Ontario Teachers to go on Strike Again

[Moonbox]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Ok, so you think they are liars.  There are things written down that back up what actually happens.

I don't give even an ounce of credibility to their claims in aggregate, though there is certainly a few good apples in there that are doing something. The teachers I know roll their eyes at those claims, and they download their lessons and prep from various teaching websites. 

I'm giving anecdotal evidence here, so take it for nothing if you choose, but that's not really any more reliable than all of this grueling work the teachers are pretending they're doing over the summer.  Writing things down doesn't make them so, and nobody is following up or verifying it.  

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

. . . like extracurricular activities, and prep week, and working in the evening.

Again, this feels familiar and I don't think that I have much more to say, so I'll give you the last word.

Add up all of the extracurricular activity a teacher does in a year and let's see how much that accounts for compared to the average full-year 9-5 worker.  ?

Edited August 17, 2023 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

All of you who appear to be calling for a popular round table on what people deserve to make, apart from our modified market system, who do you say we start with investment bankers?

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. More of a legislative approach, I would think.  Although maybe they're going to try to use the notwithstanding clause.

2. The Chuds have abandoned him and the Greenbelt thing is pretty new, potentially big.

3. I have read this before.  Teachers work nights too, and in the summer for prep.   Again, these things are just being repeated again, which enforces my belief that this is more same old...

1. Back to work legislation?? Or what are you trying to say Michael?

2. Meh, Ford has done pretty good overall.

3. Well Michael, as I have mentioned before, I have teachers in the family and am surrounded by them as neighbours. You think they work nights...a bit bit then, they only work 9 to 3 during the day. They could stay till 5 and get that done which is what my daughter in law does. They do not work in the Summer to prep. Prep what Michael? If they are a new teacher or moved schools or districts, yes, it may take a little extra to prep but once the first is done, it is quite simple the same year in year out.

As for extra curricular, well, having coached in a high school, almost all practices and games are during school hours. There may be a few evenings but, in reality, working 9 to 3  and having a few evening hours to give is not a sacrifice. I bet you work evening and weekend occasionally and put on a 8 to 5 workday.

Yes Michael, it is the same old same old but, it is from the teachers union. In my time in Ontario, the teachers unions are the ones that keep on and on and on. Every contract is "about the kids" when in fact, as soon as the government caves and gives them money, they settle and it is all good.

Edited August 17, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Moonbox]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

All of you who appear to be calling for a popular round table on what people deserve to make, apart from our modified market system, who do you say we start with investment bankers?

It's a public service monopoly Michael.  If the Teacher's Union didn't exist, if there was proper performance standards and accountability, and if it wasn't near-impossible to get rid of an underperforming teacher barring gross negligence/improper conduct, these questions you're asking would have harder answers. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

58 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Back to work legislation?? Or what are you trying to say Michael?

2. Meh, Ford has done pretty good overall.

3. Well Michael, as I have mentioned before, I have teachers in the family and am surrounded by them as neighbours. You think they work nights...a bit bit then, they only work 9 to 3 during the day. They could stay till 5 and get that done which is what my daughter in law does. They do not work in the Summer to prep. Prep what Michael? If they are a new teacher or moved schools or districts, yes, it may take a little extra to prep but once the first is done, it is quite simple the same year in year out.

As for extra curricular, well, having coached in a high school, almost all practices and games are during school hours. There may be a few evenings but, in reality, working 9 to 3  and having a few evening hours to give is not a sacrifice. I bet you work evening and weekend occasionally and put on a 8 to 5 workday.

Yes Michael, it is the same old same old but, it is from the teachers union. In my time in Ontario, the teachers unions are the ones that keep on and on and on. Every contract is "about the kids" when in fact, as soon as the government caves and gives them money, they settle and it is all good.

As I said I wanted to give you the last word but it's hard when you ask me questions, from a discussion I was having with moonbox.

If they really want to change the structure of labor legislation, then they would introduce new labor legislation and it would cover all public unions including dougie's favorite the opp. 

And no, my opinion is that he's a disaster and a corrupt premier.

Okay your turn now.

[Michael Hardner]

49 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It's a public service monopoly Michael.  If the Teacher's Union didn't exist, if there was proper performance standards and accountability, and if it wasn't near-impossible to get rid of an underperforming teacher barring gross negligence/improper conduct, these questions you're asking would have harder answers. 

 

Sure but it's also an employment Monopoly.  These arrangements have existed in the public sphere for decades, because they largely work.  Other arrangements might work also, but be careful what you wish for.

Yes it's hard to get rid of bad teachers, bad cops, but it happens. I've never heard of a bad firefighter because what would that look like exactly?

Anyway as I said nothing new here, this isn't going to be a suit change in labor relations it'll be another settlement and Life Will Go on.  

I'll give you the last word now, unless you have anything new.

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

As I said I wanted to give you the last word but it's hard when you ask me questions, from a discussion I was having with moonbox.

If they really want to change the structure of labor legislation, then they would introduce new labor legislation and it would cover all public unions including dougie's favorite the opp. 

And no, my opinion is that he's a disaster and a corrupt premier.

Okay your turn now.

OK, my turn. You made curious statements. I had to ask. I ask because you make  vague statements and comments.

Michael

1. Who says they want to or need to change labour legislation? What is wrong with the labour legislation? What are you insinuating? What are you saying? The need to? Why?

2.What is dougies favourite the op? Or what does that mean?

3. So, you are conservative everywhere except when it comes to Ford? Rhetorical, no need to get into that. LOL

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

 

1. Who says they want to or need to change labour legislation? What is wrong with the labour legislation? What are you insinuating? What are you saying? The need to? Why?

2.What is dougies favourite the op? Or what does that mean?

3. So, you are conservative everywhere except when it comes to Ford? Rhetorical, no need to get into that. LOL

 

1. I didn't say they need to. I don't remember, but somewhere above someone was insinuating there was more to this than I thought. I said that if they wanted to make larger changes then the approach would likely be different, that's all.

2. Doug, a former criminal, likes to be friendly with the police.

People are calling OPP inaction on the Greenbelt scandal and the convoy suspicious.  The Globe called him out for the commissioner appointment being political.

And this... Borrowing the opp plane to go to Ford fest?

https://www.blogto.com/city/2023/08/people-ontario-furious-doug-ford-private-plane-ride-opp/

The Fords have been criminal and corrupt since forever.

That's how I feel about it, but Doug's OPP game plan is for another thread.  

3. I don't support corruption, I'm not a loyalist. Speaking of which, Doug recently said he still supports Trump... So how much conservative honor do you think he has?

Threadrift now. Anything else to talk about on the topic?

 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:29 AM, Boges said:

Spoken like someone with adult children. 

I think using the education of children as contract leverage is extremely unethical.

For the teachers who earn around or above 100k they shouldn't be given raises.  People need healthcare and teachers are making 100k+ with fantastic pensions and summers, Christmas break, March break off.  And a lot of them illegally collect unemployment during the summers because they're supposed to be actively looking for work, not sitting at home enjoy their patio.

There's no lack of people with teaching degrees out there, there's no reason they should be making over 75k, unless someone has some kind of rare teachable they use.  The Liberal gov spoiled them.

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

All of you who appear to be calling for a popular round table on what people deserve to make, apart from our modified market system, who do you say we start with investment bankers?

Cops, firefighters, investment bankers, Doug Ford being corrupt etc.  This is all whataboutism.  We are talking teacher salaries.  They obviously make too much.  Usually the ones who disagree are the ones who are financially benefitting from this, ie: teachers, their spouses/families.  Not saying this applies to you, but doesn't change the argument.

Ontario has serious fiscal budget issues.  Teachers making 100k+ is simply unethical while the healthcare system rots and there's a mental health crisis.  Not to mention hydro costs.  Teachers will whine if they don't get their raises, this is natural, they're looking out for their own financial interests, and hide behind "we're doing it for the kids".  Most teachers wouldn't strike and lose wages "for the kids".  They are greedy and spoiled.  If you use the education of children as leverage to get raises on top of 6-figure salaries, amazing vacation time, and fantastic pensions, you're ethically bankrupt and the public should not support you.  The ON gov does lots of fishy stuff, but is not the bad guy here.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I didn't say they need to. I don't remember, but somewhere above someone was insinuating there was more to this than I thought. I said that if they wanted to make larger changes then the approach would likely be different, that's all.

2. Doug, a former criminal, likes to be friendly with the police.

People are calling OPP inaction on the Greenbelt scandal and the convoy suspicious.  The Globe called him out for the commissioner appointment being political.

And this... Borrowing the opp plane to go to Ford fest?

https://www.blogto.com/city/2023/08/people-ontario-furious-doug-ford-private-plane-ride-opp/

The Fords have been criminal and corrupt since forever.

That's how I feel about it, but Doug's OPP game plan is for another thread.  

3. I don't support corruption, I'm not a loyalist. Speaking of which, Doug recently said he still supports Trump... So how much conservative honor do you think he has?

Threadrift now. Anything else to talk about on the topic?

 

Well, it is you that blew the topic away just now. LOL

I get you don't like Ford but being friendly with the police is not a crime and in fact, a good thing. Getting a ride in an Ontario owned aircraft is not unusual for a Premier of the Province.

OPP inaction of the greenbelt scandal and convoy??  Greenbelt issue is not an OPP investigation. Convoy? The trucker debacle of several years ago? You have issue with Ford over that? What is the issue?

Ford said he supports Trump? When? Where?

So yes, you slid us off topic

[Moonlight Graham]

If cops and firefighters went on strike and used the education of everyone's children as leverage to get more salary, and they had summers and Xmas and March breaks off and amazing pensions the public would be rightly outraged.

Teachers closer to the top of the scale make way too much.  And then the pensions are based on your highest pay years LOL.  Healthcare has been eroding for decades and is in crisis.  Public mental health access in the province is so bad it is a human rights issue.  Longterm care homes have issues, and need to hire better and more help with more oversight.  Hydro bills are out the ying-yang.  I'm not crying for teachers, they're doing better than the vast majority of workers in the province.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Moonlight Graham

[I am Groot]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:03 AM, ExFlyer said:

Lemme see, how many teachers solve crime or put themselves in danger? Or, how many teachers put out fires and save people and property? How many cops and firefighter have nice indoor jobs year round? And both cops and firefighters work more than 170 days per year.

All of them are among the best paid people in their professions in the world. Few firefighters, cops or teachers make as much as Ontario teachers do in Europe, none in Asia, and only a few small areas of the US with very liberal governments like San Fransisco or Seattle pay as much as we do for all our public sector workers.

On 8/16/2023 at 10:03 AM, ExFlyer said:

Lastly, like the saying goes, "The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else" and who get less and where do you want to cut?

Which is why I'm not happy at how generously (cowardly) successive governments at all levels have been to public sector workers.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Doug, a former criminal, likes to be friendly with the police.

When was he convicted and of what crime?

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

People are calling OPP inaction on the Greenbelt scandal and the convoy suspicious.  The Globe called him out for the commissioner appointment being political.

Most of the appointments made by every government at all levels are political. So what? No one has suggested Ford or his minister got any quid pro quo from the developers so there's nothing there. And anyway, the Greenbelt has to go. If we're going to more than double our population the way Trudeau is insisting we'll need that land. All of it.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

The teachers want raises.  How about giving nurses extra pay so it's worth it for them to go back to work and actually save lives and lower wait times etc.  How about hiring more psychiatrists so people with mental health problems can get much needed help and not go on wait lists for 6-8 months, which i'm not exaggerating, specially during these difficult times.

They just went on strike, the kids then missed more school during COVID and had that crummy online education and social isolation.  Teachers:  If emergency rooms are closing due to nurse shortages you STFU and take the L on this one, it's not all about you and your money.  Children's education and social development, healthcare, longterm care homes etc are much more important than your fatter bank accounts right now.

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

And no, my opinion is that he's a disaster and a corrupt premier.

A disaster? Fifteen years of the Liberals was a disaster. I don't like Ford and don't think he's all that good but he's still far and away above what we had before him.

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  This is all whataboutism.  We are talking teacher salaries.

2.  They obviously make too much.

3. Ontario has serious fiscal budget issues. 

4. Teachers making 100k+ is simply unethical while the healthcare system rots and there's a mental health crisis.   

1. Yes, thread drift as I said.

2. Why not cops who make more, with less training?  And don't say it's danger pay that's not true.  

3. 4. Running a surplus.

-

I don't have anything to say to people who just single out teachers and say they make too much.  You are welcome to your opinion.  For sure it factors into the slow decline of benefits and raises that governments negotiate, if that helps.

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Ford said he supports Trump? When? Where?

 

This is from two days ago.

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yes, thread drift as I said.

2. Why not cops who make more, with less training?  And don't say it's danger pay that's not true.  

3. 4. Running a surplus.

-

I don't have anything to say to people who just single out teachers and say they make too much.  You are welcome to your opinion.  For sure it factors into the slow decline of benefits and raises that governments negotiate, if that helps.

 

 

Michael they are talking up striking.  For more pay.  And using the education of children as leverage.  "But what about the OPP?!" is not a reason to think teachers don't make too much in a thread discussing a possible teachers strike.

If you're ok with them screwing over kids for more raises given what they make that reflects on your ethics.  If any teacher is willing to screw over kids for more raises that reflects on their ethics also.  Arguments about Doug Ford being corrupt are true, no different than teachers sacrificing the education of children for money.  If they want a decent wage sure, if they want beyond 6 figures it's just greed.

ON is in terrible debt.  Because the corrupt Liberals gave teachers what they wanted, plus who knows what other employees also (maybe OPP?), screwed up hydro due to corruption, etc.

And being a cop is a more dangerous job yes.  Teachers don't wear ballistics vests or carry guns or go on leave for PTSD because they had to shoot someone coming at them with a knife.

Now please, ignore all of this and carry on....

[ExFlyer]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

This is from two days ago.

 

 

Sorry Michael. Whatever you linked did not show up. Anything else you have to show.

You are claiming topic drift. It was actually you that wen t in that direction. We are following your lead

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. Michael they are talking up striking.  For more pay.  And using the education of children as leverage. 

2. "But what about the OPP?!" is not a reason to think teachers don't make too much in a thread discussing a possible teachers strike.

 

1. Already addressed above.

2. People who cite reasons that apply across the public service, like overall costs, should explain why they don't think that other groups need the same approach.  Like if you say you want to get rid of unions, why not the police union?

-- -- --

I haven't ignored anything.  You have, though, by repeating points I have made and wasting my time.

If you don't have anything new to add, and I'm just going to repeat dislike of teachers in different forms then please don't waste my time thanks.

 

30 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Sorry Michael. Whatever you linked did not show up. Anything else you have to show.

You are claiming topic drift. It was actually you that wen t in that direction. We are following your lead

Looks like it's up again, try now.

Again Premier Doug's fawning over Trump is probably better for another thread. But do tell me if you have trouble seeing the link.

[Michael Hardner]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Already addressed above.

2. People who cite reasons that apply across the public service, like overall costs, should explain why they don't think that other groups need the same approach.  Like if you say you want to get rid of unions, why not the police union?

-- -- --

I haven't ignored anything.  You have, though, by repeating points I have made and wasting my time.

If you don't have anything new to add, and I'm just going to repeat dislike of teachers in different forms then please don't waste my time thanks.

 

Looks like it's up again, try now.

Again Premier Doug's fawning over Trump is probably better for another thread. But do tell me if you have trouble seeing the link.

Ok I have to retract my claim sorry, in that the journalist clarified that this is actually an old interview.  Sorry.

[ExFlyer]

42 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Already addressed above.

2. People who cite reasons that apply across the public service, like overall costs, should explain why they don't think that other groups need the same approach.  Like if you say you want to get rid of unions, why not the police union?

-- -- --

I haven't ignored anything.  You have, though, by repeating points I have made and wasting my time.

If you don't have anything new to add, and I'm just going to repeat dislike of teachers in different forms then please don't waste my time thanks.

 

Looks like it's up again, try now.

Again Premier Doug's fawning over Trump is probably better for another thread. But do tell me if you have trouble seeing the link.

Michael, I am not sure who resurrected that clip but it was certainly not a recent clip. May have come from pre election  in 2016. That is a young Ford in that clip. Lots of people were on the Trump bandwagon before his election.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Michael, I am not sure who resurrected that clip but it was certainly not a recent clip. 

Already retracted.  The journalist in question framed it with a commentary about Georgia.  Clarified after it was reposted.