De-zone the whole greenbelt

[I am Groot]

Terrance Corcoran makes some very valid points you won't see elsewhere in the media. Like reminding readers the 'green belt' is not some ancient holy site but was invented by the Dalton McGuinty Liberals and slapped into place with almost no consultation. People who owned the land within it were simply notified that their land could no longer be developed. And if that cost them money, well so what?

For months, the people of Ontario have been called to worship the Greenbelt Holy Land, a massive 810,000-hectare (two-million-acre) land mass that entraps the 6.7 million residents of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA), Canada’s largest metropolis. Voters have also been led to believe — by media, activists and political hackers — that the Greenbelt area that sprawls around the GTA is the hallowed product of a sacred text known as the Greenbelt Act to protect what is known as The Golden Horseshoe.

The call to worship at this modern-day version of the Golden Calf began when it was revealed that Premier Doug Ford’s Progressive Conservative government planned to breach the commandments of the 2005 Greenbelt Act by allowing 2,995 hectares (about 0.4 per cent of the sacred territory) to be released into the hands of devilish and corrupt real estate developers to build new homes.

Oh, the anguish, the shock, the horror and the sorrow. In the months that followed came political hellfire, including an auditor general’s report and an integrity commissioner’s report along with endless moralizing editorials and media commentary. All condemned the Ford government’s sacrilegious plan to allow a marginal encroachment into the Green Holy Land.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/dezone-ontario-greenbelt-greentrap-free-toronto?

[eyeball]

Like a lot of people Terrance Corcoran seems oblivious, however disingenuously, to what's pissing people off the most about all this.

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“Tearing apart of swath of the Greenbelt for the fewest bit of super-wealthy developers, who have millions of millions of dollars at their disposal, to make more money, billions of dollars, is abhorrent.”

https://www.baytoday.ca/local-news/abhorrent-angry-citizens-take-greenbelt-protest-to-simcoe-mpps-office-7411482

 

 

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

People who owned the land within it were simply notified that their land could no longer be developed. And if that cost them money, well so what?

I can't imagine anyone who would feel more angry than these particular people.

The sacred sanctity of the Greenbelt Corcoran is blathering away about is not what people are pissed off about - it's the sheer graphic violation of public trust in government on display in this particular case that's galvanizing people's attention.

$10 says Corcoran, like a lot of other disingenuous suspects, has no use whatsoever for transparency either.  

Edited September 7, 2023 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The sacred sanctity of the Greenbelt Corcoran is blathering away about is not what people are pissed off about - it's the sheer graphic violation of public trust in government on display in this particular case that's galvanizing people's attention.

 

Nah.  Public doesn't give a crap about that. If they did trudeau would be long gone and dalton and wynne would have been tossed a hell of a lot earlier.

They care about the "sacred green belt" and facts be damned.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Terence Corcoran, the tireless apologist for our obscene telecom oligopoly? That guy? Unbelievably, he is still at it:
 

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Which brings us to what now looks like another Boswellian blunder. In a ruling just after Christmas, the tribunal shot down the commissioner’s attempt to block the $26-billion Rogers-Shaw telecom merger, a transaction portrayed by the academic and populist guardians of competition mythology as a threat to the fundamental right of Canadians to an essential service: cheap cellphones. Anything less than cheap is the evil product of monopoly market power wielded by conniving corporate executives and billionaire controlling families.

 

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/terence-corcoran-absurdity-canadas-competition-131505976.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNhLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFQlnFHG1f3yy_Rf28UFWLdaJh_bOaRr3Zes0MYvMer08uHYkZHhg4Nangw-XmH7Y__OSUNurtKkSrRFazEuMHLbi17kv_4RhojQuifWRvRESfwXkF8COzK2XSx2vdyYjS5TO97zTbFov9w19RPYIn77qzdbzAsHShvlTCNqbXpj

BTW millions of acres mean nothing to anybody other than farmers in their dreams. Try converting it to square miles or kms to make it intelligible.

Edited September 7, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[eyeball]

27 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Nah.  Public doesn't give a crap about that. If they did trudeau would be long gone and dalton and wynne would have been tossed a hell of a lot earlier.

They care about the "sacred green belt" and facts be damned.

I think you're really only saying that because you've invested time in eschewing transparency and mocking the public for putting up with it. 

Quote

Finally, after this month’s auditor general’s report, we have proof of the corrupt process we suspected all along. If Ford is going to pave over our farms, forests and wetlands so wealthy elites can make $8.3 billion, what’s next?

Ford’s Greenbelt giveaway has Ontarians picking up on an ugly pattern: the funnelling of public goods into private hands, at the expense of the rest of us.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/doug-ford-s-greenbelt-giveaway-is-just-the-beginning-unless-we-fight-back/article_6da04d41-ada7-5595-a2b8-8e65c6e5df9c.html

 

Hard-boiled right-wingers are a little more woke all the time to suspicions about governments colluding behind the scenes to enrich or empower things like Big Pharma or Big Tech. So welcome to Big Development. It's been going on for decades but like you, much of the right wing, for decades, has invested a lot of time and effort defending against too much oversight of the wealthiest interests in our economy along with taxing them, regulating them, organizing against them, etc etc etc.

You've got an awful lot of kool aid to get over.

No doubt the Fraser Institute and other think-tanks will be coming out shortly with bromides about a tempest in a teapot and gushing teacups full of sympathy for hard-done-by would-be homeowners caught up in the tempest.

[CdnFox]

23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I think you're really only saying that because you've invested time in eschewing transparency and mocking the public for putting up with it. 

 

Nah.  You just like to pretend you think that so you don't have to address the issue. If you really believed that you wouldn't have broken out your word of the day calendar and misused the word 'eschew' ,  you'd have offered an intelligent and reasoned response arguing why that wasn't accurate. And ya couldn't    So ya don't  

And i mock liberal voters for having access to transparency but doing nothing with it.

Simple fact - the more liberal public has never cared about the gov't violating their trust. They DO love pretending to care about the environment.  So - there you go

[eyeball]

32 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And i mock liberal voters for having access to transparency but doing nothing with it.

That's nothing compared to Conservatives leaving Accountability In Government Acts wide open to Liberal politicians to abuse.

Heelarious!  

[CdnFox]

8 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's nothing compared to Conservatives leaving Accountability In Government Acts wide open to Liberal politicians to abuse.

Well first off that didn't happen and second off  - it's !diotic to say that somehow leaving open the possibility for a corrupt liberal gov't to abuse 'accountability'  is WORSE than the liberals actually doing the abuse AND their voters fully supporting it .  LIke, how dumb do you have to be to suggest that?  That's like "my mommy drank a lot while she was pregnant with me"  levels of dumb. 

There's nothing a conservative gov't can do to stop liberals from being corrupt when they get into power.  They made it so that the public would KNOW about the liberals corruption - and that happened.  But if the liberal voters such as yourself insist on being scumbags and continuing to support the liberals as you have DESPITE the corruption, then the fault is on you. Not the Conservatives.

[ExFlyer]

The greenbelt in the "golden horseshoe". Who actually owns it?

In the Ottawa area, the "greenbelt" is owned by the National Capital Commission.

Who owns all that property down there?? Farmers? Landowners? We are all crapping on the Ford government for "selling" it to developers but are they the actual owners??

[Boges]

I am pretty sure the land DoFo and Co. took from the Greenbelt were not going to high density real estate, which is something the province desperately needs. 

 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well first off that didn't happen and second off  - it's !diotic to say that somehow leaving open the possibility for a corrupt liberal gov't to abuse 'accountability'

Yeah it really did happen, the Accountability Act isn't worth the paper it was written on.

Quote

There's nothing a conservative gov't can do to stop liberals from being corrupt when they get into power.  

And by the very same token if a Liberal wanted to commit murder there's nothing anyone could do about it?

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yeah it really did happen, the Accountability Act isn't worth the paper it was written on.

 

No, it didn't happen at all.  And the accountability act caught trudeua a number of times.  Not the conservatives fault that you keep voting for someone you know is corrupt.

Quote

And by the very same token if a Liberal wanted to commit murder there's nothing anyone could do about it?

 

That's true.  A liberal can commit a murder toady if they want.

And if they do - and the liberals pass a law saying "Murders are now legal in those circumstances" - then they'll get away with it too.

And if the liberal supporters say "well we don't mind a little murder as long as it's our side doing it, here have another mandate", then they'll keep doing it.

Glad you're finally realizing the truth. Took you long enough

 

 

[eyeball]

52 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That's true.  A liberal can commit a murder toady if they want.

And if they do - and the liberals pass a law saying "Murders are now legal in those circumstances" - then they'll get away with it too.

And if the liberal supporters say "well we don't mind a little murder as long as it's our side doing it, here have another mandate", then they'll keep doing it.

Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Legato]

6 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The greenbelt in the "golden horseshoe". Who actually owns it?

In the Ottawa area, the "greenbelt" is owned by the National Capital Commission.

Who owns all that property down there?? Farmers? Landowners? We are all crapping on the Ford government for "selling" it to developers but are they the actual owners??

That's a valid point. Who's pants is the green belt holding up.

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

Like a lot of people Terrance Corcoran seems oblivious, however disingenuously, to what's pissing people off the most about all this.

“Tearing apart of swath of the Greenbelt for the fewest bit of super-wealthy developers, who have millions of millions of dollars at their disposal, to make more money, billions of dollars, is abhorrent.”

Well, if you're going to make land out and have it developed what makes more sense? Taking land out of the Greenbelt that is owned by farmers or land that was bought by developers with the intention of developing it but frozen in time for twenty years? That bit about making 'billions of dollars' is also kind of disingenuous. It's based on the assumed value if this land were all developed and sold. It does NOT take into account the cost of developing it.

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

I can't imagine anyone who would feel more angry than these particular people.

You know that includes some developers, right? They had already bought land there with the intention of developing it when the freeze on all development was put in place.

[I am Groot]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:40 AM, ExFlyer said:

Who owns all that property down there?? Farmers? Landowners? We are all crapping on the Ford government for "selling" it to developers but are they the actual owners??

 

AFAIK none of it was owned by the government. They simply declared the land, owned by farmers, cottages, developers or whomever, to be a part of the 'greenbelt' and that was that. All the land the government declared part of the greenbelt suddenly lost much of its value, and never appreciated over the years as it otherwise should have.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by I am Groot

[ExFlyer]

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

 

AFAIK none of it was owned by the government. They simply declared the land, owned by farmers, cottages, developers or whomever, to be a part of the 'greenbelt' and that was that. All the land the government    ?????

 

So, "farmers, cottages, developers or whomever" made money from selling their property?

Having their land put in the greenbelt stifled their opportunity to make money from their properties.

I guess the upset people were really folks that had no stake in the land, just blowhards?

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Don't be ridiculous.

 

Sorry kid - that was all true.  I get that it upsets your echo chamber ideology but - that is the way it is

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Well, if you're going to make land out and have it developed what makes more sense? Taking land out of the Greenbelt that is owned by farmers or land that was bought by developers with the intention of developing it but frozen in time for twenty years? That bit about making 'billions of dollars' is also kind of disingenuous. It's based on the assumed value if this land were all developed and sold. It does NOT take into account the cost of developing it.

You know that includes some developers, right? They had already bought land there with the intention of developing it when the freeze on all development was put in place.

They probably should have been compensated, perhaps that would have been the better way to ensure the  protection would last.

In any case it seems you're not the least bit concerned about what's abhorrent in the public's mind. I don't know, perhaps you're a Liberal, I've been told they appreciate corruption.

The only real faux pas Ford is guilty of is getting caught. It's another example off something I've noted before about corruption and Conservatives, they suck at it. They always get caught and seem to pay a higher political price I for it.

If you really do believe corruption is the grease that makes the economy work and without which we'd be a poorer nation you probably should vote for the party that's better at it don't you think?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Sorry kid - that was all true.

You're still being ridiculous. Try giving your head a shake.

[I am Groot]

15 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

So, "farmers, cottages, developers or whomever" made money from selling their property?

Having their land put in the greenbelt stifled their opportunity to make money from their properties.

I guess the upset people were really folks that had no stake in the land, just blowhards?

Somehow the last portion of that post got deleted before posting. Don't know how. I've now fixed it. But no, the government never bought the land. It was simply declared part of this 'no development' zone. You can imagine what that did to land values over the years.

[I am Groot]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

They probably should have been compensated, perhaps that would have been the better way to ensure the  protection would last.

In any case it seems you're not the least bit concerned about what's abhorrent in the public's mind. I don't know, perhaps you're a Liberal, I've been told they appreciate corruption.

The only real faux pas Ford is guilty of is getting caught. It's another example off something I've noted before about corruption and Conservatives, they suck at it. They always get caught and seem to pay a higher political price I for it.

If you really do believe corruption is the grease that makes the economy work and without which we'd be a poorer nation you probably should vote for the party that's better at it don't you think?

I've lived in Ottawa almost all my life. I know damned well that every government at every level is going to help out its friends and those who donate money to it. Patronage is a fact of life. I only get bothered by it when it starts costing the public money, like when the government directs a fat contract to someone who can't properly do it, or who gives companies contracts for things that are greatly overpriced and could be supplied elsewhere cheaper, or when it hires people to do jobs that don't need doing, or for which they're not qualified. 

Asf ar as I can tell this didn't cost the public a penny. And it'll get some housing built. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, as I've said before, under the Century Initiative, the greenbelts are doomed anyway. If you want to triple or quadruple the population of southern Ontario the greenbelts have to go.

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I know damned well that every government at every level is going to help out its friends and those who donate money to it. Patronage is a fact of life.  I only get bothered by it when it starts costing the public money

I get pissed off at it because of people like you who think corruption is no big deal.

Quote

Asf ar as I can tell this didn't cost the public a penny. And it'll get some housing built. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned.

It cost public trust in government.  Not worth the win AFAIC.

Quote

Besides, as I've said before, under the Century Initiative, the greenbelts are doomed anyway. If you want to triple or quadruple the population of southern Ontario the greenbelts have to go.

I don't think we can help but triple or quadruple our population simply due to an influx of climate change refugees.  In which case we'll need all the greenspace we have to produce food. The greenbelts need to stay.

[CdnFox]

14 hours ago, eyeball said:

You're still being ridiculous. Try giving your head a shake.

There's nothing ridiculous about it.  And if there was you'd be able to articulate why - but you know you can't.  You could try to lie or bullshit but you know i'd pick it apart in 2 seconds.

What i said is the absolute unvarnished truth. Sorry.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Somehow the last portion of that post got deleted before posting. Don't know how. I've now fixed it. But no, the government never bought the land. It was simply declared part of this 'no development' zone. You can imagine what that did to land values over the years.

I guess that is one problem I have with this greenbelt thing.

The liberal government arbitrarily made a greenbelt and made lots of land basically worthless to the owner. Now that the conservatives released a bunch of land from the greenbelt, the folks that own the land made a lot of money (the developers will too ).

Did we punish the landowners and now we allow them to profit from their own land and that is bad??

I suspect much of the land was dormant anyway, not farms , ]ust empty lots with trees on it. The tree huggers are OK with that but, the landowners looked at it as an investment with future profit.  Now it is all in limbo again.

Not sure whose side I am on here. The previous government, the present government, the actual landowners, the developers that want it buy it or ?