issue.

Hard to murky racial injustice as it quite literally is a white and black issue.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm just looking for a better word for "transgender ideology". 

I don't see why I need to find you this. It works just fine for me and millions of others.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

If we can't arrive at one

Ideology is quite commonly used, as it fits this group perfectly.

Not sure why it is you feel we should be in agreement here. Dissagreement is fine.

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

 

This was fascinating.   

 

I am going to one day write a book about the difficulty in getting people to think 'Meta'....

[TreeBeard]

11 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Waters get murky when dealing with the trans issue.

Did you look up slurs against transgender people in the dictionary?  I linked to one.  Your BIG-DICTIONARY (lol @Michael Hardner) conspiracy fails. 

Edited January 16, 2024 by TreeBeard