Dirty Doug’s Den of Deplorable Developer Deals

[BeaverFever]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I concede to being a NIMBY

I don't want my greenbelt paved over with suburban wasteland subdivisions

but the cost of living is so high in relation to wages

that there is an entire generation being forced to live with their parents into their thirties now

and that generation is demanding that the governments do something about it

and when government interferes with the free market,

that is what allows the market to be captured by entrenched interests

so I don't see an alternative no matter which party I vote for

and since the voters seem to view government intervening in the housing market as a necessity

I don't think Doug Ford will be punished by the electorate for caving into their demands

But the AG makes clear his housing strategy had nothing to do with developing Greenbelt land. They had already identified and confirmed the land needed for housing development BEFORE they started doing these greenbelt deals  

 

This greenbelt land grab was totally outside of and separate from his housing strategy. His buddies bought the greenbelt land cheap because development was restricted, far less than what developable land would cost. Now that Doug has removed it from the greenbelt its far more valuable. That’s the scam.
 

As the AG said there’s not even any evidence that these developers will develop the land in the foreseeable future. I wonder how many will simply flip the property and cash in 

[ExFlyer]

16 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Not true at all

 

Not true. Read the report. 
 

This is not true either 

 

 

I am a humanist and not an environmentalist. People over plants.

Just because there are plants where there are people does not mean we stop development and building homes for those in need. Our needs are more important.

You want plants, move up north, lots that no one wants.

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

But the AG makes clear his housing strategy had nothing to do with developing Greenbelt land. They had already identified and confirmed the land needed for housing development BEFORE they started doing these greenbelt deals  

 

This greenbelt land grab was totally outside of and separate from his housing strategy. His buddies bought the greenbelt land cheap because development was restricted, far less than what developable land would cost. Now that Doug has removed it from the greenbelt its far more valuable. That’s the scam.
 

As the AG said there’s not even any evidence that these developers will develop the land in the foreseeable future. I wonder how many will simply flip the property and cash in 

you're preaching to the choir

I do not support the "pave the Greenbelt to make housing cheaper" rubric

 it is indeed a rubric for developers to make out like bandits at the taxpayers expense, obvious from the start

but I don't see an alternative

as all governments in Canada are captured by entrenched interests, no matter which party is in power

[BeaverFever]

32 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I am a humanist and not an environmentalist. People over plants.

Just because there are plants where there are people does not mean we stop development and building homes for those in need. Our needs are more important.

You want plants, move up north, lots that no one wants.

1) As a humanist, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the importance of the natural environment to the quality of human life.  For carbon capture, climate control, flood control, pest control and so on  It’s an extensive list

2) Furthermore I think you are wrong to completely devalue non-human life. Like most people I believe nature has intrinsic value beyond whatever convenience or financial gain it offers humans. 
 

3) You continue to falsely suggest that developing the greenbelt is needed, which again the AG demonstrated is not the case. 

[BeaverFever]

The greenbelt has intrinsic value

 

 

[ExFlyer]

5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

1) As a humanist, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the importance of the natural environment to the quality of human life.  For carbon capture, climate control, flood control, pest control and so on  It’s an extensive list

2) Furthermore I think you are wrong to completely devalue non-human life. Like most people I believe nature has intrinsic value beyond whatever convenience or financial gain it offers humans. 
 

3) You continue to falsely suggest that developing the greenbelt is needed, which again the AG demonstrated is not the case. 

1. Nope. As I said, people over plants. Period.

2. How do you come to the conclusion I "devalue non-human life"?  The law of nature is the strong survive.

3. In this case, in the 2 small areas that the greenbelt is losing land, it is needed.

I do not need to agree with you and certainly do not need to agree with me. My point is people over plants.

What you do not speak about is while 3000 acres at 15 locations out of 2,000,00  that will be for housing, is that over 9000 acres is being added to the greenbelt.

 

[BeaverFever]

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Nope. As I said, people over plants. Period.

2. How do you come to the conclusion I "devalue non-human life"?  The law of nature is the strong survive.

3. In this case, in the 2 small areas that the greenbelt is losing land, it is needed.

I do not need to agree with you and certainly do not need to agree with me. My point is people over plants.

What you do not speak about is while 3000 acres at 15 locations out of 2,000,00  that will be for housing, is that over 9000 acres is being added to the greenbelt.

 

1. I stand by my original assertion. Repeating an empty slogan does not demonstrate  of understanding the importance of the natural environment to the quality of human life.

 

 

2.  Your own words show you see no value in mon-human life. Your “strong survive” comment is another meaningless slogan lacking substance. Surely you are suggesting we are meant to destroy anything that is weaker than us simply because we can?  We are not in competition with the environment. 
 

3. As point of fact the amount of land removed was 7400 acres. Much od the land added to the greenbelt was not as ecologically important and was either already protected under other statutes or didn’t need protection because it was undevelopable for other reasons.  
 

And as a humanist don’t you care about the active farmland destroyed?  As reported:  “76 per cent of the land removed from the Greenbelt was being used for farming in 2022, and 83 per cent of the land removed is classified as "prime agricultural land" — the highest quality farmland in the province.”

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

1. I stand by my original assertion. Repeating an empty slogan does not demonstrate  of understanding the importance of the natural environment to the quality of human life.

agreed

it's not actually conservatives who are demanding this

we are the NIMBY's who own the properties on the edge of the woods

nobody loves the greenbelt more than we who live here

it's big government interventionist Millennials from the cities who are demanding this

but that is the deciding vote now, so all governments are forced to pander to it

[Dougie93]

46 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The greenbelt has intrinsic value

it's the greatest treasure of all

what's the point of being wealthy and buying your dream property in nature's paradise

if the government can just come in and pave into a suburban wasteland ?

my prized possessions are my trees

I can repair my house, but if I lose a tree, it's gone for the rest of my life, it's irreplaceable in effect

[ExFlyer]

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

1. I stand by my original assertion. Repeating an empty slogan does not demonstrate  of understanding the importance of the natural environment to the quality of human life.

 

 

2.  Your own words show you see no value in mon-human life. Your “strong survive” comment is another meaningless slogan lacking substance. Surely you are suggesting we are meant to destroy anything that is weaker than us simply because we can?  We are not in competition with the environment. 
 

3. As point of fact the amount of land removed was 7400 acres. Much od the land added to the greenbelt was not as ecologically important and was either already protected under other statutes or didn’t need protection because it was undevelopable for other reasons.  
 

And as a humanist don’t you care about the active farmland destroyed?  As reported:  “76 per cent of the land removed from the Greenbelt was being used for farming in 2022, and 83 per cent of the land removed is classified as "prime agricultural land" — the highest quality farmland in the province.”

Like I said, you don't have to agree with me and I certainly do not have to agree with you.

I vote housing over trees any day.

Edited August 13, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Dougie93]

21 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

And as a humanist don’t you care about the active farmland destroyed?  As reported:  “76 per cent of the land removed from the Greenbelt was being used for farming in 2022, and 83 per cent of the land removed is classified as "prime agricultural land" — the highest quality farmland in the province.”

another of our greatest treasures

Ontario local produce from the farms

Ontario beef is the best beef

T-bone steaks grilled to perfection on the deck with a view of the greenbelt

literal paradise

[Dougie93]

26 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Your “strong survive” comment is another meaningless slogan lacking substance.

it's actually the ideology of the National Socialists

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I am a realist that has a desire to deal with things today. Not philosophically but realistically.

You are trying to deal with things unrealistically and philosophically if you believe you're in possession of everything you need to know and as you just said, The Auditor said a lot but proved nothing.

The fact that even an Auditor General is unable to tell shit from Shinola speaks to the utter dearth of transparency and accountability in our governance. It's phenomenal how willing people are to put up with this.

Is it partisanship or some sort of submissiveness that's innate to human nature when it comes to people in power?  

[ExFlyer]

52 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's actually the ideology of the National Socialists

Actually, it's the law of nature.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

Actually, it's the law of nature.

exactly what Adolf Hitler said : there is no good nor evil, everything is simply a Darwinian struggle

[ExFlyer]

27 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You are trying to deal with things unrealistically and philosophically if you believe you're in possession of everything you need to know and as you just said, The Auditor said a lot but proved nothing.

The fact that even an Auditor General is unable to tell shit from Shinola speaks to the utter dearth of transparency and accountability in our governance. It's phenomenal how willing people are to put up with this.

Is it partisanship or some sort of submissiveness that's innate to human nature when it comes to people in power?  

I guess that is my point.

The  AG investigated and regard;es of "transparency and accountability" she got down to the nitty gritty, hence the recommendations.

The auditor general made recommendations and the government accepted all but one (which may still be acted upon depending how much public pressure is exerted).

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

exactly what Adolf Hitler said : there is no good nor evil, everything is simply a Darwinian struggle

gawd dougie, get out of your basement and get with this century.

[ExFlyer]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

exactly what Adolf Hitler said : there is no good nor evil, everything is simply a Darwinian struggle

gawd dougie, get out of your basement and get with this century.

Hitler was gone over 70 years ago and only losers like you keep citing him. There have been bigger and badder leaders since then.

Edited August 13, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

gawd dougie, get out of your basement and get with this century.

Hitler was gone over 70 years ago and only losers like you keep citing him. There have been bigger and badder leaders since then.

none the less, absolute social Darwinian ideology is the trademark of the National Socialists

that is what defines them as being distinct from other totalitarian regimes

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The auditor general made recommendations and the government accepted all but one (which may still be acted upon depending how much public pressure is exerted).

And so nothing will move until this 'process' plays out.

The ironic thing is that despite the dearth I mentioned almost everything usually comes out in the end.  The price of sweeping it under the rug or skirting it is the lack of action in the meantime.

If the process, including lobbying, had been open to the public from the get go it's reasonable to expect we'd save a lot of time and money while still getting things done.

Pity the poor billionaires who are hard done by I suppose.

[ExFlyer]

38 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And so nothing will move until this 'process' plays out.

The ironic thing is that despite the dearth I mentioned almost everything usually comes out in the end.  The price of sweeping it under the rug or skirting it is the lack of action in the meantime.

If the process, including lobbying, had been open to the public from the get go it's reasonable to expect we'd save a lot of time and money while still getting things done.

Pity the poor billionaires who are hard done by I suppose.

Lobbying is not and will never be "transparent". That would defeat the purpose of it LOL

People take lobbying as an evil thing. Fact is, whenever you speak to anyone of any authority to assist you in any way, it is lobbying.  Whether you are a poor person asking your welfare office for more or a developer asking for land.  We all do it.

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by ExFlyer

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

it's big government interventionist Millennials from the cities who are demanding this

I don’t think that’s accurate. Doug Ford is hardly the messiah of big city millennials, he is their Great Satan in fact. Do you not remember he and his crack-smoking brother Rob’s war against downtown city dwellers?

 

The millennials who are being priced out of the city are a symptom, not the cause of the disease. There’s plenty of blame across all demographics Suburban homeowners who think they’re entitled to have their house value double every 5 years are just as liable, as are all the professional and amateur estate speculators who own multiple homes as “income properties”  for no other purpose except to resell at higher prices.  The government could implement measures in certain high priority areas like GTA to curb this activity, such as a vacant home tax and some sort of windfall tax on secondary properties sold within say the first 5 or 10 years of ownership. That would help ensure that the housing stock in those areas under pressure is primarily used to house people rather than generate businesses profits and support people’s side-hustles. 

[Dougie93]

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I don’t think that’s accurate. Doug Ford is hardly the messiah of big city millennials, he is their Great Satan in fact. Do you not remember he and his crack-smoking brother Rob’s war against downtown city dwellers?

but politics today is all about narrative

it's not about shifting votes, its only about talking to your base

the urbane Millennial's dominate the narrative, everything is about their crises

people my age are not in a housing crisis, we own the homes

but the Big Problem we are told by the media is a housing crisis for the Millenials

and Doug Ford's brand is that he is going to solve problems

so like all contemporary politicians, he is latching on to the narrative in order to gin up his base

plus, as you say; it's a great scam for his developer buddies also latching on to the narrative

Edited August 13, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

21 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

There’s plenty of blame across all demographics Suburban homeowners who think they’re entitled to have their house value double every 5 years are just as liable,

meh, I did expect my home would increase in value over a decade

but I was thinking like 50%

300% return was beyond my wildest expectations

and it has also stabilized now, it's basically been holding at tripled in price for awhile now

the real problem for Millennials is that I am not going to sell at any price

I can access the equity by other means, collateral in effect

[Dougie93]

27 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

 The government could implement measures in certain high priority areas like GTA to curb this activity, such as a vacant home tax and some sort of windfall tax on secondary properties sold within say the first 5 or 10 years of ownership. That would help ensure that the housing stock in those areas under pressure is primarily used to house people rather than generate businesses profits and support people’s side-hustles. 

 I don't think that sort of socialism is going to fly

governments which try that sort of thing will get hurled out of office

the bulk of the electorate is going to insist on being able to make money by doing business

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Whether you are a poor person asking your welfare office for more or a developer asking for land.  We all do it

Lumping these together to avoid taking action on transparency is the same thing as arguing against climate change action because it's always happening.