Biggest Lie You've Been Told

[Yakuda]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I did quote over a hundred verses that show salvation is by believing or faith, but you rejected it all.  You are obviously not interested in scripture or commentaries.  Admit it.  You know even if I quote other Scriptures you reject them anyway. 

You only accept what the Catechism says or what the Catholic church claims.   Doesn't matter what I say, you automatically reject it whether it is Scripture verses or commentaries which refer to Scriptures.  Commentaries are what some theologian believes they mean.  It would prove to be what many denominations believe as well.  Why is that so bad? 

You should tell us where you are getting your interpretation from.   Why is referring to what other people say about Scripture so abhorrent to you anyway?  Something else that doesn't make sense.

I didn't reject them. You don't pay attention. I said none of them say faith ALONE. 

You immediately go back to attacking when you can't or won't  answer. 

It's not abhorrent to me but YOU claim to believe sola scriptura. You don't even pay attention to what you say. 

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Actually I don't even need to refer to commentaries to show you where you are wrong on that.

Just read chapters 3, 4, and 5 in Romans and will see.  Also read Galatians.  Or Ephesian 2:8, 9.

You still have not explained those chapters and books of the Bible.

Can you explain what Ephesians means when it says " 8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast."  Ephesians 2:8, 9 KJV

What does it mean?

What does this verse mean?

"16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. "   Galatians 2:16 KJV

Or what does this verse mean?

' 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"   Romans 3:20-22 KJV

No commentaries involved there.  What do you say?

A person is justified by works and not faith alone. This is clear and concise. You insist seeing the weird faith in a passage means faith ALONE. It doesn't. Your blind and you think you can see. It's sad to watch you stumble around but you don't want to see. 

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

I didn't reject them. You don't pay attention. I said none of them say faith ALONE. 

You immediately go back to attacking when you can't or won't  answer. 

Tell me then, if the around 100 verses don't use the word "faith" but use the word believeth or believing, what is the difference?

Edited March 2, 2024 by blackbird

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

It's not abhorrent to me but YOU claim to believe sola scriptura. You don't even pay attention to what you say. 

I just quoted verses from Romans, Galatians and Ephesians.  What do you say about them?

Edited March 2, 2024 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Tell me then, if the around 100 verse don't use the word "faith" but use the word believeth or believing, what is the difference?

We are you working so hard to ignore the point? What's wrong with you? The word faith, believeth or believing isn't the problem. Want to try again? 

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Yakuda said:

We are you working so hard to ignore the point? What's wrong with you? The word faith, believeth or believing isn't the problem. Want to try again? 

So even if a hundred verses demonstrate that salvation is by believing or belief, you still won't accept it?

Edited March 2, 2024 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I just quoted verses from Romans, Galatians and Ephesians.  What do you say about them?

None of which say we are saved by faith ALONE. I pray the scales fall from your eyes but the blindness is your light. 

[blackbird]

What about the verses I quoted in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians?

1 minute ago, Yakuda said:

None of which say we are saved by faith ALONE. I pray the scales fall from your eyes but the blindness is your light. 

Why would the hundred or so verses need the word "alone" when they say clearly salvation is by believing?

[Yakuda]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So even if a hundred verse demonstrate that salvation is by believing or belief, you still won't accept it?

First if there was only ONE verse that says we are saved by works and not faith ALONE we should ignore it? There are many many more that say the same thing but you ignore them because you think volume equals accuracy. It's the curse of your heresy. 

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What about the verses I quoted in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians?

Why would the hundred or so verses need the word "alone" when they say clearly salvation is by believing?

But they don't say faith ALONE which is what you and the other heretics claim. Are you now renouncing what you claim to believe? 

Edited March 2, 2024 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

Just now, Yakuda said:

First if there was only ONE verse that says we are saved by works and not faith ALONE we should ignore it? There are many many more that say the same thing but you ignore them because you think volume equals accuracy. It's the curse of your heresy. 

I just quoted you a number of verse in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians that say a person is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.   Do you not understand what that means?  The law refers to works.  The Scriptures say clearly on those verses that a believer is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.  That means without works.  The law means works.  Go back and read those verses and tell me what you think they mean.

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

First if there was only ONE verse that says we are saved by works and not faith ALONE we should ignore it?

Of course not.  I never said you should ignore it.  But if your interpretation conflicts with the verses I quoted you in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, then you need to determine why the verse conflicts with all the others.

[Yakuda]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I just quoted you a number of verse in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians that say a person is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.   Do you not understand what that means?  The law refers to works.  The Scriptures say clearly on those verses that a believer is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.  That means without works.  The law means works.  Go back and read those verses and tell me what you think they mean.

No the law and works are NOT the same. You people want to use them interchangeably because fits your heresy. They aren't the same. Should I ignore James because you're confused about the difference between the law and works? Yes or no? 

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Of course not.  I never said you should ignore it.  But if your interpretation conflicts with the verses I quoted you in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, then you need to determine why the verse conflicts with all the others.

It doesn't conflict it only conflicts with your perverted understanding. No where does scripture say we are saved by faith alone. You have been duped but you don't want to see. You want to be blind 

Edited March 2, 2024 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

Just now, Yakuda said:

No the law and works are NOT the same.

Did you read Romans ch4:1-8?   It uses the word works several times there and says Abraham was justified without works?  How can that be?

"1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. "  Romans 4: 1-8

How could God impute righteousness to a man without works as in verse 6?

[Yakuda]

Just now, blackbird said:

Did you read Romans ch4:1-8?   It uses the word works several times there and says Abraham was justified without works?  How can that be?

"1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. "  Romans 4: 1-8

How could God impute righteousness to a man without works as in verse 6?

So your saying Abraham just sat at home and believed and was justified? Is that your claim? 

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

So your saying Abraham just sat at home and believed and was justified? Is that your claim? 

No, I never said anything about what Abraham did.

I am asking you what Romans 4:1-8 means to you?

Edited March 2, 2024 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

No, I never said anything about what Abraham did or didn't do.

I am asking you what Romans 4:1-8 means to you?

You should because unless he just stayed home and believed and was justified simply by believing them youre very confused. Abraham's works didn't result in his justification but his faith AND his works did. He didn't just stay home did he? 

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Abraham's works didn't result in his justification but his faith AND his works did.

You need to read it again carefully.

23 minutes ago, blackbird said:

5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. "

Does it say clearly that someone who worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness? (verse 5) 

Clearly Romans 4:1-8 condemns the idea that one is justified or receives imputed righteousness by his works.  It is saying nobody can be justified by faith plus works.  That should be clear.  Would you agree?  Justification means iniquities are forgiven and righteousness is imputed to the person. 

Edited March 2, 2024 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You need to read it again carefully.

Does it say clearly that someone who worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness? (verse 5) 

Clearly Romans 4:1-8 condemns the idea that one is justified or receives imputed righteousness by his works.  It is saying nobody can be justified by faith plus works.  That should be clear.  Would you agree?  Justification means iniquities are forgiven and righteousness is imputed to the person. 

I read it clearly. He didn't sit at home did he 

[blackbird]

Just now, Yakuda said:

I read it clearly. He didn't sit at home did he 

It says clearly " 2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."  Romans 4:2, 3

Then it repeats this idea when it says "5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "  Romans 4:5

Clearly it is not talking about any works that Abraham might have done.  It is a clear statement that nobody can be justified by his works.  In fact, it is a condemnation of the idea that works has anything to do with justification or imputed righteousness.

" 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. "  Romans 4:6-8

The whole section is clearly a condemnation of the idea that one can be justified by works or faith plus works.  It is a clear statement that justification is strictly by faith.  This is in agreement with Galatians and Ephesians 2:8, 9

[Yakuda]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It says clearly " 2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."  Romans 4:2, 3

Then it repeats this idea when it says "5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "  Romans 4:5

Clearly it is not talking about any works that Abraham might have done.  It is a clear statement that nobody can be justified by his works.  In fact, it is a condemnation of the idea that works has anything to do with justification or imputed righteousness.

" 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. "  Romans 4:6-8

The whole section is clearly a condemnation of the idea that one can be justified by works or faith plus works.  It is a clear statement that justification is strictly by faith.  This is in agreement with Galatians and Ephesians 2:8, 9

So your saying abraham just sat at home and believed. Got it

James says we are saved by works and not faith alone. Abraham was made righteous by his faith and his works. He did the will of God 

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21

Edited March 2, 2024 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

" 16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."  Galatians 2:16 KJV

definition

justification :-  

theology

the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God.

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

So your saying abraham just sat at home and believed. Got it

James says we are saved by works and not faith alone. Abraham was made righteous by his faith and his works. He did the will of God 

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21

So you reject what the Apostle Paul says in Romans ch4.  You can't interpret other verses such as James and Matt. 7:21 in a way that contradicts what Paul said in Romans 4.  They must be in agreement.  Paul says clearly in Romans  ch4 you cannot be justified by works.  Justification is strictly by faith.

[Yakuda]

Just now, blackbird said:

So you reject what the Apostle Paul says in Romans ch4.  You can't interpret other verses such as James and Matt. 7:21 in a way that contradicts what Paul said in Romans 4.  They must be in agreement.  Paul says clearly in Romans  ch4 you cannot be justified by works.  Justification is strictly by faith.

which contradicts James and Matt. I see no conflict you do. The contradiction is yours to reconcile not mine. You INSIST on ignoring James. Its at your peril not mine. I dont know why you want to be blind

[blackbird]

5 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

which contradicts James and Matt. I see no conflict you do. The contradiction is yours to reconcile not mine. You INSIST on ignoring James. Its at your peril not mine. I dont know why you want to be blind

No, I don't see any contradiction.  James is not talking about justification or salvation.  Romans 4 says clearly justification is by faith alone.  It condemns the idea of justification by works or faith plus works.

Nobody can be justified by works is what is saying.  So James and Matthew must be understood in agreement with that.   It is you who are claiming James and Matthew is saying salvation is by faith PLUS works.  

Romans 4 makes it clear once and for all that justification is strictly by faith, not works.  That means salvation is by faith alone.  Works comes after and is done because one is a child of God, not working to become one.

Edited March 2, 2024 by blackbird

[Yakuda]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

No, I don't see any contradiction.  James is not talking about justification or salvation.  Romans 4 says clearly says justification is by faith alone.  It condemns the idea of justification by works or faith plus works.

Nobody can be justified by works is what is saying.  So James and Matthew must be understood in agreement with that.   It is you who are claiming James and Matthew is saying salvation is by faith PLUS works.  

Romans 4 makes it clear once and for all that justification is strictly by faith, not works.  That means salvation is by faith alone.  Works comes after and is done because one is a child of God, not working to become one.

Of course he is talking about salvation. 

Right we arent saved or  justified by works....ALONE just like we arent saved or justified by faith alone. Abraham didnt sit at home. He did the will of the father just like Matt tells us. Why do you embrace blindness? Is it easier for you?