22 per cent of Canadian homebuilders cancel projects amid high rates despite severe housing shortage

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No, this is an animated response: 

 

My response was plain text and factual

No other country matters.   It's a loser excuse.  Should we allow guns to be given to our criminals because the US has a problem with guns? It's stupid.

As to the conservatives there's no doubt the problem would not have been as severe.  They had much better control over immigration, everyone loved their immigration policies. If they did NOT take the appropriate steps then they should be held to account the same way.  They have the same power.

Why?  

It's the kind of thing people tend to parrot without understanding the math. But-  perhaps you've studied it more than most,  explain to me why it is a substantial part of the problem and show your math. Obviously it's going to be a little general but you should be able to demonstrate where this would solve anything.

Actually vertical sprawl is starting to destroy neighborhoods and quality of life due to overcrowded roads, sidewalks, and transit.  The argument was that the greater density would make transit more viable because it would require less government subsidy, but in fact governments are slow to build new subways and refuse to build high speed rail.  Instead they’re busy pushing gender ideology and expensive climate action shell games. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Actually vertical sprawl is starting to destroy neighborhoods and quality of life due to overcrowded roads, sidewalks, and transit.  The argument was that the greater density would make transit more viable because it would require less government subsidy, but in fact governments are slow to build new subways and refuse to build high speed rail.  Instead they’re busy pushing gender ideology and expensive climate action shell games. 

Greater density allows much lower costs of service delivery ...  IF... the infrastructure for it was put in place initially or can be upgraded.  If so - then you need fewer hospitals per person which means fewer specialized machines - it's easier to provide water and sewer (if it was put in place), it's easier for mass transit, it's much much better for the city from a property tax point of view because you have a hell of a lot more units paying property taxes, It's easier to do 'mixed' or the so called 15 minute communities.

BUT.  if the area wasn't set up for it - if the sewer system and road system etc wasn't built with that in mind ... it's a severe problem. 

And it's MORE money per sq foot to build tall. And there is the 'rat' phenomenon where people crammed into smaller areas can get a little more hostile. And things like protests (honk honk!) tend to affect a much larger number of people so those areas attract them.

There are other issues as well.

So there comes a point where the returns on increasing density no longer outweigh the disadvantages.  It's wise to build out new areas in teh burbs etc. with much higher future density in mind.  And to look at which areas can be 'densified' effectively now.  But  it's not going to solve our problems. It's DEFINITELY not going to lower housing costs.

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Greater density allows much lower costs of service delivery ...  IF... the infrastructure for it was put in place initially or can be upgraded.  If so - then you need fewer hospitals per person which means fewer specialized machines - it's easier to provide water and sewer (if it was put in place), it's easier for mass transit, it's much much better for the city from a property tax point of view because you have a hell of a lot more units paying property taxes, It's easier to do 'mixed' or the so called 15 minute communities.

BUT.  if the area wasn't set up for it - if the sewer system and road system etc wasn't built with that in mind ... it's a severe problem. 

And it's MORE money per sq foot to build tall. And there is the 'rat' phenomenon where people crammed into smaller areas can get a little more hostile. And things like protests (honk honk!) tend to affect a much larger number of people so those areas attract them.

There are other issues as well.

So there comes a point where the returns on increasing density no longer outweigh the disadvantages.  It's wise to build out new areas in teh burbs etc. with much higher future density in mind.  And to look at which areas can be 'densified' effectively now.  But  it's not going to solve our problems. It's DEFINITELY not going to lower housing costs.

Believe me, I pushed for higher densities at the political level and made those arguments for new urbanism. The results are not playing out as I thought, however, as the character and desirability of medium density residential neighborhoods is being damaged without giving us the promised efficiencies of moving people more cheaply and quickly.  Instead, our neighborhoods are more crowded and congested, our housing unit space has shrunk, and our quality of life has declined.  Vertical sprawl is now as problematic as urban sprawl.  I don’t think the answer is to develop more of the Greenbelt in Ontario, and I support densification of GO stations and at transit hubs. but really the provinces and feds should be supporting the development of smaller cities/towns and establishment of new cities/towns well away from major centres like Toronto and Vancouver at this point.  Those cities will remain development magnets.  In Ontario the government should focus on developing parts of Lake Erie/Southwestern Ontario and add the necessary rail and infrastructure.  Why?  Because land is abundant and real estate is less than a third of the cost than in Toronto.  The same applies to to the north and eastern Lake Ontario. We really risk spoiling our established neighborhoods by casting them in shadows and injecting too many people into too small an area.  We don’t need more St. Jamestowns or Jane and Finches, but we’re creating them as we speak.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:32 PM, CdnFox said:

So are you admitting you can't answer the question about why density is a big part of the solution? LOL -  Spanky!  C'mon bud, step it up

As to Canada there are quite a number of unique issues.  First - for the last 10 years we've been slowing down building in relation to population growth significantly - and it wasn't great before that. This is due to a number of factors but what it boils down to is that the way the system is designed at this point, it seriously punishes developers from building enough homes in advance of need. Construction will ALWAYS trail need . That's not the way it is in most countries.

And that creates problem number 2 - we're SEVERELY behind in the number of homes we need. While other countries kept up we are at the bottom of the list in homes to population, so at this point just to get back to where others are and get on solid footing we need about 1 million MORE homes than we usually build AND we need to increase the number of homes we build.

The liberals knew this was an issue in 2015 - they ran on fixing it, it was part of their platform.  It's been noted that since 2016 we've  built 100 thousand homes per year FEWER than the MINIMUM amount needed to keep the problem from getting worse.

We also have challenges that are unique to canada for municiple provincial federal roles that must be addressed.

But the number one issue is that in the last half decade immigration has gone bonkers and is about to go mega-bonkers.  Canada has always had  a world leading immigration rate but trueau is sending that skyward.

So we- unlike most others - were not building enough homes already.  NOW we're radically increasing the number of homes we need.  That is a uniquely Canadian issue.

There are other unique to canada factors but that should start you off.

 

I'm very disappointed you chickened out over defending the density thing 

Hey, this is your thread. It’s up to you to keep it going and provide resilient data for it. I’m happy to emphasize I’ve no expertise here. Thus I’d be grateful for some references for what you are saying there, first to show what Canada is doing on housing units (which shouldn’t be hard), but secondly to demonstrate this ‘uniqueness’ angle. Let’s first talk about the number of housing units built in Canada by year since 2000 as a percentage of total housing stock. Do you think Canada is the only country with a recent problem housing people in the face of immigration and a rising total population? 

And on density of units in large cities, what are you claiming exactly? 

Edited August 18, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Hey, this is your thread. It’s up to you to keep it going and provide resilient data for it.

It was your claim.  YOU were the one who said that density is key - it is up to YOU to explain why. It is not up to me to defend your position. I clearly explained why it wasn't - it's up to you to defend your claim that it was.

As to the information - You're turning into yet another disgusting left wing !diot who prefers dishonestly to discussion. What a shame. I mean the first question is answered in the article i posted for this thread. It's got lots of info on how we're doing for housing.  But you're going to pretend i didn't post anything about how we're doing for housing and ask i look it up for you. Even tho its what the thread is about. Couldn't even wait till a new thread to pretend i hadn't posted the info.

And then i've given you very specific information about what is 'unique'  - more than enough for you to do your own research in 5 seconds.  But rather than discuss the points you're going to demand i do more research for you.  And then more and more and more - we know how this game works.  You're as bad as @Moonbox,  all you left wing degenerates do the same thing and refuse to actually address the issues at hand.  Sealioning is all you care about.

Is there not a single honest left winger anymore? Are you ALL like this now?  Not one of  you cares about discussing the issues honestly?  Man, that's pathetic.

[Moonbox]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You're as bad as @Moonbox,  all you left wing degenerates do the same thing and refuse to actually address the issues at hand.  Sealioning is all you care about.

Is there not a single honest left winger anymore? Are you ALL like this now?  Not one of  you cares about discussing the issues honestly?  Man, that's pathetic.

Why are you pinging me in here?  

The sealioning is a nice catch-all defense for you now though, isn't it?  It's kind of like "no that's MSM fake news".  Any time you're challenged on your made-up bullshit, "Something something Sealioning".  ?

[I am Groot]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:39 PM, ExFlyer said:

Here in Ottawa, building sites are nearly closed. Help wanted signs everywhere. Every builder has help wanted signs for all trades. Even the reno market is looking for workers.

Yes, mortgage rates are an issue but, re-sale homes are flying off the market. Up from last year. They have the same mortgage issues, but are selling.

I am not sure that interest rates are the problem for builders or new home buyers.

I live in a newish development in Ottawa. The first some years after I moved in there were houses going up everywhere around me. But There hasn't been a new foundation dug the last year or two, even though there are empty lots still available on the next street over. Interest rates are a problem for both home builders and home buyers. The former have to pay much higher rates than normal since such companies tend to go out of business fairly frequently, and the size of the mortgage the latter have to pay has increased considerably since I bought my place. Not only has the price of houses around here nearly doubled in the seven or eight years since I've been here but you've got interest rates on top of that.I bought my place for just under $500k and now new houses the same or smaller are being sold for $1m and up.

[I am Groot]

14 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

And on density of units in large cities, what are you claiming exactly? 

What do you think of the population estimates for the Liberal's Century Initiative?

This includes increasing the population of megaregions. It suggests a population increase Greater Toronto Area from 8.8 to 33.5 million, the Greater Montreal region from 4.4 to 12.2 million, the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor from 2.8 to 15.5 million, the Greater Vancouver region from 3.3 to 11.9 million, the National Capital Region from 1.4 to 4.8 million, the Southwestern Ontario region from 1.2 to 2 million, and the Winnipeg Metropolitan Region from 800,000 to 1.7 million.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative#:~:text=It suggests a population increase Greater Toronto Area,Winnipeg Metropolitan Region from 800%2C000 to 1.7 million.

Edited August 18, 2023 by I am Groot

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Why are you pinging me in here?  

 

Why not?  If i have to listen to lefties endlessly sealioning then so should you And it does highligh to you how prevelant it is.

 

Quote

The sealioning is a nice catch-all defense for you now though, isn't it?  ISM fake news".  Any time you're challenged on your made-up bullshit, "Something something Sealioning".  ?

It's more of a "Catch -one".   It catches people sealioning.  Which is one of your favorite tactics.  Just like above - avoid the issue at all cost and demand proof be posted and reposted and reposted or demand that more and more proof be provided.  If that fails, try to discredit the proof by blaming the source or claiming it doesnt' say what it obviously says.

Do you notice the right doesn't do this? We rarely ask for cites (you almost never provide any) and we look things  up on our own and debate the issues.

I thought maybe YOU could answer why the left is so fond of this low brow and scummy debate technique? You're so fond of it after all.

[ExFlyer]

33 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

What do you think of the population estimates for the Liberal's Century Initiative?

This includes increasing the population of megaregions. It suggests a population increase Greater Toronto Area from 8.8 to 33.5 million, the Greater Montreal region from 4.4 to 12.2 million, the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor from 2.8 to 15.5 million, the Greater Vancouver region from 3.3 to 11.9 million, the National Capital Region from 1.4 to 4.8 million, the Southwestern Ontario region from 1.2 to 2 million, and the Winnipeg Metropolitan Region from 800,000 to 1.7 million.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Initiative#:~:text=It suggests a population increase Greater Toronto Area,Winnipeg Metropolitan Region from 800%2C000 to 1.7 million.

Liberal???

The Century Initiative is "We are a diverse, non-partisan network of Canadians from the business, academic, and charitable sectors with a shared belief that, with the right approach to growth, we can enhance our economic strength and resilience at home, and our influence abroad. As a registered charity, our vision is a Canada that thinks and plans not just for today, but for future generations. Because prosperity takes planning."

https://www.centuryinitiative.ca/

"The Century Initiative was founded in late-2009 as the Laurier Project Foundation by Mark Wiseman and Dominic Barton, who was the head of McKinsey & Company at the time, along with other "prominent Canadians."  

From your own link. Long before the Liberals were in power. Maybe a Harper initiative?? LOLJust thought to clarify what it really is.

Not all things are Liberal party initiatives. Your link even identifies that it is not a Liberal thing. LOL

[Moonbox]

37 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It's more of a "Catch -one".   It catches people sealioning.  Which is one of your favorite tactics. 

Just like "Nonono MSM FAKE NEWS" is a catch-all for every conspiracy donkey confronted with facts they don't like, compulsive bullshitters like you can do the same when you're asked for evidence you can't provide for the claims you've pulled out of your ass.  

It's only an exercise in self-delusion, but you don't have the self-awareness to know any better.  ?

Edited August 18, 2023 by Moonbox

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Just like "Nonono MSM FAKE NEWS" is a catch-all for every conspiracy donkey confronted with facts they don't like, compulsive bullshitters like you can do the same when you're asked for evidence you can't provide for the claims you've pulled out of your ass.  

It's only an exercise in self-delusion, but you don't have the self-awareness to know any better.  ?

So you can't refute the points and the best you can do is create a  "fake -fake news" comparison LOLOL

well i guess that's as good a way as any to admit i was correct and you've got nothing     Try throwing even more buzz words in your 'non defense defense'  next time, maybe that will make it sound less stupid  

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Liberal??? Not all things are Liberal party initiatives. Your link even identifies that it is not a Liberal thing. LOL

It has been adopted by Trudeau and his party and is now firmly government policy. They simply haven't admitted it. But even the Century Initiative says in their latest spiel that Canada is now firmly on the path and on schedule to achieve their goal. So yes, this Liberal Party goal. 

What do you think of a GTA of 33 million people? Gonna have to completely eliminate the greenbelts for that. All of them.

Edited August 18, 2023 by I am Groot

[ExFlyer]

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

It has been adopted by Trudeau and his party and is now firmly government policy. They simply haven't admitted it. But even the Century Initiative says in their latest spiel that Canada is now firmly on the path and on schedule to achieve their goal. So yes, this Liberal Party goal. 

What do you think of a GTA of 33 million people? Gonna have to completely eliminate the greenbelts for that. All of them.

What policy? What evidence? 

I think you are faking the news.

[Moonbox]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So you can't refute the points and the best you can do is create a  "fake -fake news" comparison LOLOL

What point am I supposed to be refuting?  You make stuff up, then when you are asked to support it, you complain and refuse to.  Saying "sealion" doesn't cause your missing evidence/sources to materialize.  You still actually have to post them.  ?

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

What point am I supposed to be refuting?

AHhh the classic "Pretend to not even know what we're talking about rather than deal with what we're talking about' strategy.  Another classic.

Are you really saying you're too slow to be able to understand what was written and figure out the point? Is that really how thick you are? please - let me know.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

AHhh the classic "Pretend to not even know what we're talking about rather than deal with what we're talking about' strategy.  Another classic.

Are you really saying you're too slow to be able to understand what was written and figure out the point? Is that really how thick you are? please - let me know.

It's a pretty short thread, and we weren't even discussing anything until yet another poster commented on your unwillingness/inability to provide evidence for your claims.  You felt that worthy of pinging me into the debate, because how dare people ask you to actually support your bullshitting with hard data...that's SEaLiOnIng,

Nobody derails there own threads like you.  ?

[CdnFox]

8 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It's a pretty short thread, and we weren't even discussing anything until yet another poster commented on your unwillingness/inability to provide evidence for your claims.  You felt that worthy of pinging me into the debate, because how dare people ask you to actually support your bullshitting with hard data...that's SEaLiOnIng,

Nobody derails there own threads like you.  ?

Actually another poster made no such claim.  But it's perfect that you'd lie about it and prove my point

And yes it is a short thread - yet somehow you can't possibly figure out what we're talking about 

I guess that's as good a way of saying "i'm ashamed of my behavior and i want to avoid talking aobut it" as any  

[Moonbox]

35 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Actually another poster made no such claim.  But it's perfect that you'd lie about it and prove my point

The other poster asked for data, and you pinged me and started carrying on about sealioning.  

You're pretty dumb.  

[Zeitgeist]

18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

It has been adopted by Trudeau and his party and is now firmly government policy. They simply haven't admitted it. But even the Century Initiative says in their latest spiel that Canada is now firmly on the path and on schedule to achieve their goal. So yes, this Liberal Party goal. 

What do you think of a GTA of 33 million people? Gonna have to completely eliminate the greenbelts for that. All of them.

Yeah what’s all this for?  Who benefits?  Certainly not Canadians.  Already Toronto is an overcrowded predominantly Indian city and Vancouver is an overcrowded predominately Chinese city. I only mention the ethnicity because I don’t think that the Chinese who came here to leave China simply wanted to recreate Chinese living conditions here.  Do the Indian immigrants want to recreate Calcutta in Toronto?  It’s untenable. Rapid immigration raises home prices, over-stretches public services and transportation infrastructure, creates social divisions as cultures struggle to deal with such rapid change, and the quality of life in Canada declines. Oh, and our greenhouse gases skyrocket, of course.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[I am Groot]

18 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

What policy? What evidence? 

I think you are faking the news.

And you are ignoring it.

The people at the Century Initiative are influential Liberals. The Liberal party floated trial balloons about this shortly after Trudeau's election and they were shot down by an overwhelmingly negative public reaction. So Trudeau simply decided to implement the wishes of the Century Initiative without admitting it. But it's clear that's what they're doing. Nothing else explains his insistence on continuing increases to immigration despite all the obvious problems that's causing.

Here is a report of that time.

OTTAWA – Imagine Canada with a population of 100 million — roughly triple its current size.

For two of the most prominent voices inside the Trudeau government’s influential council of economic advisers, it’s much more than a passing fancy.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3020783/influential-liberal-advisers-want-canadian-population-to-triple-by-2100/

And according to the Century Initiative, we're well on our way to achieving their goals.

The chief executive of the Century Initiative says Canada “has reached the point of no return” when it comes to welcoming more immigrants, as its modelling shows Canada is on track to more than double its population to at least 100 million by the turn of the century.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-immigration-public-opinion/

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

The other poster asked for data,

Exactly - but what you claimed is "another poster commented on your unwillingness/inability to provide evidence"  

SO you lied.  Again.  Because that's all you've got    Couldn't even help yourself - went straight to lies and now you've been forced to admit it   

And at the end of the day - that's what i wanted to prove when i called you. Thanks for helping out  

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The people at the Century Initiative are influential Liberals. The Liberal party floated trial balloons about this shortly after Trudeau's election and they were shot down by an overwhelmingly negative public reaction. So Trudeau simply decided to implement the wishes of the Century Initiative without admitting it.

I'm pretty sure they admitted it now.  THe Century group is headed by a friend of his.  I don't know that i'd say it's  a  "Liberal" org but it's definitely a left wing org and the libs are very friendly with them , and i don't think they're hiding that's the plan anymore.

[ExFlyer]

36 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

And you are ignoring it.

The people at the Century Initiative are influential Liberals. The Liberal party floated trial balloons about this shortly after Trudeau's election and they were shot down by an overwhelmingly negative public reaction. So Trudeau simply decided to implement the wishes of the Century Initiative without admitting it. But it's clear that's what they're doing. Nothing else explains his insistence on continuing increases to immigration despite all the obvious problems that's causing.

Here is a report of that time.

OTTAWA – Imagine Canada with a population of 100 million — roughly triple its current size.

For two of the most prominent voices inside the Trudeau government’s influential council of economic advisers, it’s much more than a passing fancy.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3020783/influential-liberal-advisers-want-canadian-population-to-triple-by-2100/

And according to the Century Initiative, we're well on our way to achieving their goals.

The chief executive of the Century Initiative says Canada “has reached the point of no return” when it comes to welcoming more immigrants, as its modelling shows Canada is on track to more than double its population to at least 100 million by the turn of the century.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-immigration-public-opinion/

I am not ignoring anything. Never heard of this.

All sounds like pie in the sky stuff.

Edited August 19, 2023 by ExFlyer

[CdnFox]

19 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I am not ignoring anything. Never heard of this.

All sounds like pie in the sky stuff.

Actually its a legit org and they've been around for a while.  It's not some sort of conspiracy nut group

https://www.centuryinitiative.ca/

THey're a left of center group that believes that historically large amounts of immigration will solve a number of canada's problems.  The boss and justin are buds, and he's got justin buying into it.  I don't think they've hidden that.

But - that leaves us discussing if very high immigration levels are really what canada needs right now.

[ExFlyer]

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Actually its a legit org and they've been around for a while.  It's not some sort of conspiracy nut group

https://www.centuryinitiative.ca/

THey're a left of center group that believes that historically large amounts of immigration will solve a number of canada's problems.  The boss and justin are buds, and he's got justin buying into it.  I don't think they've hidden that.

But - that leaves us discussing if very high immigration levels are really what canada needs right now.

Well, us Canadians are not making enough babies so, the only way to get workers and tax money is to import people