Interesting testimony in the State of New York vs. The Trump Organization and Donald J. Trump...

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Stop TROLLING.

Are you saying drivel turned you down when you proposed?  Man- that's got to hurt. Not even good enough for Drivel. @Legato was wrong to rub your face in that rejection, that must have hurt you deeply. Is that why you're so broken today?

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

The facts show undeniably that Donald Trump committed widespread fraud in his business, that Trump himself was behind it, and that it was larger than simple misinterpretation.  

For instance, if two appraisers provide two different valuations and you pick the larger value, that’s reasonable.  But taking a property which YOU insisted had a sub-$20 million value and insisting that it is worth $1 to $1.5 billion is egregious fraud.  The judge determined that it is indefensible and issued a summary verdict. That is also fact.  

The prosecutors submitted evidence that Trump filed sworn statements claiming that his penthouse was 30,000 sq ft. Now we have sworn testimony from his insiders that it was Trump himself who ordered this fraud.  We already have a ruling from the judge that, yes, this fraud occurred. Guilty!  So the testimony now only shows the extent and who was behind it, for the purpose of establishing penalties and possibly to create evidence to be used for a separate criminal indictment. 

Question: At the time these valuations happened, did any bank or the IRS follow their own appraisal? Or did they not do their own appraisal? When exactly did these 2 appraisers decide to do the appraisals? How many years after the fact?

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Question: At the time these valuations happened, did any bank or the IRS follow their own appraisal? Or did they not do their own appraisal? When exactly did these 2 appraisers decide to do the appraisals? How many years after the fact?

Well that's what i was saying - NO Bank takes property as collateral without doing their own appraisal. And safe bet they weren't FULLY mortgaged.

But - you have to remember it isn't the banks or lenders complaining here. As far as they're concerned they were happy with the valuation and the loans are all repaid, they're not even involved.

This is the PROSECUTOR CHOOSING to dig until they found something and are now trying to claim that trump did something wrong. So they don't  care if the banks did their own appraisals or agreed with trump or the like, they think if they can show he knowingly presented information that was inaccurate that whether the bank relied on it or not  they win even though nobody else feels it was undervalued.

It really does feel like a  witch hunt

[robosmith]

7 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well that's what i was saying - NO Bank takes property as collateral without doing their own appraisal. And safe bet they weren't FULLY mortgaged.

But - you have to remember it isn't the banks or lenders complaining here. As far as they're concerned they were happy with the valuation and the loans are all repaid, they're not even involved.

This is the PROSECUTOR CHOOSING to dig until they found something and are now trying to claim that trump did something wrong. So they don't  care if the banks did their own appraisals or agreed with trump or the like, they think if they can show he knowingly presented information that was inaccurate that whether the bank relied on it or not  they win even though nobody else feels it was undervalued.

It really does feel like a  witch hunt

The court DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS. Do you need a crying towel?

Go ahead and claim that it's NOT FRAUD to lie about your assets when applying for a loan.

Please do it now and let us know the details, since you "feel" like it's not illegal. LMAO

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, robosmith said:

The court DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS.

Sure they do     They think i'm wonderful

Quote

Do you need a crying towel?

Why would I? You're not coming over are you'!?!? If you are bring one and a few diapers in case you need changing

Quote

Go ahead and claim that it's NOT FRAUD to lie about your assets when applying for a loan.

This from the guy who thought that the tax assessment value was the same as market value.

Ple

Quote

ase do it now and let us know the details, since you "feel" like it's not illegal. LMAO

ROFLMAO -  it's usually pretty easy to tell when you know you've lost.  One thing you do is invent things that nobody said and then start arguing with yourself over that

Of course - i never said anything remotely close to that But you can't argue with what i DID say so you try to argue with what you make up  

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Question: At the time these valuations happened, did any bank or the IRS follow their own appraisal? Or did they not do their own appraisal? When exactly did these 2 appraisers decide to do the appraisals? How many years after the fact?

I do not know what due diligence the lenders engaged in, but I don’t think it is relevant to whether or not Trump committed fraud.  The court has already ruled that he committed fraud.

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Sure they do     They think i'm wonderful

Why would I? You're not coming over are you'!?!? If you are bring one and a few diapers in case you need changing

This from the guy who thought that the tax assessment value was the same as market value.

Ple

ROFLMAO -  it's usually pretty easy to tell when you know you've lost.  One thing you do is invent things that nobody said and then start arguing with yourself over that

Of course - i never said anything remotely close to that But you can't argue with what i DID say so you try to argue with what you make up  

I see your point: If the government assesses your property at less than market value, you are not under obligation to correct them. 
 

However, if you appeal an assessment, claiming that the property is worth even less than the assessed value, and you document the reasons why and sign your appeal under penalty of perjury… then you tell a lender, under oath, that the property is worth 3 times or 10 times more than that value…. Now you have committed fraud.  
 

There’s even more to it, because when Trump was asked under oath how he evaluates his properties, his response was that he just picks a value and uses his gut instinct.  He could have come up with any number of rational explanations, but he said under oath that he pulls these values out of thin air.  

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I see your point: If the government assesses your property at less than market value, you are not under obligation to correct them. 
 

That's certainly true - but even more impprtant is how they assess it. In this case the tax assessment is based on the earning potential of the property, not necessarily the actual resale value at all.  So the numbers are GOING to be different.

Quote

However, if you appeal an assessment, claiming that the property is worth even less than the assessed value, and you document the reasons why and sign your appeal under penalty of perjury… then you tell a lender, under oath, that the property is worth 3 times or 10 times more than that value…. Now you have committed fraud.  

No, not at all. As i said they use different methods to determine the valuation entirely.  So - you could argue that one number was too low and STILL be telling the truth with another number. Consider canada - your tax assessment is based on the value a year ago.  So i coudl get this year's assessment and the day i get it say i felt it was too high because at the time of the assessment period the roof was very old, then go to a bank the same day and say in the last year i fixed the roof and also prices went up 20 percent.  It would be very normal to be in that situation,

With the trump property as i said a large hunk of it is based on it's earning potential so resale is GOING to be a radically different value, and trump coudl easily say "hey- this property isn't worth what you say it is" to the state and still be quite correct in his higher valuation to lenders.
 

Quote

There’s even more to it, because when Trump was asked under oath how he evaluates his properties, his response was that he just picks a value and uses his gut instinct.  He could have come up with any number of rational explanations, but he said under oath that he pulls these values out of thin air.  

That's perfectly legit. Please remember - no matter WHAT  - a valuation is a guess.  It is not possible to guess with precision what a house will ACTUALLY sell for.  ALL evaluations are guesses.

Now - there are ways to make your guess reasonably accurate. Looking at comparables etc etc.  But - even then those valuations are often wrong. Any lending institution knows that

Likewise - i know lots of experienced realtors who can look at a property for 2 minutes and relatively  accurately say what it will sell for without knowing any details like sq fit and such.

So it's not evidence he's wrong. At all.  The bank was free to do their own assessment if they questioned his.

Where it sounds like they have MORE of a case is where they claim he misrepresented the size of the living space.  Amusingly - that actually happens quite a bit but if he gave banks specs and they relied on that to come up with their own valuations you MIGHT argue that's fraud.

But - if he said 'the place is worth this much' and he believed it then that's not fraud regardless. The loans were based on the value of the property and the court will have to show that it wasn't worth that much and that can be problematic, especially since it's quite obvious the first judge did not understand what he was looking at based on his comments.

 

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well that's what i was saying - NO Bank takes property as collateral without doing their own appraisal. And safe bet they weren't FULLY mortgaged.

But - you have to remember it isn't the banks or lenders complaining here. As far as they're concerned they were happy with the valuation and the loans are all repaid, they're not even involved.

This is the PROSECUTOR CHOOSING to dig until they found something and are now trying to claim that trump did something wrong. So they don't  care if the banks did their own appraisals or agreed with trump or the like, they think if they can show he knowingly presented information that was inaccurate that whether the bank relied on it or not  they win even though nobody else feels it was undervalued.

It really does feel like a  witch hunt

Considering the previous prosecutor refused to take this to court...

Witch Hunt is apt.

[Nationalist]

50 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I do not know what due diligence the lenders engaged in, but I don’t think it is relevant to whether or not Trump committed fraud.  The court has already ruled that he committed fraud.

LOL...that will be appealed and over turned. Its a very frivolous decision...to say the least.

[Rebound]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That's certainly true - but even more impprtant is how they assess it. In this case the tax assessment is based on the earning potential of the property, not necessarily the actual resale value at all.  So the numbers are GOING to be different.

No, not at all. As i said they use different methods to determine the valuation entirely.  So - you could argue that one number was too low and STILL be telling the truth with another number. Consider canada - your tax assessment is based on the value a year ago.  So i coudl get this year's assessment and the day i get it say i felt it was too high because at the time of the assessment period the roof was very old, then go to a bank the same day and say in the last year i fixed the roof and also prices went up 20 percent.  It would be very normal to be in that situation,

With the trump property as i said a large hunk of it is based on it's earning potential so resale is GOING to be a radically different value, and trump coudl easily say "hey- this property isn't worth what you say it is" to the state and still be quite correct in his higher valuation to lenders.
 

That's perfectly legit. Please remember - no matter WHAT  - a valuation is a guess.  It is not possible to guess with precision what a house will ACTUALLY sell for.  ALL evaluations are guesses.

Now - there are ways to make your guess reasonably accurate. Looking at comparables etc etc.  But - even then those valuations are often wrong. Any lending institution knows that

Likewise - i know lots of experienced realtors who can look at a property for 2 minutes and relatively  accurately say what it will sell for without knowing any details like sq fit and such.

So it's not evidence he's wrong. At all.  The bank was free to do their own assessment if they questioned his.

Where it sounds like they have MORE of a case is where they claim he misrepresented the size of the living space.  Amusingly - that actually happens quite a bit but if he gave banks specs and they relied on that to come up with their own valuations you MIGHT argue that's fraud.

But - if he said 'the place is worth this much' and he believed it then that's not fraud regardless. The loans were based on the value of the property and the court will have to show that it wasn't worth that much and that can be problematic, especially since it's quite obvious the first judge did not understand what he was looking at based on his comments.

 

What evidence do you have that property tax assessments are based on revenue and not resale value? My house produces no revenue; is it worth zero?

[robosmith]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

LOL...that will be appealed and over turned. Its a very frivolous decision...to say the least.

^Says the Canadian who dropped out of college but still believes he is an expert on US law. LMAO

My money is on the NYS JUDGE...to say the least.

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, robosmith said:

^Says the Canadian who dropped out of college but still believes he is an expert on US law. LMAO

My money is on the NYS JUDGE...to say the least.

Your money is becoming worthless.

Gee...Thanks Joe.

[CdnFox]

13 minutes ago, Rebound said:

What evidence do you have that property tax assessments are based on revenue and not resale value? My house produces no revenue; is it worth zero?

I posted it earlier. It absolutely is. That's specific to the jurisdiction mar-a-largo is in.  I'm not reposting the same thing again and again, but i'm sure you'll dig it up.  That's why everyone in the real estate world is laughing at the idea that the judge thinks the property was only worth 18  28 million.

Your property is likey a residential property, not one where the clubhouse is a commercial entity and therefor the property is not seen as strictly residential.

There is no universe where that property is worth only 28 million. Every realtor interviewed said that was a complete joke and no realtor anywhere ever used tax evaluations as the market value of a home.

Now - in fairness the ruling noted other properties that the prosecutor felt they over valued but honestly - the whole thing is just ridiculous.

The only way to know what a place is worth is to sell it. And anyone can have the place appraised and make their own guess.  If he was SELLING the place and misrepresented the nature of it then maybe. if you SELL the place to someone and say 'oh it's got it's own airport" and theire's no airport - that's an issue. But as far as valuation goes everyone's guessing and if you don't like his guess then you can pay to have your own guess made. 

It certainly feels  like a hell of a stretch to call that fraud.
 

Edited October 12, 2023 by CdnFox

[CdnFox]

 

10 minutes ago, robosmith said:

^Says the Canadian who dropped out of college but still believes he is an expert on US law. LMAO

My money is on the NYS JUDGE...to say the least.

 

You literally had to be told the president is the commander in chief of the military.

I would say that a you and your money are soon parted.

[robosmith]

6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Your money is becoming worthless.

Gee...Thanks Joe.

In reality I got a raise in my SS benefits due to 8% COL adjustment last year.

Of course my SS check more than covers all my living expenses here in San Diego, so I bank my pensions and interest income.

Just now, CdnFox said:

You literally had to be told the president is the commander in chief of the military.

I would say that a you and your money are soon parted.

Too bad you can't read and ^this is crap.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

In reality I got a raise in my SS benefits due to 8% COL adjustment last year.

Of course my SS check more than covers all my living expenses here in San Diego, so I bank my pensions and interest income.

 

So you're unemployed.

Quote

Too bad you can't read and ^this is crap.

ROFLMAO - too bad i'm correct and that was the best you could do in reply

Get a job hippy.

[Rebound]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I posted it earlier. It absolutely is. That's specific to the jurisdiction mar-a-largo is in.  I'm not reposting the same thing again and again, but i'm sure you'll dig it up.  That's why everyone in the real estate world is laughing at the idea that the judge thinks the property was only worth 18  28 million.

Your property is likey a residential property, not one where the clubhouse is a commercial entity and therefor the property is not seen as strictly residential.

There is no universe where that property is worth only 28 million. Every realtor interviewed said that was a complete joke and no realtor anywhere ever used tax evaluations as the market value of a home.

Now - in fairness the ruling noted other properties that the prosecutor felt they over valued but honestly - the whole thing is just ridiculous.

The only way to know what a place is worth is to sell it. And anyone can have the place appraised and make their own guess.  If he was SELLING the place and misrepresented the nature of it then maybe. if you SELL the place to someone and say 'oh it's got it's own airport" and theire's no airport - that's an issue. But as far as valuation goes everyone's guessing and if you don't like his guess then you can pay to have your own guess made. 

It certainly feels  like a hell of a stretch to call that fraud.
 

EVIDENCE, not your meandering BS. 
There are plenty of tax authorities for you to quote. I suggest you start with West Palm Beach, FL

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, Rebound said:

EVIDENCE, not your meandering BS. 
There are plenty of tax authorities for you to quote. I suggest you start with West Palm Beach, FL

I did.  So now you're just sealioning.  You won't bother to look up what i posted - AND you won't look up the statutes yourself.

Pfff.  I have no idea why i gave you the benefit of the doubt and treated you like a real person instead of the scumbag sealion asswipe distorted by hatred and a low iq that you are.

And it's that level of ignorance that's going to put trump right back in the whitehouse if you're not very lucky.

[Caswell Thomas]

18 hours ago, Deluge said:

Did I not just tell you what sworn testimony is to the Left? What part of what I said are you struggling to understand? 

I see, so evading my question then...

[Caswell Thomas]

9 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The only "fact" is that the guy testified such. The rest is not confirmed so is not a "fact".

This is a very elementary concept that apparently has flown right over your head...unsurprisin

gly.

Oh no, it WAS confirmed...Forbes measured it and sent Donald a letter, they produced it as Evidence...it stated it was not 30,000 sq feet, it was 11, 996 sq ft. The fact that Trump ignored the letter and he and his son Eric continued to use Donald Trump's figures instead in these bank loans and real estate valuations he used to obtain money is what the Court is speaking about. 

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

I did.  So now you're just sealioning.  You won't bother to look up what i posted - AND you won't look up the statutes yourself.

Pfff.  I have no idea why i gave you the benefit of the doubt and treated you like a real person instead of the scumbag sealion asswipe distorted by hatred and a low iq that you are.

And it's that level of ignorance that's going to put trump right back in the whitehouse if you're not very lucky.

I did look up what you claimed and could not find any US tax authority that claims they assess property at its revenue value and not resale value. 

[Caswell Thomas]

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Question: At the time these valuations happened, did any bank or the IRS follow their own appraisal? Or did they not do their own appraisal? When exactly did these 2 appraisers decide to do the appraisals? How many years after the fact?

In financial fraud (quoting the Criminal Law statutes) involving over a million dollars, and those crimes involving RICO violations, the statute of limitations is ten years. So if you are thinking of getting Trump off ...he'll never make it, various former con conspirators already  diving off his sinking yacht at every opportunity. If you were smart, and sent any donations to Trump that you suspect didn't go to his presidential campaign but instead were used for his personal expenses, now would be the time to file a complaint to get your money back...while he still has any...there is already a move in the Court to appoint the Receiver to dissolve his assets, companies, properties, bank accounts, and any items of significant value purchased with said funds...

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

I did look up what you claimed and could not find any US tax authority that claims they assess property at its revenue value and not resale value. 

Then you didn't bother with my previous post on it.  You're a liar.

[robosmith]

Rep. Moskowitz calls for Palm Beach County to tax Mar-a-Lago at the rate Trump claims it's worth

Quote

Rep. Jared Moskowitz (D-FL) is asking Palm Beach County to tax Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago property at the rate the former president claims it is worth amid his ongoing civil fraud trial in New York.

Wrote Moskowitz: “Between 2011 and 2021, you value the Mar-a-Lago property between $18 million and $28 million. Mar-a-Lago was listed as worth $490 million in financial documents given to banks. If the property value of Mar-a-Lago is so much higher than it was appraised, will you be amending the property value in line with the Trump family’s belief that the property is worth
well over a billion dollars?”