Hamas Attacks Israel

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, eyeball said:

A final settlement by force will only come to pass if the world stops watching and if you really don't care what happens to Palestine you should be concentrating on how to make that happen.  Simply wiping Palestine off the map isn't enough, you need to wipe it from history and memory.

Anything but a hard-boiled right-wing AFAIC. Secular and progressive is the only hope, otherwise no one's getting out alive.

The world has been watching for the past 90 days, and have done nothing except talk...many have been rattling their swords, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the only ones to act are terrorist groups backed by Iran....Israel will be finished before anything gets resolved...the clock will start ticking only when the US stops supporting Israel...

Israel does not want to wipe them from history just Gaza and maybe the west bank...thats the price for peace so be it...

It is only a matter of time before this grows into something much bigger, Israel is already attacking targets in Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and west bank...while US naval forces deal with Houthi's rockets and pirate boats...

Israel has come to the conclusion that if Palestinians can't live in peace next to them they will push them into the sea, by bombing the city so it is nothing but rubble...they will have to live some where, just not gaza.... Hamas will be destroyed by Israel or it will be destroyed by Palestinians...

[eyeball]

17 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

It is only a matter of time before this grows into something much bigger,

Apparently the Doomsday Clock is at 90 seconds before midnight right now - the closest to midnight it's ever been.  I think they're blaming the war in Ukraine though.

24 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Hamas will be destroyed by Israel or it will be destroyed by Palestinians...

 And then what? Wait until the lawn needs mowing again.

[Army Guy]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Apparently the Doomsday Clock is at 90 seconds before midnight right now - the closest to midnight it's ever been.  I think they're blaming the war in Ukraine though.

 And then what? Wait until the lawn needs mowing again.

When the majority in the world supports a terrorist groups activities maybe it is time to see what happens at midnight..

Nope they are going to finish it in 2024...and the world will sit by and watch...i mean really who is going to care...

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

 And then what? Wait until the lawn needs mowing again.

Or just salt the earth.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

When the majority in the world supports a terrorist groups activities maybe it is time to see what happens at midnight..

You know me, I've always been a big believer in the value of a good smack upside the head - the world has it coming simply due to the respectability so many dictators enjoy these days - there's no excuse whatsoever for not knowing better than to let that happen.

70 per cent of the world’s population now live in dictatorships, according to this year’s report on democracy from the Varieties of Democracy (V-Dem) Institute at the University of Gothenburg.

https://www.gu.se/en/news/dictatorships-advancing-globally

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You know me, I've always been a big believer in the value of a good smack upside the head

well that's what the Gazans are getting right now.  So i'm not sure why you're complaining.

[eyeball]

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

well that's what the Gazans are getting right now.  So i'm not sure why you're complaining.

Because I don't have any evidence that Gazans had a single clue about what Hamas was about to drag them into.

I notice a lot of Israelis also similarly complaining how Netanyahu's government left Israelis in the lurch.

Edited January 1, 2024 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Because I don't have any evidence that Gazans had a single clue about what Hamas was about to drag them into.

 

well that in and of itself is somewhat telling.  A lot of gazans left gaza over the years - but all the protests we see around the world are in support of the war and hamas.  You don't see any starting up demanding elections or surrender or releasing the hostages or anything like that.

So while i could accept that hamas might repress some of the people directly under it's control it does not explain nobody who isn't under their control seems to have a problem with what they did or what they're doing, or is demanding their surrender or elections or anything like that.  SO it's pretty hard to beleive there are very many who DON"T support hamas.

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I notice a lot of Israelis also similarly complaining how Netanyahu's government left Israelis in the lurch.

Sure - on the israeli side there's commentary in both directions - why didn't we stop this, why aren't we finding a way to make peace, are we doing the right thing, question question question. Which is what you get when people have different opinions and don't all agree with the gov't.  (remembering that there's a lot of palestinains who live in israel btw)

But on the Palestinian side its' just "death to the jews".  These people are united in their unwillingness to let the jews remaind and their support of hamas' actions.

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But on the Palestinian side its' just "death to the jews".  These people are united in their unwillingness to let the jews remaind and their support of hamas' actions.

That's no more true than saying every Jew wants Palestine eradicated. Did you know there were Jews murdered on Oct 7 who believed in making peace with Palestine and the friends and family mourning them intend to keep that faith alive?

Believe it or not but Middle Easterners are amongst some of the most united people on the planet.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's no more true than saying every Jew wants Palestine eradicated.

It is 100 percent more true.  Demonstrably - that's not even arguable.

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Did you know there were Jews murdered on Oct 7 who believed in making peace with Palestine and the friends and family mourning them intend to keep that faith alive?

You just proved my point. Think about it for a minute.

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Believe it or not but Middle Easterners are amongst some of the most united people on the planet.

You just proved that isn't true for the jews. Only the Palestinians. And they're united behind the death of the jews.

[eyeball]

39 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

You just proved that isn't true for the jews. Only the Palestinians.

Nope there's good people on both sides. There always have been and there always will be.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Nope there's good people on both sides. There always have been and there always will be.

Well we can see that on the israeli side plenty  but on the gaza side.... those people could play hide and seek for the olympics.

So i have to ask - what's your evidence of any significant number of anti war pro two state anti hamas on the other side? Because historically no, there AREN'T always on both sides.

[eyeball]

52 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well we can see that on the israeli side plenty  but on the gaza side.... those people could play hide and seek for the olympics.

So i have to ask - what's your evidence of any significant number of anti war pro two state anti hamas on the other side? Because historically no, there AREN'T always on both sides.

There are even Palestinians and Jews living married under the same roof. There's no reason why a one-state solution shouldn't be possible and maybe even preferable. 

The number of peaceful people willing to co-exist is not the significant factor.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

There are even Palestinians and Jews living married under the same roof.

 

irrelevant.

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There's no reason why a one-state solution shouldn't be possible and maybe even preferable.

I would agree but that's my perspective and probably your perspective and possibly the perspective of many israels - but it is NOT the perspective of gaza specifically and palestinians in general as near as i can see and despite being asked you're unable to provide any evidence that there IS a substantial support for that in the palestinian communities. They are ALL shouting from the river to the sea as far as i can say. 

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The number of peaceful people willing to co-exist is not the significant factor.

 

It is the only significant factor.  It cannot ever happen without fairly widespread support.  IT's that simple.

[eyeball]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

irrelevant.

Not at all because it disproves the absolute certainty that is at the foundation of all your conclusions, beliefs and statements thereof.

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It is the only significant factor.  It cannot ever happen without fairly widespread support.  IT's that simple.

Not to anyone who knows peace is achievable. Saying somethings impossible while people are doing it is blind certainty.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Not at all because it disproves the absolute certainty that is at the foundation of all your conclusions, beliefs and statements thereof.

 

LOLOLOL!!!!!!  Uh huh   well i guess that's one way of saying you lost without saying it

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Not to anyone who knows peace is achievable. Saying somethings impossible while people are doing it is blind certainty.

To literally everyone who isnt' blinded by false ideology and fantasy based support for one side.

You cannot have peace without widespread support from the people. That's just a simple fact.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

You cannot have peace without widespread support from the people. That's just a simple fact.

You can certainly get started without widespread support but to simply say peace isn't possible at all doesn't make it a fact.

[Moonbox]

17 hours ago, eyeball said:

Because I don't have any evidence that Gazans had a single clue about what Hamas was about to drag them into.

No?  The Gazans weren't aware of all of the previous conflicts that Hamas dragged them into?  They weren't aware of any of the rockets being fired into Israel, the kidnappings, or the publicized suicide bombings?  They weren't aware that Israel's destruction was one of Hamas' primary goals?  

Right...🙄

 

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No?  The Gazans weren't aware of all of the previous conflicts that Hamas dragged them into?  They weren't aware of any of the rockets being fired into Israel, the kidnappings, or the publicized suicide bombings?  They weren't aware that Israel's destruction was one of Hamas' primary goals?  

Right...🙄

Of course they're aware of resistance everyone that's subjugated supports resisting it.  Notwithstanding the sort of atrocities committed on Oct 7 there are very few human beings alive that would feel differently.

Would you just give up and submit if it was you?

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Of course they're aware of resistance everyone that's subjugated supports resisting it.  Notwithstanding the sort of atrocities committed on Oct 7 there are very few human beings alive that would feel differently.

Would you just give up and submit if it was you?

Ahhh - so if they suport it then they support it,and if they don't support it then of course they support  it  

When you find yourself writing more fiction and doing more worldbuilding than JK Rowlings to support your claim, it's probably not real.

Gaza supports this and they will never accept a jewish state. That's where we're at.  Pretending otherwise is as silly as inviting a dementor home for dinner.

[Moonbox]

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Of course they're aware of resistance everyone that's subjugated supports resisting it.  Notwithstanding the sort of atrocities committed on Oct 7 there are very few human beings alive that would feel differently.

You realize you're contradicting yourself then, right? They're aware of all this, but were somehow unaware that they'd be drawn into conflict with Israel by supporting, fighting for and hiding the terrorists that were bent on its destruction.  Oof.  

 

 

[Moonbox]

17 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Gaza supports this and they will never accept a jewish state. That's where we're at.  Pretending otherwise is as silly as inviting a dementor home for dinner.

There are lots of Gazans who do.  The more secular Fatah was far more willing to negotiate on a proper settlement, but Hamas and its supporters would have nothing to do with it.  Even if it's only 40% of Gaza that supports Hamas, what difference does that make to Israel?  They don't exactly line up an announce they're Hamas militants, so as long as the Gazans let themselves be human shields, that's what Hamas will make them into.  

Edited January 2, 2024 by Moonbox

[eyeball]

22 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

You realize you're contradicting yourself then, right? They're aware of all this, but were somehow unaware that they'd be drawn into conflict with Israel by supporting, fighting for and hiding the terrorists that were bent on its destruction.  Oof.  

Not at all.  Palestinians know full well they've been in conflict with Israel since 1945. I did not say anything about their awareness of or support for the atrocities committed on Oct 7.

As for all the rhetoric about destruction, there are arseholes on both sides.

[Moonbox]

35 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Not at all.  Palestinians know full well they've been in conflict with Israel since 1945. I did not say anything about their awareness of or support for the atrocities committed on Oct 7.

The specificity is irrelevant.  If they knew about all of the bombings, kidnappings, murders, rocket attacks etc over the last 15 years, they obviously knew what Hamas was about, what they get up to and what they're capable of.  That they scaled up their terrorism and atrocity changes what, exactly? 

41 minutes ago, eyeball said:

As for all the rhetoric about destruction, there are arseholes on both sides.

A nothing-point.  That's always the case.  

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

There are lots of Gazans who do. 

They appear to be in the very small minority.

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The more secular Fatah was far more willing to negotiate on a proper settlement, but Hamas and its supporters would have nothing to do with it. 

Seeing as they're in control that represents a problem.

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Even if it's only 40% of Gaza that supports Hamas, what difference does that make to Israel?  They don't exactly line up an announce they're Hamas militants, so as long as the Gazans let themselves be human shields, that's what Hamas will make them into.  

The end result is the same. There can be no peace unless gaza accepts that concept and they don't.  Isreal cannot negotiate with the gazans individually - The majority has to believe in peace and a two state solution or it doesn't even begin to work.

Maybe given the devastation of this war they'll change their mind and decide hamas needs to go and rise up, but if they don't then we're right back where we started and the only option is permanent militarization or better yet just ship everyone somewhere else and turn the strip into a park.