Nexii Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 47 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: It is more than 400 million Arabs. It is a billion Muslims. Some are very violent stemming from their violent Islamic culture. Refer to history to see how violent barbaric they are when they invaded East and West. Israel has the right to defend itself (They have millions of women and children to protect too), but I agree not at the cost of tens of thousands of innocent defenseless women and children. When it comes to women and children race and religion does not matter to me. They should go after Hamas terrorists and kill them all but with minimum loss of civilian lives. What they do is causing maximum pain on everyone to punish the entire population to death. The problem is Israel isn't strong enough to do it humanely, so they're cutting corners. The IDF wasn't and isn't prepared for this. It's been acting more as a police force than as an army capable of a ground invasion. A normal government would call it a truce/treaty, but Netanyahu's political survival depends on the war. Once it's over he's done politically. His approval is 20% domestically. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 33 minutes ago, blackbird said: Self defense is not a trading game. Hamas attacked Israel first with a barbaric cruel attack. I I have said it again and again. The war between Israel and Palestinians did not start recently with Hamas attack. It started decades ago when Israeli terrorists terrorized and massacre Palestinian civilians into leaving what was their homeland. Israelis started the war then and the first attack was done by them/ These hateful Hamas terrorists who kill and rape defenseless people are to sons of those civilians who were massacre decades ago by Israeli terrorists and the sons of the Palestinian victims during this war will attack and kill Israeli civilians again years or decades from now, With your solution of ugnoring Israeli genocide or closing your eyes on their crimes will only fuel more attacks on Israel and more terrorism. This is not the solution. 1 Quote
Army Guy Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: It is more than 400 million Arabs. It is a billion Muslims. Some are very violent stemming from their violent Islamic culture. Refer to history to see how violent barbaric they are when they invaded East and West. Israel has the right to defend itself (They have millions of women and children to protect too), but I agree not at the cost of tens of thousands of innocent defenseless women and children. When it comes to women and children race and religion does not matter to me. They should go after Hamas terrorists and kill them all but with minimum loss of civilian lives. What they do is causing maximum pain on everyone to punish the entire population to death. I want you to take a few minutes and think for a moment, how Does Israel just kill Hamas, when they hide among the people, launch attacks next to schools, homes, etc ....And there is enough Palestinians that will hide or lie to protect Hamas ....You seem to have all the answers, but none that are based in reality... Israel can not simple watch as Hamas conducts a war of terrorism on it's people,...which is what your suggesting, your saying it's OK to kill Hamas, just not anyone else... so Tell us how....The world awaits your answer Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
CdnFox Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 22 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I have said it again and again. The war between Israel and Palestinians did not start recently with Hamas attack. Sure it did. And if they don't want another one they'd best finish this one completely. When the rest of the arab world sees that attacking isreal means getting wiped out, they'll think twice. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Army Guy Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 21 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I have said it again and again. The war between Israel and Palestinians did not start recently with Hamas attack. It started decades ago when Israeli terrorists terrorized and massacre Palestinian civilians into leaving what was their homeland. Israelis started the war then and the first attack was done by them/ These hateful Hamas terrorists who kill and rape defenseless people are to sons of those civilians who were massacre decades ago by Israeli terrorists and the sons of the Palestinian victims during this war will attack and kill Israeli civilians again years or decades from now, With your solution of ugnoring Israeli genocide or closing your eyes on their crimes will only fuel more attacks on Israel and more terrorism. This is not the solution. Your history is very wrong...the day after Israel was declared a state, the Muslim coalition attacked Israel, Palestinian civilians were part of that attack....Israel did not attack anyone first...The state of Israel was made into a state by a UN mandate....Israel has made peace with all those in the coalition with the except of Palestine, becasue Palestine does not want anything but the destruction of Israel, Palestinians refused the 2 state promise...they want to kill Israelis, nothing more...but you knew that already right... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 45 minutes ago, Nexii said: The problem is Israel isn't strong enough to do it humanely, so they're cutting corners. The IDF wasn't and isn't prepared for this. It's been acting more as a police force than as an army capable of a ground invasion. A normal government would call it a truce/treaty, but Netanyahu's political survival depends on the war. Once it's over he's done politically. His approval is 20% domestically. What is the humane way ? and where do you think they are cutting corners... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 35 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I want you to take a few minutes and think for a moment, how Does Israel just kill Hamas, when they hide among the people, launch attacks next to schools, homes, etc ....And there is enough Palestinians that will hide or lie to protect Hamas ....You seem to have all the answers, but none that are based in reality... Israel can not simple watch as Hamas conducts a war of terrorism on it's people,...which is what your suggesting, your saying it's OK to kill Hamas, just not anyone else... so Tell us how....The world awaits your answer Send soldiers inside Gaza to target and kill Hamas terrorists one by one not to drop heavy explosives on residential areas to kill a hundred civilians as well as one or two Hamas terrorist. This is so cowardly and brutal. 1 Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Your history is very wrong...the day after Israel was declared a state, the Muslim coalition attacked Israel, Palestinian civilians were part of that attack....Israel did not attack anyone first...The state of Israel was made into a state by a UN mandate....Israel has made peace with all those in the coalition with the except of Palestine, becasue Palestine does not want anything but the destruction of Israel, Palestinians refused the 2 state promise...they want to kill Israelis, nothing more...but you knew that already right... I was referring to the AFTER the formation of state of Israel. Israeli terrorists wanted to purify the land from Arabs who were born there. They formed armed gangs and at nights attacked Palestinian civilians and killed many and terrorized them into leaving their land of birth and run for their lives. These terrorist attacks unofficially not sponsored by Israeli government was with the full knowledge of Israeli government and support of Israeli army. To a lesser extend we see it even today. Armed settlers coming from Europe attacking Palestinian civilians. One of those gangster terrorists later became the Prime Minister of Israel. Menachem Begin was born in Poland, where he joined an extremist Zionist movement that wanted to establish a Jewish state in Palestine by force. During the Second World War Begin was in custody in the Soviet Union before he, with incredible luck, managed to get to Jerusalem. There he became the leader of the Irgun Zwai Leumi organization which resorted to terror both against the British authorities and against Palestine's Arab inhabitants. Irgun also fought the Israeli army until Begin accepted David Ben Gurion's supreme leadership. In 1977 Begin became Prime Minister when the conservative Likud alliance won the election. Edited October 27, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015 1 Quote
Army Guy Posted October 27, 2023 Report Posted October 27, 2023 6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Send soldiers inside Gaza to target and kill Hamas terrorists one by one not to drop heavy explosives on residential areas to kill a hundred civilians as well as one or two Hamas terrorist. This is so cowardly and brutal. Do you honestly going to tell me that this has not been tried before...do you think bullets only kill terrorists, not civilians...there are no magic bullets or bombs...just shit that does not discriminate from good or bad people... what you suggest would cost thousands of soldiers lives, and even more civilian deaths...Hamas are terrorists they do not care about there own people and happily sacrifice their life's for no more than a propaganda opportunity like the hospital bombing... Cowardly is using schools/ mosques, protected places to launch attacks from...all this does is turn those places into military targets...which we have seen already, these targeting is legal according to the rules of war....not sure why that is so hard to accept...civilians are either being force to stay by Hamas, or they support Hamas...why would Hamas do this to their own people...to get world opinion on their side...nothing more and you have fallen like a fish to a worm... It is easy to judge people 8000 kms away, without knowing all the facts... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I was referring to the AFTER the formation of state of Israel. Israeli terrorists wanted to purify the land from Arabs who were born there. They formed armed gangs and at nights attacked Palestinian civilians and killed many and terrorized them into leaving their land of birth and run for their lives. These terrorist attacks unofficially not sponsored by Israeli government was with the full knowledge of Israeli government and support of Israeli army. To a lesser extend we see it even today. Armed settlers coming from Europe attacking Palestinian civilians. One of those gangster terrorists later became the Prime Minister of Israel. Menachem Begin was born in Poland, where he joined an extremist Zionist movement that wanted to establish a Jewish state in Palestine by force. During the Second World War Begin was in custody in the Soviet Union before he, with incredible luck, managed to get to Jerusalem. There he became the leader of the Irgun Zwai Leumi organization which resorted to terror both against the British authorities and against Palestine's Arab inhabitants. Irgun also fought the Israeli army until Begin accepted David Ben Gurion's supreme leadership. In 1977 Begin became Prime Minister when the conservative Likud alliance won the election. Again you leave out huge chunks from the story...it's all about context... Yes after the Muslim coalition had tried to force Israel into the sea, killing men women , children in the process...by the thousands....after Israel fought them back to their own borders, yes, some Israelis civilians did take justice into their own hands and took it out on whom ever they found...Do you blame them..... they were celebrating getting their own state , only to have an army come and start killing you...... but lets also remember that Palestine people formed a large group that slaughtered Israelis in their homes...always a but in every story...does 2 wrongs make a right no they don't....but it does put some context to what happened... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
CdnFox Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 44 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Send soldiers inside Gaza to target and kill Hamas terrorists one by one not to drop heavy explosives on residential areas to kill a hundred civilians as well as one or two Hamas terrorist. This is so cowardly and brutal. It is neither cowardly or brutal. There is no possible way to target hamas "one on one". That's not remotely possible. So you're going to have to go in and secure the area - THEN you can deal with them. And that means bombing the crap out of the place to prep for an invasion. What is cowardly and brutal is hiding behind the civivie population knowing they'll get killed to win yourself sympathy points. Isreal is doing what's necessary. Hamas and the gaza residents are the cowards. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Do you honestly going to tell me that this has not been tried before...do you think bullets only kill terrorists, not civilians...there are no magic bullets or bombs...just shit that does not discriminate from good or bad people... what you suggest would cost thousands of soldiers lives, and even more civilian deaths...Hamas are terrorists they do not care about there own people and happily sacrifice their life's for no more than a propaganda opportunity like the hospital bombing... Cowardly is using schools/ mosques, protected places to launch attacks from...all this does is turn those places into military targets...which we have seen already, these targeting is legal according to the rules of war....not sure why that is so hard to accept...civilians are either being force to stay by Hamas, or they support Hamas...why would Hamas do this to their own people...to get world opinion on their side...nothing more and you have fallen like a fish to a worm... It is easy to judge people 8000 kms away, without knowing all the facts... This will cause likely heavy casualties on Israelis but will save ten times more civilian lives. Israel is minimizing its own casulties at the expense of Palestinian civilians. I think yes that a one to one battle between Israeli soldiers and Hamas fighters even if they are hiding in residential areas will save a lot of innocent lives. If they enter a mosque where Hamas fighters are hiding and target them and kill them causes far less loss of life compared to when they just drop a heavy bomb on the mosque killing everyone in it. No disagreement on how cowardly Hamas is. What is more cowardly than killing defenseless women and children that Hamas did? If you don't know why Hamas does this to their own people you don't know the culture of these bastards. They think they do them a service that if they cause their death then they send them to heaven till eternity!!!!. You think I am making this up? I am not. Edited October 28, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
CdnFox Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Israel is minimizing its own casulties at the expense of Palestinian civilians. That is what they are SUPPOSED to do. If 100 palestinian terrorist supporters die to save an israel soldier then it was worth it. If the palestinians don't like it - they can always surrender and turn over the hamas people and stop this tomorrow. But they support hamas and they don't want to. Sooooooo you live (or die) with the decisions you make. 2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: If you don't know why Hamas does this to their own people you don't know the culture of these bastards. Don't care. The people can either tolerate it or not tolerate it and turn them in. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 26 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Again you leave out huge chunks from the story...it's all about context... Yes after the Muslim coalition had tried to force Israel into the sea, killing men women , children in the process...by the thousands....after Israel fought them back to their own borders, yes, some Israelis civilians did take justice into their own hands and took it out on whom ever they found...Do you blame them..... they were celebrating getting their own state , only to have an army come and start killing you...... but lets also remember that Palestine people formed a large group that slaughtered Israelis in their homes...always a but in every story...does 2 wrongs make a right no they don't....but it does put some context to what happened... Unfortunately you are misinformed. The war was between Arab countries and Israel. But Israeli settlers terrorized defenseless people to get rid of them. THIS WAS A CLEAR CASE OF ETHNIC CLEANSING. I have never heard of Palestinians forming groups to slaughter Israelis. Proof please. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Don't care. The people can either tolerate it or not tolerate it and turn them in. m not sure if you are really so ignorant. Women and children arrest and turn armed terrorists in to Israelis. Quote
CdnFox Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: m not sure if you are really so ignorant. Women and children arrest and turn armed terrorists in to Israelis. Or they can die standing between them. I know which i'd choose if i were them - but hey, i would never have let hamas be the gov't in the first place, or i'd have moved my family away if i couldn't stop it long ago. There is nothing 'ignorant' about that. Sorry but that is the way it is. As they are finding out right now. You can whine you can cry, you can say whatever you like. But that has been the reality of war since the dawn of man. Your anger is misplaced. This isn't a problem with isreal, it's with the people of gaza for not kicking out the warmongers and terrorists long ago. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
eyeball Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 3 hours ago, blackbird said: Hamas attacked Israel first with a barbaric cruel attack. Actually it was the umpteenth retaliation for who knows how many times Israel has been the one on the attack. Its fascinating how narrow and selective your sense of history can be in one post and how broad and inclusive it can be in another. The old adage about history often being little more than politics projected backwards really captures the way you treat things. 1 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 24 minutes ago, eyeball said: Actually it was the umpteenth retaliation for who knows how many times Israel has been the one on the attack. actually it wasn't Hamas attacked Israel first with a barbaric cruel attack. Period. They are now at war. period. Gaza - which started the war - will have to live or die with the consequeces. Trying to excuse or justify terror attacks and the murder of children and women as deliberate targets is simply evil. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
eyeball Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 1 hour ago, CdnFox said: Hamas attacked Israel first with a barbaric cruel attack. It was cruel alright and down right criminal. It didn't happen in a vacuum or reset history so it now starts on Oct 7 however. The legitimate aspirations of Palestinians still endure and instead of dealing with the root causes of the conflict Israel is again just mowing the lawn while planting the seeds for the next retaliation. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 5 hours ago, eyeball said: It was cruel alright and down right criminal. Yes - it happened in a vacuum.' There was no impending attack or action against hamas, nor had there just been any sort of thing. This was driven by hatred that needed nothing other than it's own existence. You lefties trip over yourself to excuse it. "oh it's terrible BUT - BUT BUT BUT - history!! Israel bad!!! They had it oming!!! But yes terrible. But it's their own fault. But very bad". They should call it Schrodinger's massacre - apparently the attack was both horrific with no excuse AND understandable and justified by history all at the same time Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
eyeball Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 7 hours ago, CdnFox said: Yes - it happened in a vacuum.' There was no impending attack or action against hamas, nor had there just been any sort of thing. This was driven by hatred that needed nothing other than it's own existence. You lefties trip over yourself to excuse it. "oh it's terrible BUT - BUT BUT BUT - history!! Israel bad!!! They had it oming!!! But yes terrible. But it's their own fault. But very bad". They should call it Schrodinger's massacre - apparently the attack was both horrific with no excuse AND understandable and justified by history all at the same time It is what it is. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CdnFox Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 2 hours ago, eyeball said: It is what it is. And what it is would be a war started by the people of gaza using a particularly disgusting attack that targeted civillians including babies and having properly declared war Israel is entirely justified to take whatever steps are necessary to eliminate that threat in the future, even if that means significant civilian casualties and not a god damn thing that's happened in the past changes any of that. As you say, it is what it is. That's what it is. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
blackbird Posted October 28, 2023 Author Report Posted October 28, 2023 16 hours ago, eyeball said: The legitimate aspirations of Palestinians still endure and instead of dealing with the root causes of the conflict Israel is again just mowing the lawn while planting the seeds for the next retaliation. You again demonstrate your ignorance of reality. 1. Sure there is history, but history is on Israel's side. You refused to read some history, so it is pointless to try repeatedly to point it out to you. You prefer ignorance over facts. 2. Israel was declared a State in May 1948 and recognized as such by most countries in the world. The countries that especially refuse to recognize Israel just happen to be Islamic. That is the way it has been all through history since Islam began in the 7th century. This is why you need to learn history and get your facts straight although you seem unable to think logically. So I am not sure history would even help you see things rationally. 3. You talk about root causes, but ignore the fact that the root cause is Islam. Muslims will never accept Israel's right to exist and live in peace because that goes against their religion. In such a case there really is no solution other than first eliminating the major threats that exist around Israel so that they can live in relative peace and security. 4. Just declaring a piece of land as belonging to the Palestinians will not solve the problem because of the Islamic Jihad problem which I mentioned above. When you have radical Islamic theocracies such as Iran fueling the hatred and terrorism, that also means a genuine situation of peace and security is not within easy reach. Quote
eyeball Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, blackbird said: You talk about root causes, but ignore the fact that the root cause is Islam. Muslims will never accept Israel's right to exist and live in peace because that goes against their religion. No, it goes against assurances given to Palestinians by England that there would be no Jewish state that Palestinians would need to vacate. 24 minutes ago, blackbird said: Sure there is history, but history is on Israel's side. You refused to read some history... Read this. The white paper, formalized as a Palestine Order in Council in August,[33] reaffirmed the British commitment to a national home, promised that Palestine would not become a Jewish State and that Arabs would not be subordinated to Jews. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_White_Paper#:~:text=The white paper%2C formalized as,not be subordinated to Jews. And then Britain did the exact opposite after being driven out by Zionist terrorists. I figured it's because Britain knew exactly what would happen when they did. Edited October 28, 2023 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted October 28, 2023 Report Posted October 28, 2023 1 hour ago, CdnFox said: As you say, it is what it is. That's what it is. Its certainly not what you say it is. 1 hour ago, CdnFox said: And what it is would be a war started by the people of gaza using a particularly disgusting attack that targeted civillians No, it was a particularly disgusting retaliation for Israel's violent brutal occupation of Palestine. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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