Israel Orders Mass Gaza Evacuations as It Expands Operation

[Hodad]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

No, you misunderstand war.  
See, you think wars only happen between armies. Wars happen between nations. There is a government or governing entity that wages war against another.  And the entity that dragged the people of Gaza into war is Hamas. Hamas could end this war TOMMOROW: Here are the hostages, and we surrender. All done!!!  
 

You have a fantasy in your head that Hamas members wear great big green Hamas hats and live in great big Hamas houses, and how come Israel doesn’t just attack THAT. It’s because they cannot. It’s impossible. You also think the Gazans are all civilians and the Israelis are all soldiers.  The Israelis are drafted.  They don’t want to do this, their wives, husbands, children and mothers want them home.  These Israelis are fighting Hamas in the streets and taking casualties.  But the only number you’re hearing is Palestinian dead. You don’t even know how many Israeli soldiers have died so far. Why is that? 

Well, fark, I guess I don't need to say anything. You'll make up what I think and have that conversation instead.

That's fine. You can come to your senses later. Take a look around the world. Watch Israel's support go from overwhelming to a minority position, as everyone from the Pope to South Africa to our own White House tells them to pump the brakes on the atrocities.

They can slaughter tens of thousands of Palestinians and all they will do is earn the hatred those people feel toward them, and lose the support of their allies. Terror begets terror. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Hodad said:

Indeed. That's an apt summary for a post that completely misses the point.

It would have been the most brilliant thing you ever said. 

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

And the entity that dragged the people of Gaza into war is Hamas. Hamas could end this war TOMMOROW: Here are the hostages, and we surrender. All done!!!  

It's actually a combination of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. 

Hamas are just the puppets of the bloc of ME countries who refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to become citizens just for this exact photo op: bombs blowing up in Gaza. 

The leaders of those countries all see a bigger picture: Israel/Palestine ethnically cleansed. Even if 100,000 or 2 million Gazans die it doesn't matter to them. Their only goal is a ME without a homeland for the Jews. No amount of dead children is too high for them. 

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, Hodad said:

Well, fark, I guess I don't need to say anything. You'll make up what I think and have that conversation instead.

That's fine. You can come to your senses later. Take a look around the world. Watch Israel's support go from overwhelming to a minority position, as everyone from the Pope to South Africa to our own White House tells them to pump the brakes on the atrocities.

They can slaughter tens of thousands of Palestinians and all they will do is earn the hatred those people feel toward them, and lose the support of their allies. Terror begets terror. 

I’m not putting words in your mouth. You said what you said. Civilians are dying in Gaza because Hamas uses them as human shields. 
 

You have not explained what Israel should do instead.  

[Rebound]

11 hours ago, robosmith said:

And Israelis elected Netanyahu. So what? Almost ALL Israelis served in the military, and are subject to RECALL.

So they are ALL combatants, too. Duh

Even the women, but not the children.

^Intellectual bankruptcy. According to YOUR "logic," genocide can never be done because it's impossible to wipe every member of an ethnic group. Ridiculous.

If Israel’s goal was the elimination of the Palestinian people, wouldn’t their population be decreasing instead of increasing?

[robosmith]

7 minutes ago, Rebound said:

If Israel’s goal was the elimination of the Palestinian people, wouldn’t their population be decreasing instead of increasing?

I haven't heard of ANY increase. I've heard of 15,000 casualties. And the potential for a lot more due to the lack of food, clean water and shelter.

Why does the IDF keep bombing areas to which they tell Palestinians to go to escape the violence?

I just heard an IDF spokesman blaming Hamas because he claimed they followed the evacuees.

That means there was never a plan to create actual safe zones or intercept Hamas fighters heading toward them.

[robosmith]

17 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I’m not putting words in your mouth. You said what you said. Civilians are dying in Gaza because Hamas uses them as human shields. 
 

You have not explained what Israel should do instead.  

I would say it would be a lot less deadly for Palestinian civilians if the IDF soldiers fought Hamas man to man instead of bombing relatively indiscriminately. Maybe go to the tunnel entrances and pipe in anesthetic gas. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

if the IDF soldiers fought Hamas man to man instead of bombing relatively indiscriminately.

Their bombs are quite precise. Issue is Gaza is insanely dense with buildings and populations. You're essentially working with a city like Hong Kong that almost literally has skyscrapers on top of one a other in a relatively small portion of the available land.

No matter how precise, you will damage neighboring buildings as a result, due to blast sbowckwaves. 

Man to man fighting, is sending off your army to a slaughterhouse.

You need to soften the intended target, to make it safer.

Without air support, you're sending these people in blindly. 

This is exactly what Hamas wants, as they can employ shady tactics to inflict massive casualties onto Israel's military.

This would make people like you happy, and put the advantage into Hamas hands.

Israel has massive technological and logistical advantages.

They should fight in a way that maximizes damage to Hamas, and minimizes that to Palestinians.

[Deluge]

8 hours ago, robosmith said:

I haven't heard of ANY increase. I've heard of 15,000 casualties. And the potential for a lot more due to the lack of food, clean water and shelter.

Why does the IDF keep bombing areas to which they tell Palestinians to go to escape the violence?

I just heard an IDF spokesman blaming Hamas because he claimed they followed the evacuees.

That means there was never a plan to create actual safe zones or intercept Hamas fighters heading toward them.

If Palestinians truly wanted to escape the onslaught, they'd get lost in the Middle East somewhere, not gather a few miles from the attacks and huddle like shivering sheep. 

[CdnFox]

9 hours ago, robosmith said:

I haven't heard of ANY increase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 

Gaza's growth in population is very large. It's growth rate is 2.5 times larger than Canada's. That's net growth btw - after deaths.

So if israel is all about getting rid of Gazans they sure are doing a lousy job of it, letting them grow at a very very high rate.

[Rebound]

10 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Their bombs are quite precise. Issue is Gaza is insanely dense with buildings and populations. You're essentially working with a city like Hong Kong that almost literally has skyscrapers on top of one a other in a relatively small portion of the available land.

No matter how precise, you will damage neighboring buildings as a result, due to blast sbowckwaves. 

Man to man fighting, is sending off your army to a slaughterhouse.

You need to soften the intended target, to make it safer.

Without air support, you're sending these people in blindly. 

This is exactly what Hamas wants, as they can employ shady tactics to inflict massive casualties onto Israel's military.

This would make people like you happy, and put the advantage into Hamas hands.

Israel has massive technological and logistical advantages.

They should fight in a way that maximizes damage to Hamas, and minimizes that to Palestinians.

Unfortunately, fighting house-to-house inflicts very high casualties upon the attacker.  The defender can hide anywhere and can’t be detected until he has fired upon the attacker, inflicting casualties.  
 

Even worse, the attacker cannot displace the defender using gunfire, because you’re in the street and the other guy is inside a building. He shoots, then runs somewhere else inside the building to shoot again. So you need to use a mortar or worse to take out the enemy…. Along with any civilians who may be in that building. 
 

With Hamas, the situation is far worse because we know they have many miles of deep, concrete reinforced tunnels throughout Gaza.  So they fire upon Israeli soldiers, hop into their tunnels and show up across the street to attack again. This is incredibly dangerous for the IDF.

[robosmith]

4 hours ago, Deluge said:

If Palestinians truly wanted to escape the onslaught, they'd get lost in the Middle East somewhere, not gather a few miles from the attacks and huddle like shivering sheep. 

Impossible without boats and safe passage allowed by Israel as well as permission to disembark at a different foreign nation.

IOW, your suggestion is gratuitous BULLSHIT. ?

[robosmith]

4 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Unfortunately, fighting house-to-house inflicts very high casualties upon the attacker.  The defender can hide anywhere and can’t be detected until he has fired upon the attacker, inflicting casualties.  
 

Even worse, the attacker cannot displace the defender using gunfire, because you’re in the street and the other guy is inside a building. He shoots, then runs somewhere else inside the building to shoot again. So you need to use a mortar or worse to take out the enemy…. Along with any civilians who may be in that building. 
 

With Hamas, the situation is far worse because we know they have many miles of deep, concrete reinforced tunnels throughout Gaza.  So they fire upon Israeli soldiers, hop into their tunnels and show up across the street to attack again. This is incredibly dangerous for the IDF.

Once they reveal their tunnel entrance location, anesthetic gas can be blown in to put them (and hostages) to sleep.

Unless they have really good gas masks ON THEM.

[Deluge]

9 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Impossible without boats and safe passage allowed by Israel as well as permission to disembark at a different foreign nation.

IOW, your suggestion is gratuitous BULLSHIT. ?

All doable without defeatist a$$holes like you getting in the way. 

If you REALLY want out, you will get out. 

Now, please, calmly go f*ck yourself.  

[Rebound]

26 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Once they reveal their tunnel entrance location, anesthetic gas can be blown in to put them (and hostages) to sleep.

Unless they have really good gas masks ON THEM.

Isn’t gas banned by the Geneva convention? And, I think it would not work because gas like that has to be dosed. Too much is lethal, but I’m not an expert at that.  
When the Arab nations went to war with Israel, they surrendered before Israel could reach their population centers.  Hamas fights from inside their population centers.  They are pure terrorists.  They view their civilian population as a weapon of war.  
 

Mao wanted China to be a nuclear superpower. And he understood that, in order to do it, he would need to sell the rice that his people needed to live. Tens of thousands starved to death so Mao could make China a nuclear power. He considered this a “necessary investment” for the greater China.  This is the kind of thinking Hamas has.  Unfortunately; it’s like a cancer it only grows if you don’t kill it.  I know it’s absolutely horrible but that’s what it is.  

[Hodad]

23 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

And you think that they can just say what they want, with no pressure from the terrorists who literally run Gaza as a dictatorship? ?

Not a "Donald Trump dictatorship, with mean tweets directed at actual criminals, where the leader is subjected to unlawful show trials and MSM slander 24/7", Gaza is a "religiously bigoted, hate-fuelled, amped-for-genocide terrorist dictatorship" along the same lines as islamic state. And you think that the hospital staff there can just tell teh truth with no interference.

Gawd you're a stupid, stupid, stupid little man.

Dude, if I'm stupid, you must be mentally disabled. Those are stones you shouldn't be throwing, especially from the glassiest of glass houses.?

None of your nonsense here matters. You can baselessly speculate about pressure all you want. The fact remains that they are credible because of a record of credibility. And should be viewed as such until that credibility is broken. 

 

Quote

 Interesting:

• Your own article casts doubt on the numbers from the hospital incident
• Their death toll on Oct 27th was

• of the 6,747+281 (7,028) it doesn't even say how many were terrorists. It's doubtful that they killed less than 2-3,000 thousand terrorists, and of the other 4,000 people, many would have been terrorist supporters anyways. 

 

That does not "cast doubt" on the hospital incident. Within hours of the explosion they issued what is clearly a rough number at 500. The very next day they updated it to count at 471. Sorry they were 6% off in their initial count in the middle of a war zone. But that's pretty damn close. And if your speculation were correct, they would have revised the number upward. Again, their counts from past conflicts have been reliable once third party evaluators had opportunity to make a count. 

 

Quote

And keep in mind, when the ministry records dead "children", that includes the likes of the "children" in this video who were spitting on the corpse of a raped and murdered peace activist (oh the irony):

Is it really a bad thing if the people in that video are all killed?  

 

Wow, you just rationalized and justified the wanton murder of children. Children. Congrats on being a piece of crap.

[Rebound]

9 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Dude, if I'm stupid, you must be mentally disabled. Those are stones you shouldn't be throwing, especially from the glassiest of glass houses.?

None of your nonsense here matters. You can baselessly speculate about pressure all you want. The fact remains that they are credible because of a record of credibility. And should be viewed as such until that credibility is broken. 

 

That does not "cast doubt" on the hospital incident. Within hours of the explosion they issued what is clearly a rough number at 500. The very next day they updated it to count at 471. Sorry they were 6% off in their initial count in the middle of a war zone. But that's pretty damn close. And if your speculation were correct, they would have revised the number upward. Again, their counts from past conflicts have been reliable once third party evaluators had opportunity to make a count. 

 

Wow, you just rationalized and justified the wanton murder of children. Children. Congrats on being a piece of crap.

Dude, the hospital incident was most likely caused by a Hamas rocket misfire. 
 

Why? First, if you look at the Israeli damage, it’s from bombs. Bombs create compression shock waves and craters.  You can see this in photos. But in the hospital incident, something landed in a parking lot adjacent to the hospital which started a fire.  What could do that? Why, the unspent liquid fuel of one of Hamas’ rockets. Guided and unguided bombs do not use liquid fuel, or any propellant.  Has Hamas fessed up to killing their own citizens in a hospital? No, they blame Israel.  
 

As for the comment about killing “children,” nobody wants to see the death or injury of innocent children. (Well, maybe @Reason10, but what can I say?). I think, probably, what @WestCanMan was trying to say is that there are Palestinian fighters and combatants who are 14-17 years old, but Hamas puts them all into the “innocent civilians” bucket. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Rebound

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

Once they reveal their tunnel entrance location, anesthetic gas can be blown in to put them (and hostages) to sleep.

Unless they have really good gas masks ON THEM.

Or.. you know.... air tight doors here and there.   I'm sure it NEVER occurred to them the enemy might use gas in a tunnel (/sarcasm).

And sleeping gas? really? Stop getting your information from science fiction shows and spy movies.

[Hodad]

21 hours ago, Rebound said:

Dude, the hospital incident was most likely caused by a Hamas rocket misfire. 
 

Why? First, if you look at the Israeli damage, it’s from bombs. Bombs create compression shock waves and craters.  You can see this in photos. But in the hospital incident, something landed in a parking lot adjacent to the hospital which started a fire.  What could do that? Why, the unspent liquid fuel of one of Hamas’ rockets. Guided and unguided bombs do not use liquid fuel, or any propellant.  Has Hamas fessed up to killing their own citizens in a hospital? No, they blame Israel.  
 

As for the comment about killing “children,” nobody wants to see the death or injury of innocent children. (Well, maybe @Reason10, but what can I say?). I think, probably, what @WestCanMan was trying to say is that there are Palestinian fighters and combatants who are 14-17 years old, but Hamas puts them all into the “innocent civilians” bucket. 

I'm aware that it was likely caused by a rocket misfire. Not sure how that is relevant to the casualty count.

And that's a wildly generous interpretation of the suggestion that it's NBD if those kids are killed. 

A very small percentage of Palestinians are Hamas, but it doesn't much matter how you bucket the dead. By anyone's count, including the IDF, the non-combatant deaths are several times higher than combatants. 

They are killing civilians at about 3x the rate the US killed in Iraq during the "shock and awe" bombing and invasion. They really do not seem to be bothered about who they kill. It's going to backfire in every way.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hodad

[robosmith]

9 hours ago, Deluge said:

All doable without defeatist a$$holes like you getting in the way. 

If you REALLY want out, you will get out. 

You're not making ANY SENSE. Just desperation ^here.

9 hours ago, Deluge said:

Now, please, calmly go f*ck yourself.  

You first, a-hole.

[robosmith]

9 hours ago, Rebound said:

Isn’t gas banned by the Geneva convention? And, I think it would not work because gas like that has to be dosed. Too much is lethal, but I’m not an expert at that.  
When the Arab nations went to war with Israel, they surrendered before Israel could reach their population centers.  Hamas fights from inside their population centers.  They are pure terrorists.  They view their civilian population as a weapon of war.  
 

Mao wanted China to be a nuclear superpower. And he understood that, in order to do it, he would need to sell the rice that his people needed to live. Tens of thousands starved to death so Mao could make China a nuclear power. He considered this a “necessary investment” for the greater China.  This is the kind of thinking Hamas has.  Unfortunately; it’s like a cancer it only grows if you don’t kill it.  I know it’s absolutely horrible but that’s what it is.  

I don't believe anesthetic gas is banned. Make it CO2, which is natural. Just enough that they pass out.

We already know that the tunnels are ventilated from somewhere on the surface.

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, Hodad said:

I'm aware that it was likely caused by a rocket misfire. Not sure how that is relevant to the casualty count.

 

Pretty simple  - they insised it wasn't a rocket misfire.  They insisted that it was deaths at the hands of the israeils.  Until it was known that it was caught on film.

So if they lied about that and blamed the israelis for deaths that were higher than what happened and were not caused by israelis - what other casualties did they lie about?

[Deluge]

6 hours ago, robosmith said:

You're not making ANY SENSE.

I will help you. 

If a Palestinian truly wants to get away from Israel, he or she WILL FIND a way out. 

Just like all those illegal alien dreamers posing as asylum seekers: somehow, some way, they FIND their way to our borders. And they do it without a$$holes like you telling them they can't. Of course, I can't imagine you telling illegals they can't come to US borders because that kind of action turns you on, but you get the point.

[Rebound]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:25 PM, robosmith said:

I haven't heard of ANY increase. I've heard of 15,000 casualties. And the potential for a lot more due to the lack of food, clean water and shelter.

Why does the IDF keep bombing areas to which they tell Palestinians to go to escape the violence?

I just heard an IDF spokesman blaming Hamas because he claimed they followed the evacuees.

That means there was never a plan to create actual safe zones or intercept Hamas fighters heading toward them.

Palestinian population has been increasing substantially for decades.  Some of that 15,000 were combatants, weren’t they? But the death or injury of even one innocent civilian is a tragedy, no question.  This needs to end.  
 

The IDF is fighting to stop Hamas.  At least TRY for a second to consider that MAYBE Hamas are murderers. Israel declares a combat zone, so Hamas leaves the combat zone and embeds themselves with innocent women and children. As a result, Israel creates a new evacuation zone, and Hamas leaves with the babies again.  Israel does not wish to kill innocent civilians. If they did, they wouldn’t have warned of their invasion and they wouldn’t have ordered evacuations.  
 

So WHO is the bad guy?  Is the IDF marching into Gaza surrounded by six year-old Israeli children, so they can blame Hamas for murdering six year-olds? No. But they’re still sending in kids, ages 18-25.  They’re mostly conscripts and they don’t want to be doing this.  They’d rather be at home eating pizza. 
 

Unfortunately, sadly, Hamas said they will invade Israel again. Israel cannot sit back and let October 7 happen again. They will not.  The Gazans did not want to be ruled by Hamas and nobody else is stepping up to remove Hamas from power.  Of course it’s awful but there is no other way to do this. I don’t think you know of a better way. Hopefully, hopefully, this will end Hamas and Netanyahu and a dialog for lasting peace can follow. Who knows, but we can hope.  

Edited December 7, 2023 by Rebound

[robosmith]

6 hours ago, Deluge said:

I will help you. 

If a Palestinian truly wants to get away from Israel, he or she WILL FIND a way out. 

Just like all those illegal alien dreamers posing as asylum seekers: somehow, some way, they FIND their way to our borders. And they do it without a$$holes like you telling them they can't.

Why don't you go to Gaza, destroy your US passport, and tell us how easy it was for you to get out?

You won't because it's NOT.

6 hours ago, Deluge said:

Of course, I can't imagine you telling illegals they can't come to US borders because that kind of action turns you on, but you get the point.

^Still NONSENSE. I don't tell immigrants ANYTHING. You just prove how DELUGINAL you are.