Hamas Attacks Israel

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

1. I seriously doubt you'd be able to identify a real fact, if it was on its knees pleasuring you.

2. The difference between you and me is that I respect reality and results. I could give a rat's ass that we're talking about Ashkenazi Heebs Vs. Camel-Jockies. Israel exists. They have colonized that field of sand. Gaza is a violent and dangerous threat and can easily be dispensed with. The best way to do that is from the air...all at once. The brutality would make the PLO and Hezbolah pee their dresses. It's the only way to end this once and for all.

If you are not mature enough to debate without making personal attacks then you know what you can do.

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Victimizing innocent civilians only escalates the conflict and will not bring security it will only bring further more extreme terrorism and draw in other countries.

Well we tried the nice way - lets try this way and see how it goes.

In fact i think it's safe to say that moving the terrorist out of your country DOES reduce their ability to commit atrocities inside your country.

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You think the other Arab and Muslim nations will standby while Israel enacts a mass genocide in relation for a terrorist attack?  You think there won’t be massive consequences to the already unstable order?

Yup.  World opinon is against them. Russia can no longer arm them. And Isreal is about to show a little taste of what they can do when they're pissed.

It's not like we haven't been here before. Half of isreal used to be palisinian.  Now it's down to two hunks of which gaza is one. I think we'll be down to one hunk when this is over

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People who can control their emotions can differentiate between the justifiable military action that must be taken against terrorists, and the sheer self-defeating barbarism and state terrorism of “let their civilians burn in their beds”. 

People who can control their emotions can realize that sometimes you have to take action to protect yourself. This has been going on for years

Those who cannot control their emotions pretend that it's acceptable to slaughter innocent women and children without provocation and then complain when there's consequences.

They don't have to kill the civvies - they just have to throw them out and take back the land.

 

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At least I think everyone on this thread can agree that neither Hamas nor Israel ever wanted peace, at least not in recent decades.

Bullshit.  Isreal would have been quite happy to live in peace.  You can "what if" all you like but at the end of the day ONE side has in it's policy statement "Kill isreal", one side crossed the border and mercilessly slaughtered women and babies and beheaded soldiers etc.

So now we are where we are and there is no 'escallation' - just irradication of the threat. Throw them out - take back the land - get rid of them.  ANd if any other country harbours them and allows them to conduct terrorist attacks - blow the shit out of them.

trying to talk peace with them sure as hell doesn't work,

Edited October 14, 2023 by CdnFox

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I provided only an excerpt of the article but the full text explains Israel’s longstanding policy of lop-sided retaliation which Israeli authorities have pledged to follow again. The all-time casualty ratio of Palestinian to Israeli civilians is close to 10-1. Even if an exaggeration, it’s unlikely that Hamas and Iran planned such a surprise and barbaric attack expecting only minimal Israeli response.   Also as Ukraine and other conflicts have shown, drones are widely available now even to individuals and non-state actors.

There's no such thing as 'lopsided' retaliation.  This isn't a game. This isn't a case of 'ok - you take a punch and then i'll take a punch  back and then... "

This is "you came into my home and tried to kill my family.  I don't care if you've got a knife and i've got a shotgun - i'm ending this threat now".

The idea  that somehow the response should be anything but isreal's best efforts is insane.  These people without any possible justification just attacked and deliberately slaughtered civillians. Not 'collateral damage' or 'that missile hit a building and civvies happened to be in it' or the like - no,  they chased people down, threw them and their FREAKING BABIES to the ground and shot them.

There is no reacton thats' 'excessive' in response to that.  They should do whatever they need to in order to permanently end that threat for good. End of story. 

Because if they don't - they'll do it again.

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well we tried the nice way - lets try this way and see how it goes.

If by “we” you mean Israel I don’t think they’ve ever tried the nice way. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

In fact i think it's safe to say that moving the terrorist out of your country DOES reduce their ability to commit atrocities inside your country.

I don’t think so because

a) Gaza was basically a giant open-air prison that Israel secured from the outside and much easier to secure than Israel’s external borders and ports of entry  9/11 was an attack from  outsi USA for example  and

b) the number of outraged and radicalized people willing to resort to terrorism from amongst the 2 million Gazans and broader Arab:/Muslim world will be far greater than the current number 

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Yup.  World opinon is against them. Russia can no longer arm them. And Isreal is about to show a little taste of what they can do when they're pissed.

I think that is a serious misreading of current and future global affairs. The world will not be against them so much if there’s a Palestinian holocaust and it will be massively destabilizing in a world which is already unstable. .  The Saudi-Israeli normalization currently underway will he done, strengthening the hand of Iran. Turkey could become security threat from within for NATO.  The Global War on Terror will return, taking more lives around the world and preventing us from effectively containing Russia and China. The Global South will continue to pull away from the West either towards Russia/China or new emerging centres of power such as India and/or Iran, confounding our abilities to address the war on terror or terrorism. And so on. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It's not like we haven't been here before. Half of isreal used to be palisinian.  Now it's down to two hunks of which gaza is one.

Exactly we have been here before and look what it lead to: decades of violence. You there’s been peace and stability ever since? Its the opposite. Shrinking the Palestinian land down to “two hunks” is why there has been never-ending violence in the first place you think doing it again will somehow improve things?

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

People who can control their emotions can realize that sometimes you have to take action to protect yourself. This has been going on for years

That’s not what has been happening on either side of the Israel-Palestine issue and is not what’s happening when people say things like  “it’s time to be cruel” or ‘let their children burn in their beds’ or otherwise cause massive humanitarian disasters like what is expected to unfold in Gaza. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Those who cannot control their emotions pretend that it's acceptable to slaughter innocent women and children without provocation and then complain when there's consequences.

Those who cannot control their emotions falsely claim that people it’s acceptable to slaughter innocent civilians. Those who cannot control their emotions think war crimes and state -sponsored terrorism against innocent civilians are reasonable “consequences”. 
 

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

They don't have to kill the civvies - they just have to throw them out and take back the land.

That will not only cause a humanitarian disaster but will be self-defeating as it will result in more and worse terrorism and conflicts with the the nations of the Arab/Muslim world 

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Bullshit.  Isreal would have been quite happy to live in peace. 

That is bullshit. There are many hardliners and extremist political parties and politicians in Israel amd even though there are also many moderates all of these groups have influence over official government policy. Overall Israel has never been interested in actual peace, as insisting that your enemy surrender solely on your terms is not the same thing as wanting peace. Don’t forget, the Israelis assassinated their own leader in 1995 out of fear he would formally end any possibility of Israel someday annexing of the occupied territories. In the end his peace deal saw Palestine recognize the right of Israel to exist but Israel still hasn’t recognized any right for Palestine to exist.

And Israel has been governed by hardliners ever since an Israeli hardliner assassinated Rabin 28 years ago, with half of those years under Netanyahu as ruler. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So now we are where we are and there is no 'escallation' - just irradication of the threat. Throw them out - take back the land - get rid of them.  ANd if any other country harbours them and allows them to conduct terrorist attacks - blow the shit out of them.

That is the definition of escalation and it will not eradicate any threat.
 

Nobody is suggesting peace with Hamas.  Those who control their emotions can differentiate between the Hamas and Palestinian people and not refer to them interchangeably.

 

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

There's no such thing as 'lopsided' retaliation

Yes when we are talking about civilian casualties there is. That’s the difference between terrorism and legitimate military action. 
 

I am not opposed to killing every single member of Hamas. But in their emotional response to these attacks, some people seem unable to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. Some people seem to be suggesting “the Palestinians killed dozens our babies so we will kill thousands of their babies”. 

 

 

[Nationalist]

8 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If you are not mature enough to debate without making personal attacks then you know what you can do.

Oh yes...you're a real prince. You assume I have racist reasons for my opinion and then try to claim some sort of morality.

Ya gits with ya pays fer prince.

[CdnFox]

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

It’s human nature to think that but thousands of years of human history tells us that’s not how it works in real life.

On the contrary,  history has show us that is precisely how it works.

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After you take their head their relatives take the heads of your entire family, then 20 years later your children take the heads of their families and their friends, and so on ad infinitum.

Nope. Generally that's the end of it. New threats from new sources may emerge but the old threat is done. It's when you DON"T kill them and allow them to live that you run into problems later. You didnt see the lancasters coming back after the war of the roses, the tudors took the spot and held it for 5 monarchs   Again and again in roman times when they wiped someone out that was the end of it entirely - someone else may move into that area and cause problems but the old threat was gone.

First punic war - let the carthanaginians live and they caused trouble till the second punic war - almost entirely wiped  them out and took most their land, they only caused a little trouble till the third war and they were wiped out and never heard from again. Problem solved.

Anyone who says violence never solved anything clearly has not read history.

Now - when both sides are willing to work together for peace then sure - it can work, But that is NOT the case here

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Then with so many headless people on all sides of the equation, a power vacuum occurs and some new third party rises to power and conquers everyone. 

Rarely. Again - rome. the mongols. China.  America. How's them first nations doing in the us militarily these days? We never wiped them out in Canada.... and there's a hell of a lot of conflict.  Hmmmm.   etc etc.

Now i'm glad we didn't try to wipe out our first nations or conquor them the way the states did - but it DOES prove the point.  The country who did has little issue with them - the country that didn't is CHRONICALLY dealing with them. 

THere will always be power struggles no matter what you do but you eliminate the current threat by eliminating it, not by allowing it to fester and grow in your own back yard.

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I am not opposed to killing every single member of Hamas. But in their emotional response to these attacks, some people seem unable to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. Some people seem to be suggesting “the Palestinians killed dozens our babies so we will kill thousands of their babies”. 

As you might be able to tell, if someone dropped me down with a weapon at the front lines of this dispute, I can not say which way I would point my rifle.  As I mentioned in my earlier post: it is all about who has legitimate rights to the land?   The Palestineans did not invite the Jews to come in and take their homes and homeland and I doubt there is a single one of them that isn't very aware of that.  On the other hand: they VOTED for Hamas to be their leadership - and nobody could possibly be ignorant that they are a thinly veiled front for the Ayatollahs and ISIL.   The ONLY way there could have been any kind of peace was with a two state solution.

Fast forward to this week.   What ISIL did (ohhhh...sorry...HAMAS) was with the 100% guarantee there would be massive death among the civilians they were elected to represent.  The Israelis had very little choice but to respond to an attack by THOUSANDS of missiles, not to mention territorial invasion and attrocities.   But: was blowing up 4 thousand or so innocent civilians the appropriate response?  Was depriving them of the necessities of life and telling whole hospitals to move in 24 hours with no resources available to do so the right response?   Of course it isn't and Hamas knew damned well this is what would happen in some form or another.

No way I can "take sides" but I sure as Hell pissed off with Romans and Zionists (who BTW were the original terrorists by most definitions).

 

[cannuck]

6 minutes ago, cannuck said:

As you might be able to tell,

I also need to observe and remember that religion is probably the most divisive thing man has ever come up with - and a perfect display of our collective stupidity, ignorance and greed.

 

wrong buttons, 

Edited October 14, 2023 by cannuck

[Guest]

7 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Those who cannot control their emotions falsely claim that people it’s acceptable to slaughter innocent civilians.

I don't think that it is acceptable to kill innocent civilians, but one must understand that even in targeting the enemy, that unintended collateral damage will be inevitable. 

I think what Hamas has done, warrants a firm and resolute response. Anything short of this, would be unnacceptable. 

One must look at 9/11, and the wars that occurred afterwards.

One must look at Pearl Harbor, and the indiscriminate attacks on civilians that followed.

The US hasn't said much against Israel as its their ally, but they would be hypocrites in doing so.

Russia would be hypocrites in doing so.

Lebanon, a country responsible for the deaths of thousands of their own civilians, due to corruption, would be hypocrites.

Egypt. 

I could go on.

Israel has the right to defend itself, but the responsibility to minimize civilian casualties.

I hope no sovereign country has to answer to a population once thousands of their own population were needlessly maimed or killed by foreign attackers who breached their borders.

I just don't see any country showing that enemy any mercy, or wanting to relent on the pressure that would immediately and firmly be placed on the backs of those responsible for it.

I see it like breaking into a home in Texas. Don't want a bullet between your eyes, avoid doing so.

Just like you should avoid doing what Hamas has done.

Otherwise, face the consequences.

[eyeball]

35 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Otherwise, face the consequences.

Yup. Conflict and war is what the world gets for plunking a new country down on top of people.

There was no excuse for it and even though it's a fact on the ground now, so are the consequences.

[CITIZEN_2015]

7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Oh yes...you're a real prince. You assume I have racist reasons for my opinion and then try to claim some sort of morality.

Ya gits with ya pays fer prince.

I didn't say that. 

You said level off Gaza well knowing there are one and half million children and women among 2.3 million. Would you have said that if there were so many Europeans residing there? While condemning strongly Hamas's terror actions last week but be fair in analysis. What would have been your reaction if they had made you refugee from birth, killed your parents and taken your land?. Also don.t condemn over 2 million civilians to death for the actions of a few thousand,

Edited October 14, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

I challenge forum members to watch this to the end so that you realize what is that most of you supporting and decide if you are willing to consciously continue your support.

 

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I challenge forum members to watch this to the end so that you realize what is that most of you supporting and decide if you are willing to consciously continue your support.

I support Israel's right to defend its land.

You have people from Gaza, who came into Israel, with insanely detailed plans to kidnap children, and women.

They even had mapped out where these people could be found. 

If all else failed, that they would simply have to kill them.

When people in Gaza were cheering the successful completion of such a mission, there is absolutely nothing that justifies that level of brutality.

Having families watch as siblings get beheaded before them.

Babies beheaded.

Women paraded naked, every limb broken. 

What in the world justifies this level of barbaric retort?

And Israel is being cried about because they have the power and technology to level Gaza, but haven't?

If Hamas could beat the iron dome, do you think they would want to discuss things, or would they want o wipe Israel from the map?

Ridiculous. 

I feel they should respect the rules of engagement, and ample warning should be provided to minimize civilian casualties, but I think no stone should be left unturned, in putting the weight of the entire globe onto the shoulders of Hamas.

That "People shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few hundred" logic makes no sense.

If Russian war jets bomb Washington, killing thousands, don't you think this would warrant a very firm rebuke for it?

To me, the gravity of it all would have to deter anyone else from trying again.

 

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Having families watch as siblings get beheaded before them.

Babies beheaded.

Women paraded naked, every limb broken. 

What in the world justifies this level of barbaric retort?

These allegations have been denied since.

Like yourself I was very mad last week when I heard all these atrocities. Hamas as stupid as they are, are not stupid enough to behead children and make movies of their actions and publicize it in the whole world. They have nothing to gain but hate for themselves.  I am beginning to wonder now if all these have been false news by Israelis.

No one has seen the bodies of beheaded children,  Only one reporter reported these crimes and it was circulated like lightening all over the world but she did not see them either and quoted Israeli army spaceperson. 

True they did kill lots of civilians and that is bad enough for them not innocent people to be punished but I seriously question beheadings and tapes.

Edited October 14, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yup. Conflict and war is what the world gets for plunking a new country down on top of people.

 

Sure. I mean it never happens outside of that

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

These allegations have been denied since.

Like yourself I was very mad last week when I heard all these atrocities. Hamas as stupid as they are, are not stupid enough to behead children and make movies of their actions and publicize it in the whole world.

They were stupid enough to push a woman and her baby down and shoot them and publish that,

Sorry - you trying to lie about what they did and downplay it like they "ONLY" shot the kid it's  not like they beheaded him is disgusting, and you lose any right to be morally outranged after that.

WHat the eff is wrong with you?  How is that ok with you to the point where you will defend their actions?

The ONLY reasonable answer is to utterly destroy that country and scatter it's people to the wind.  And appologists like you prove that - otherwise in a week you'll be encouraging them to do it again. Some already are.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I am beginning to wonder now if all these have been false news by Israelis.

Do you want to see footage? 

I have seen footage of mutilated corpses of both women and children. I don't watch news. I prefer to see it raw, and base my opinion on that.

Not sure of this site's rules, but I can assure you  if you do a simple Google search, you will see actual footage of the carnage that Hamas left behind.

I am not stating what I have seen because I saw it on the news...

These people (Hamas) are animals. Period.

Don't they understand that people have cellphones? 

16 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Like yourself I was very mad last week when I heard all these atrocities

I wasn't mad at all. I am surprised at people cheering for it, and saying that this was necessary. How is rape, murder and mutilation of women, children and entire families, necessary?

Do you want the links to the footage PMed to you, for you to see with your own eyes and judged not on what I tell you, but the very footage that you see? 

18 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

seriously question beheadings and tapes

Again, the footage I have seen wouldn't be admissible on the news. 

Thats the down side. Hard to believe what the news won't show you.

You need to stop looking at the news for info.

People on both sides have cellphones. Hundreds of video easily available to give you a raw, unedited view of what its like in Gaza getting shelled, and pulling rubble off of motionless bodies, and the same for how it was like for those running from their lives.

Families and kids being burned alive in their homes and cars (if they were lucky), or brutally maimed and at times, forcing their families to watch in horror.

I honestly wish I could show you the footage. You would stop defending Hamas. 

You would see this carnage for what it is. Innocent civilians at the bottom, forced to pay for the actions of those at the top.

[CITIZEN_2015]

25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

They were stupid enough to push a woman and her baby down and shoot them and publish that,

Sorry - you trying to lie about what they did and downplay it like they "ONLY" shot the kid it's  not like they beheaded him is disgusting, and you lose any right to be morally outranged after that.

WHat the eff is wrong with you?  How is that ok with you to the point where you will defend their actions?

The ONLY reasonable answer is to utterly destroy that country and scatter it's people to the wind.  And appologists like you prove that - otherwise in a week you'll be encouraging them to do it again. Some already are.

You are a BIG liar not me. It is clear from my posts that I have condemned Hamas and have asked for their destruction but you lie so openly and accuse me of defending them.  

It is YOU who is defending the genocide of women and children in Gaza. So far 700 children have been murdered by Israelis or it doesn't matter to you because these are just Palestinian lives not Israelis.

Edited October 15, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I didn't say that. 

You said level off Gaza well knowing there are one and half million children and women among 2.3 million. Would you have said that if there were so many Europeans residing there? While condemning strongly Hamas's terror actions last week but be fair in analysis. What would have been your reaction if they had made you refugee from birth, killed your parents and taken your land?. Also don.t condemn over 2 million civilians to death for the actions of a few thousand,

People like you create endless streams of blood. Generations of fighting. No resolution. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

11 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Do you want to see footage? 

I have seen footage of mutilated corpses of both women and children. I don't watch news. I prefer to see it raw, and base my opinion on that.

 

I have seen them too and there is no doubt in my mind that Hamas terrorists are murderous bastards. I was saying that beheaded bodies of children have not been seen by anyone independent other than reported by Israeli soldiers.

Onr thing is for sure. Israel now has the green light to do things that they could not do as a result of what happened last Saturday.

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

People like you create endless streams of blood. Generations of fighting. No resolution. 

And your resolution to end violence is to level them off. Nuke the whole worlds then there will be no fighting anymore. I hope you are not a physician. Someone come to you with a headache and instead of curing the root of problem you will suggest to cut his aching head off.

Edited October 15, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

And your resolution to end violence is to level them off. Nuke the whole worlds then there will be no fighting anymore.

I didn't say nuke anyone. It's a small area. Just carpet bomb it. Isreal must leave no doubt in the minds of the Palestinians and others, that attacks will be met with overwhelming and brutal force.

[CITIZEN_2015]

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I didn't say nuke anyone. It's a small area. Just carpet bomb it. Isreal must leave no doubt in the minds of the Palestinians and others, that attacks will be met with overwhelming and brutal force.

Yes this has been the nature of Israelis. Has it worked? They only create more future terrorists. The children you see fleeing and injured losing their parents are future Hamas terrorists. Your solution to kill all those fleeing injured children too to make sure in future they don.t turn terrorist's because of atrocities committed against them and so that there are no more terrorism is NOT acceptable to me. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[CdnFox]

32 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You are a BIG liar not me.

Says the liar.

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It is clear from my posts that I have condemned Hamas and have asked for their destruction but you lie so openly and accuse me of defending them.  

Its clear you're standing up for them now.  Old trick - "oh yeah sure what they did was really terrible - but you know, or was it?"

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It is YOU who is defending the genocide of women and children in Gaza.

And here's the other old trick  "if you get caught, blame the other guy for what you did".

Defending hamas makes you a piece of crap boy,.  And palistine elected them.   They deserve anything that happens to them at this point, because scumbags like you will be back to say how it's actually all isreal's fault that hamas slaughtered innocent women and children.