Canadian Defence News

[ExFlyer]

13 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

the group was the Airborne Regiment

because the chain of command had instituted capturing and torturing prisoners as an operating procedure

No, "the group" was his squad not the entire Airborne Regiment. I have flown members of the airborne around many many times and can unequivocally say they are the most disciplined troops I have ever been in contact with. Rogue elements caused their demise.

Incorrect again, the direction was to ""rough the prisoners up"" (as per your posts as opposed to what direction was actually given) and not anywhere near "torture and murder and take trophy photos".

You spend far too much time defending a horrific wrong and embarrassment to Canada, Canadian Regiments and Canadian soldiers. There is no defence for what they did.

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

what are the "sides" ?

Beaver mentioned the "enablers"

I simply pointed out the conclusions of the Somalia Inquiry

which was that the chain of command had made torturing the prisoners into a mission

Matchee didn't take upon himself to kidnap and torture Shidane Arone, he was ordered to do it

he would have had to defy the chain of command, on the ground in theatre,  to do otherwise

it is hard to imagine a JR defying the CO by refusing a mission, in the field on operations

in terms of his qualities as a soldier, he was ISCC qualified, so he must have been above average at least

The side that claims he is not responsible for his actions.

No, your claim of the order is incorrect. The regiment was ordered to "take prisoners and abuse " as per your take on it, not to "torture and murder and take trophy photos of the dead prisoner".

I did not see, read or hear of anyone disobeying a CO's order to perform a mission, only that "torture and murder and taking photographic evidence" was not an order, by anyone higher in the chain of command. His comrades in the criminal action took their punishment, he chose to try and end his life. Perhapos it was him that gave the order??

I do not know Army acronyms so do not know what ISSC is. A trade specific qualification can and is given to those that pass the requirements.

Also, I earlier mentioned promotion to Master Corporal, I amplify this knowing that a Master Corporal is an appointment, not a promotion.

Anyway, your attempt at defending or justifying is wrong. Back to topic of buying equipment for the Military. At least something is being done.

 

 

[BeaverFever]

National Defence to spend more than $1 billion on new operational HQ at Carling Campus site

It is expected the new facility will be occupied by 2034, but that is only an estimate. The project originally called for the new facility to be in operation by 2029.

Published Aug 01, 2023  •  Last updated 20 hours ago  •  3 minute read

 

A photo of the Department of National Defence Carling Campus taken Tuesday. DND will spend more than $1 billion on a new operational headquarters facility at the Carling campus site in the west end of Ottawa. Photo by Julie Oliver /Postmedia

National Defence will spend more than $1 billion on a new operational headquarters facility to be located at its Carling Campus site in west-end Ottawa.

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A design contract for the new building is expected to be awarded in late 2025, National Defence confirmed to this newspaper.

The project, intended to provide offices for 4,500 personnel, represents a major expansion of the Carling Campus headquarters at the intersection of Moodie Drive and Carling Avenue.

National Defence had originally looked at a site near Shirleys Bay for the new operational headquarters, which will be home for personnel from the special forces command, intelligence command, information management branch and the Canadian Joint Operations Command. Those commands are currently located in buildings across Ottawa.

But National Defence decided it made more sense to locate the staff at its Carling Campus location, which has the security and space needed.

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“The intent of the project will be to construct and retrofit facilities at Carling Campus to house all, or elements of (the commands),” National Defence spokesperson Jessica Lamirande said.

Now that the location has been chosen, Public Services and Procurement Canada will work with a consultant to examine the construction of a new building at the Carling Campus headquarters. “This will include identifying options for specific locations on the grounds,” Lamirande added.

The Carling Campus consists of about 28 hectares once owned by Nortel and 120 hectares leased from the National Capital Commission. The federal government spent more than $800 million to buy the former Nortel buildings in 2010 and to upgrade them for National Defence requirements.

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In making their original case to spend $800 million on the former Nortel complex, senior defence officials claimed there would be substantial savings in consolidating employees in the one location. In addition, taxpayers would save $750 million over the next 25 years as office rent would not have to be paid for numerous locations in the national capital region, government officials claimed. No mention was ever made of the need for another new building at the site.

 

DND’s Carling Campus consists of about 28 hectares once owned by Nortel and 120 hectares leased from the National Capital Commission. Photo by Julie Oliver/Postmedia

Lamirande pointed out that the $1.1-billion project cost for the new operational headquarters was only an estimate and “a more precise total project cost will be available once the construction contract has been awarded.”

The facility will have an estimated total gross floor area of more than 80,000 square metres, she noted.

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Once the specific location at the Carling Campus is determined for the new facility, options will be examined for different designs. “We expect to have a design contract awarded by late 2025/early 2026,” Lamirande said.

It is expected the new facility will be occupied by 2034, but that is only an estimate. The project originally called for the new facility to be in operation by 2029.

It will “deliver a modern operational facility with a view to integrating command, control, communications, and coordination and intelligence capabilities of multiple commands, along with essential operational support resources collocated, enabling both increased strategic and operational command and control as well as layered physical security,” Lamirande added.

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By the time the new operational headquarters is in use, more than 13,000 National Defence employees and Canadian Forces members will be working in Ottawa’s west end. Currently there are about 20,500 DND employees and Canadian Forces personnel in locations throughout Ottawa and Gatineau.

National Defence will continue to occupy its other headquarters in downtown Ottawa at 101 Colonel By Dr. until at least 2035.

Shortly after staff started moving to the Carling Campus headquarters in early 2017, there were numerous complaints about a lack of parking at the new location. But those complaints have largely dried up because of new rules allowing staff more flexibility to work from home, National Defence officials say.

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In its promotional material about the Carling Campus, National Defence has boasted about the first-class facilities established there. “The buildings themselves are unlike anything else in the Defence Facilities Portfolio and provide the Defence Team with a healthy and inviting work environment to work better together in a modern, collaborative work environment conducive to the challenging work of Defence. Natural light is abundant. Plants and water are prominent; both indoors and outdoors and there are many kilometres of nearby fitness trails.”
 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/national-defence-to-spend-more-than-1-billion-on-new-operational-hq-at-carling-campus-site

[Dougie93]

7 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The side that claims he is not responsible for his actions.

No, your claim of the order is incorrect. The regiment was ordered to "take prisoners and abuse " as per your take on it, not to "torture and murder and take trophy photos of the dead prisoner".

I did not see, read or hear of anyone disobeying a CO's order to perform a mission, only that "torture and murder and taking photographic evidence" was not an order, by anyone higher in the chain of command. His comrades in the criminal action took their punishment, he chose to try and end his life. Perhapos it was him that gave the order??

I do not know Army acronyms so do not know what ISSC is. A trade specific qualification can and is given to those that pass the requirements.

Also, I earlier mentioned promotion to Master Corporal, I amplify this knowing that a Master Corporal is an appointment, not a promotion.

Anyway, your attempt at defending or justifying is wrong. Back to topic of buying equipment for the Military. At least something is being done.

it's not about defending Matchee

there was systemic breakdown

which led to the Airborne Regiment being abandoned in the middle of the Somali desert with no way to support them

which incited the chain of command to start issuing misguided and in fact unlawful orders

which led to the breakdown of discipline in the ranks

which caused the Airborne Regiment to be disbanded

as part of a Decade of Darkness wherein the whole military was neglected

which is why the force was not prepared for the war in Afghanistan at the end of the decade

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

the direction was to ""rough the prisoners up""

which was a war crime in violation of national and international law and the laws of armed conflict

which incited the complete breakdown of discipline in the ranks when said direction was carried out

with catastrophic results, not just for the Airborne Regiment, but the entire military

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I do not know Army acronyms so do not know what ISSC is. A trade specific qualification can and is given to those that pass the requirements.

if you know so little about the Army that you don't even know what ISCC is, then you are not qualified to comment

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

National Defence to spend more than $1 billion on new operational HQ at Carling Campus site

It is expected the new facility will be occupied by 2034, but that is only an estimate. The project originally called for the new facility to be in operation by 2029.

Published Aug 01, 2023  •  Last updated 20 hours ago  •  3 minute read

A photo of the Department of National Defence Carling Campus taken Tuesday. DND will spend more than $1 billion on a new operational headquarters facility at the Carling campus site in the west end of Ottawa. Photo by Julie Oliver /Postmedia

National Defence will spend more than $1 billion on a new operational headquarters facility to be located at its Carling Campus site in west-end Ottawa.

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A design contract for the new building is expected to be awarded in late 2025, National Defence confirmed to this newspaper.

The project, intended to provide offices for 4,500 personnel, represents a major expansion of the Carling Campus headquarters at the intersection of Moodie Drive and Carling Avenue.

National Defence had originally looked at a site near Shirleys Bay for the new operational headquarters, which will be home for personnel from the special forces command, intelligence command, information management branch and the Canadian Joint Operations Command. Those commands are currently located in buildings across Ottawa.

But National Defence decided it made more sense to locate the staff at its Carling Campus location, which has the security and space needed.

Story continues below 

This advertisement has not loaded yet, but your article continues below. 

“The intent of the project will be to construct and retrofit facilities at Carling Campus to house all, or elements of (the commands),” National Defence spokesperson Jessica Lamirande said.

Now that the location has been chosen, Public Services and Procurement Canada will work with a consultant to examine the construction of a new building at the Carling Campus headquarters. “This will include identifying options for specific locations on the grounds,” Lamirande added.

The Carling Campus consists of about 28 hectares once owned by Nortel and 120 hectares leased from the National Capital Commission. The federal government spent more than $800 million to buy the former Nortel buildings in 2010 and to upgrade them for National Defence requirements.

Story continues below 

This advertisement has not loaded yet, but your article continues below. 

In making their original case to spend $800 million on the former Nortel complex, senior defence officials claimed there would be substantial savings in consolidating employees in the one location. In addition, taxpayers would save $750 million over the next 25 years as office rent would not have to be paid for numerous locations in the national capital region, government officials claimed. No mention was ever made of the need for another new building at the site.

 

DND’s Carling Campus consists of about 28 hectares once owned by Nortel and 120 hectares leased from the National Capital Commission. Photo by Julie Oliver/Postmedia

Lamirande pointed out that the $1.1-billion project cost for the new operational headquarters was only an estimate and “a more precise total project cost will be available once the construction contract has been awarded.”

The facility will have an estimated total gross floor area of more than 80,000 square metres, she noted.

Story continues below 

This advertisement has not loaded yet, but your article continues below. 

Once the specific location at the Carling Campus is determined for the new facility, options will be examined for different designs. “We expect to have a design contract awarded by late 2025/early 2026,” Lamirande said.

It is expected the new facility will be occupied by 2034, but that is only an estimate. The project originally called for the new facility to be in operation by 2029.

It will “deliver a modern operational facility with a view to integrating command, control, communications, and coordination and intelligence capabilities of multiple commands, along with essential operational support resources collocated, enabling both increased strategic and operational command and control as well as layered physical security,” Lamirande added.

Story continues below 

This advertisement has not loaded yet, but your article continues below. 

By the time the new operational headquarters is in use, more than 13,000 National Defence employees and Canadian Forces members will be working in Ottawa’s west end. Currently there are about 20,500 DND employees and Canadian Forces personnel in locations throughout Ottawa and Gatineau.

National Defence will continue to occupy its other headquarters in downtown Ottawa at 101 Colonel By Dr. until at least 2035.

Shortly after staff started moving to the Carling Campus headquarters in early 2017, there were numerous complaints about a lack of parking at the new location. But those complaints have largely dried up because of new rules allowing staff more flexibility to work from home, National Defence officials say.

Story continues below 

This advertisement has not loaded yet, but your article continues below. 

In its promotional material about the Carling Campus, National Defence has boasted about the first-class facilities established there. “The buildings themselves are unlike anything else in the Defence Facilities Portfolio and provide the Defence Team with a healthy and inviting work environment to work better together in a modern, collaborative work environment conducive to the challenging work of Defence. Natural light is abundant. Plants and water are prominent; both indoors and outdoors and there are many kilometres of nearby fitness trails.”
 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/national-defence-to-spend-more-than-1-billion-on-new-operational-hq-at-carling-campus-site

just another glaring example of how Canada wastes the bulk of the budget on overhead

already the military has vastly too many bases for such a tiny force

yet they go out and buy another base and start wasting billions on it

and not even an operational base, just another bloated staff headquarters

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Also, I earlier mentioned promotion to Master Corporal, I amplify this knowing that a Master Corporal is an appointment, not a promotion.

I've heard this assertion before but I can't find any evidence to back it up

Master Corporal is listed as a rank in the official rank structure

because in order to standardize with French

Canada switched from the British rank structure

which is Lance Corporal followed by Corporal

to the French Army rank structure which is Caporal followed by Caporal Chef

the English translation of Caporal Chef being Master Corporal

certainly there was no doubt that as a Master Corporal I outranked a Corporal

  I've made Corporals click their heels together for me many times

Master Corporal is also worn as a rank, two Chevrons with a Maple Leaf

as opposed to the appointment of Sergeant Major for example, which is not worn as a rank

[ExFlyer]

57 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not about defending Matchee

there was systemic breakdown

which led to the Airborne Regiment being abandoned in the middle of the Somali desert with no way to support them

which incited the chain of command to start issuing misguided and in fact unlawful orders

which led to the breakdown of discipline in the ranks

which caused the Airborne Regiment to be disbanded

as part of a Decade of Darkness wherein the whole military was neglected

which is why the force was not prepared for the war in Afghanistan at the end of the decade

Incorrect, there was more than one squad operating in theatre. Only one tortured and murdered. This was a rogue operation , crime and group. Nothing systemic, just one bunch of over eager bullies.

 

42 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

which was a war crime in violation of national and international law and the laws of armed conflict

which incited the complete breakdown of discipline in the ranks when said direction was carried out

with catastrophic results, not just for the Airborne Regiment, but the entire military

Rough them up is not an order to torture and murder.

36 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

if you know so little about the Army that you don't even know what ISCC is, then you are not qualified to comment

I can comment on your posts and comments and a report, an action or anything else. You do it so well when you don't know what acronyms or even the situation is.

I am sure there are many many acronyms that you do not know regarding Navy or Air Force and even Army issues, situations, specifics. Do not play a silly game here. You are wrong in to your defence of Matchee and his ilk.

So, what is ISCC? and as an appointed lower rank, what authority doe it give him?

12 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I've heard this assertion before but I can't find any evidence to back it up

Master Corporal is listed as a rank in the official rank structure

because in order to standardize with French

Canada switched from the British rank structure

which is Lance Corporal followed by Corporal

to the French Army rank structure which is Caporal followed by Caporal Chef

the English translation of Caporal Chef being Master Corporal

certainly there was no doubt that as a Master Corporal I outranked a Corporal

  I've made Corporals click their heels together for me many times

Master Corporal is also worn as a rank, two Chevrons with a Maple Leaf

as opposed to the appointment of Sergeant Major for example, which is not worn as a rank

Why do you need so many posts to address one subject???

If you know so much, how come you don't know that

"3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT

(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal. (2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal. (3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals."

"The rank, formally an appointment as a senior corporal, gives the MCpl authority over all privates and corporals. As such, a MCpl is a first level supervisor who will be assessed on his/her ability to manage and develop subordinates."

So, click your heels at that LOL

 

The rank, formally an appointment as a senior corporal, gives the MCpl authority over all privates and corporals. As such, a MCpl is a first level supervisor who will be assessed on his/her ability to manage and develop subordinates."

[Army Guy]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:57 PM, Dougie93 said:

Canada is not a Frozen Australia

Canada is a Giant New Zealand

Your right ,Australia has a much smaller area of responsibility to look after, smaller GDP, smaller population base. It soldiers are one of highest paid in the western world, and yet it has a much more capable military, equipped with modern equipment light years ahead of our nation... 

So ya kind of embarrassing when we has a nation with a much larger GDP, population base, can not compete Australia, and as you put it , can barely compete with New Zealand, or the smaller NATO countries which mange to equip their militaries with modern equipment. 

[Dougie93]

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So ya kind of embarrassing

I was never embarrassed to be a 48th Highlander of Canada

it was truly is a regimental family

I only joined for Regiment, Colours & Commander-in-Chief

you know it was my honour & privilege to serve with 1 RCR

I did expect to be treated as a Militia Maggot

but that never happened

I remember my first day in G-101 A Block

Corporal Jimmy Donovan, from Cape Breton, gave me the briefing

he said "just do your job, respect the boys who live here, and don't mess up my common room"

and that was truth

1 RCR boys went to war for me down at Sassy's & the River Club

once you live in G-101, you're one of the boys

1 RCR took care of me like one of their own

even when I got Defaulters, that was on me, 129 for fighting

but I was fighting shoulder to shoulder with 1 RCR, so it was all worth it

can you imagine, being a 48th Highlander

working in the Recce Platoon lines

with Captain Sprague, Warrant Deroche and Corporal Frank Mellish ?

that was not embarrassing

while I dated the beautiful daughter of an RCR Sergeant whose family took me into their home ?

that was not embarrassing

it's not about the kit, it's not about the budget, it's not about aircraft carriers

it's only about the brothers to the left & right of you, and their families

that is what I learned at Moss Park Armoury

that is what I learned at Victoria Barracks

The 48th Highlanders of Canada were born in  a church, St. Andrew's on King Street West

it's not a job, it's religion

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

26 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Incorrect, there was more than one squad operating in theatre. Only one tortured and murdered. This was a rogue operation , crime and group. Nothing systemic, just one bunch of over eager bullies.

 

Rough them up is not an order to torture and murder.

I can comment on your posts and comments and a report, an action or anything else. You do it so well when you don't know what acronyms or even the situation is.

I am sure there are many many acronyms that you do not know regarding Navy or Air Force and even Army issues, situations, specifics. Do not play a silly game here. You are wrong in to your defence of Matchee and his ilk.

So, what is ISCC? and as an appointed lower rank, what authority doe it give him?

Why do you need so many posts to address one subject???

If you know so much, how come you don't know that

"3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT

(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal. (2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal. (3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals."

"The rank, formally an appointment as a senior corporal, gives the MCpl authority over all privates and corporals. As such, a MCpl is a first level supervisor who will be assessed on his/her ability to manage and develop subordinates."

So, click your heels at that LOL

 

The rank, formally an appointment as a senior corporal, gives the MCpl authority over all privates and corporals. As such, a MCpl is a first level supervisor who will be assessed on his/her ability to manage and develop subordinates."

I think the problem with the Airborne was firmly entrenched well before Somalia, every Infanteers dream was to become an airborne soldier. atleast mine, i had lots of friends that had told me stay away from the Airborne, it is not what it use to be...problems like someone taking a rifle shot at the CO's window in his office while he was in it, burning the DCO car to the ground on the parade square during office hours, weapons' and other valuable equipment being stolen and sold to criminal organizations, massive hazing rituals...

The Airborne used to be where soldiers could take the next step in their careers, it was at the time Canada's premier fighting force...before Somalia it was a shit show, it was however cleaned up after the tour, most of the bad apples removed , chain of command was swept clean, returned back to it's glory days, then it was shut down...and all that expertise lost for the most part...

Dougie is right any abuse of a POW is a war crime , including roughing them up...hard to prove but it is still considered a war crime. making it an illegal order, not to be followed, but instead to be reported. Did those 3 troops take it to far yes, they did...way to far, but then again what is the exact definition of roughing someone up.. The screams of this incident could be heard across the camp, and NO one stopped them...( that was released in so many testimonies of troops on the ground)  So the Chain of command lied when they said no one knew of this happening...and it went on for hours...By that time it was a huge cover your ass, issue...It is telling that no one stopped them...Lots of books written about this topic, most of them are good reads...

All that said once the bullets start flying and some of your friends get killed, it is "almost" impossible to remain impartial towards captured enemy combatants... getting roughed up would be an under statement, emotions run very high and can impair your judgement, to the point it is easy to cross that line...

Most of these guys were operating with US spec ops, doing raids and High value targets, they were operating on War time operations not peace keeping UN ones, which is what they were sent over to do...So things can get a little , or a lot murky to what the SOP are or should have been...

With all that said i don't recall the entire military in the same state, i was just a young corporal at the time, and we never had anything go on in the Bn that even came close to what happened with the Airborne...Mcpl were god like back then if they barked you jumped, or you got fuc*ed up, by them or the SGT which meant Confined to Barracks or duties forever, or charges...

Shortly after all this happened the military was a target for government officials looking for funding, the decade of darkness came shortly after, with 4 Brigade the next on the hit list, along with all the fighter sqns that went with it...they offered large payouts for soldiers to release, then shortly after they found out nobody was counting how many were getting out, DND was not paying all that well so big pay days attracted a lot of people, so they stopped releasing people and went back and offered another pay day to hire some of them back...ya crazy times. 

[Army Guy]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I was never embarrassed to be a 48th Highlander of Canada

it was truly is a regimental family

I only joined for Regiment, Colours & Commander-in-Chief

you know it was my honour & privilege to serve with 1 RCR

I did expect to be treated as a Militia Maggot

but that never happened

I remember my first day in G-101 A Block

Corporal Jimmy Donovan, from Cape Breton, gave me the briefing

he said "just do your job, respect the boys who live here, and don't mess up my common room"

and that was truth

1 RCR boys went to war for me down at Sassy's & the River Club

once you live in G-101, you're one of the boys

1 RCR took care of me like one of their own

even when I got Defaulters, that was on me, 129 for fighting

but I was fighting shoulder to shoulder with 1 RCR, so it was all worth it

can you imagine, being a 48th Highlander

working in the Recce Platoon lines

with Captain Sprague, Warrant Deroche and Corporal Frank Mellish ?

that was not embarrassing

while I dated the beautiful daughter of an RCR Sergeant whose family took me into their home ?

that was not embarrassing

it's not about the kit, it's not about the budget, it's not about aircraft carriers

it's only about the brothers to the left & right of you, and their families

that is what I learned at Moss Park Armoury

that is what I learned at Victoria Barracks

The 48th Highlanders of Canada were born in  a church, St. Andrew's on King Street West

it's not a job, it's religion

Thats not what i meant at all, i do not regret one minute of my service, and i will not throw a shade over anyone that has stood up and served. I was honored to serve along side of the best Canada has to offer...and would gladly do it all over again, in a heart beat...my beef is with the government and it's people...

What is embarrassing is how our country and our government treats this entire file, of manning, equipping, and looking after it's broken vets thats embarrassing, and in some cases disgusting... and when your watching a good friend bleed out becasue we were in the wrong vehs, or did not have the right tools to do the job... then yes it is about kit and equipment,

Everyone of our soldiers have signed on to unlimited liability, that was their agreement to stand up and take the fight to the enemy,  and with that the government is responsible to ensure it has done it's best to give you the tools of the trade, and the best in training opportunities to prepare you for that...and our citizens who we fight for, and risk our lives for, their responsibilities is to ensure the government does not abuse their position and forget it's responsibilities and risk our lives without care being taken... they have for decades failed... 

[Dougie93]

25 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Thats not what i meant at all, i do not regret one minute of my service, and i will not throw a shade over anyone that has stood up and served. I was honored to serve along side of the best Canada has to offer...and would gladly do it all over again, in a heart beat...my beef is with the government and it's people...

What is embarrassing is how our country and our government treats this entire file, of manning, equipping, and looking after it's broken vets thats embarrassing, and in some cases disgusting... and when your watching a good friend bleed out becasue we were in the wrong vehs, or did not have the right tools to do the job... then yes it is about kit and equipment,

Everyone of our soldiers have signed on to unlimited liability, that was their agreement to stand up and take the fight to the enemy,  and with that the government is responsible to ensure it has done it's best to give you the tools of the trade, and the best in training opportunities to prepare you for that...and our citizens who we fight for, and risk our lives for, their responsibilities is to ensure the government does not abuse their position and forget it's responsibilities and risk our lives without care being taken... they have for decades failed... 

but at some point, you have to accept, that Canada is what it is

from the Ross Rifle to the Avro Arrow

Canada is simply not a martial state

the only martial thing Canada ever did, was fight for the British Empire

without the British Empire, Canada no longer has any impetus to fight

it has been decades, our entire lives, and it has never improved, it has only gotten worse

you just have to get on with the rest of your life, brother, let it go

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

but at some point, you have to except, that Canada is what it is

from the Ross Rifle to the Avro Arrow

Canada is simply not a martial state

the only martial thing Canada ever did, was fight for the British Empire

without the British Empire, Canada no longer has any impetus to fight

Canada does not have to be a martial state to look after it's soldiers... if it wants to play grown up games then it needs to play by the rules, taking short cuts or being cheap has cost the life's of good men that expected our country to have their backs...without support of the government and it's citizens, you might as well step in front of a speeding bus.... it takes all 3 to make a successful military and foreign policy... Perhaps i have been jaded by my past experience, of marching soldiers onto the back of hercs while caring flag draped coffins of lost comrades, I had become to emotional attached. That could have been saved if we had decent equipment...or maybe it was trying to write a letter to their families to tell them their son died honorable for his country, that could not afford the equipment that could have saved his life...

Soldiers have enough to worry about on the battle field without wondering how do i stay alive in this shitt* equipment...

I would gladly give my life for any of my comrades, becasue that is what we do... i can also be ordered to my death for the benefit of the larger group..... and yet some how it is to much to expect our government not to value my or your life as much, or have any skin in the game... and is it to much to ask our citizens to ensure that the government is keeping up to their obligations...

 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Canada does not have to be a martial state to look after it's soldiers... if it wants to play grown up games then it needs to play by the rules, taking short cuts or being cheap has cost the life's of good men that expected our country to have their backs...without support of the government and it's citizens, you might as well step in front of a speeding bus.... it takes all 3 to make a successful military and foreign policy... Perhaps i have been jaded by my past experience, of marching soldiers onto the back of hercs while caring flag draped coffins of lost comrades, I had become to emotional attached. That could have been saved if we had decent equipment...or maybe it was trying to write a letter to their families to tell them their son died honorable for his country, that could not afford the equipment that could have saved his life...

Soldiers have enough to worry about on the battle field without wondering how do i stay alive in this shitt* equipment...

I would gladly give my life for any of my comrades, becasue that is what we do... i can also be ordered to my death for the benefit of the larger group..... and yet some how it is to much to expect our government not to value my or your life as much, or have any skin in the game... and is it to much to ask our citizens to ensure that the government is keeping up to their obligations...

you've done your duty, many times over

you've gone above and beyond the call

realistically,  you have done all that can be done

we are in the autumn of our lives now

it's been 150 years and Canada has never changed on this file

you need and deserve to find peace

you have to let it go, stop torturing yourself

these are concerns are for younger men

with failing hands we pass the torch, be theirs to hold it high

[BeaverFever]

Time for some fresh upbeat Army PR

 

#OpUNIFIER is continuing to deliver training to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Hear from Ukrainian soldier “Artem”, and the incoming and outgoing Officers Commanding (UK Training Element), Maj Law and Maj Miranda about what this means to them, and the CAF members deployed.

Edited August 2, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Army Guy]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:15 PM, ExFlyer said:

War is war and "2010 and 2012, ISAF had 400 military bases throughout Afghanistan (compared to 300 for the ANSF)^[7] and roughly 130,000 troops. A total of 42 countries contributed troops to ISAF, including all 30 members of NATO."

Canada was a small, very small contributor and did nothing on it's own. Canada was directed to do what it did and when.

When our soldiers started to come home dead, the public was very much interested in the Military and put tremendous pressure on the conservative government to get better and more equipment.

Unfortunately, Canadians have a short memory.

Yes we had a small contribution when you compare it to the number of soldiers we had on the ground, but lets also remember during this entire time Canada only had 3 under sized Brigade groups, and for a few years 5 Brigade was held out of that battle order due to some issues in Quebec, so each brigade would scrap up 2 rotos in one year, first one is no issue but the second one normally would include people that just got back or posted in... also keep in mind all soldiers were promised we could only do one tour each year... hard to do when your brigade is only at 3/4 strength...

Our AO was larger than the size of PEI, thats a lot of ground for a battle group 1/2 a brigade group plus PRT... hence why we were always on the road...i would say more like a fire brigade running from fire to fire...We were always punching above our weight class but we needed to to survive...lets also remember to cover all that territory we established tons of FOB's (forward operating bases)...draining manpower even further...

I am a conservative down to the bone, but when it comes down to equipment purchases, truth be told the liberals have purchased more than any conservative government... Under harper yes it is true some purchases were sole sourced, but they could have done so much more, it should also be noted noting was ever done  unless enough soldiers had died first to get people at home to pressure the government. The media did a very good job at explaining this to the people, and still do, however most Canadians are not listening...to put that pressure on the government... kind of like the Leo story, why did we only send some few, the media uncovered that they lack parts and training...and most are not operational... well we only have less than 104, 34 training tanks, 20 LeoIIA4M, 20 LeoIIA6M, and we could only mange to send 4 leoIIA4, thats got to be a reed flag...It zipped over most Canadians heads...the only ones interested in that fact was the media...

[Dougie93]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Time for some fresh upbeat Army PR

 

#OpUNIFIER is continuing to deliver training to the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Hear from Ukrainian soldier “Artem”, and the incoming and outgoing Officers Commanding (UK Training Element), Maj Law and Maj Miranda about what this means to them, and the CAF members deployed.

might as well send everything to the Ukrainians

send them the frigates, the submarines, the CF-18s too

Slava Ukraini, Geroyim Slava

Edited August 3, 2023 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

you've done your duty, many times over

you've gone above and beyond the call

realistically,  you have done all that can be done

we are in the autumn of our lives now

it's been 150 years and Canada has never changed on this file

you need and deserve to find peace

you have to let it go, stop torturing yourself

these are concerns are for younger men

with failing hands we pass the torch, be theirs to hold it high

You've said this many time dougie, once a Royal always a Royal, our duty is never done, you may be retired but duty and loyalty to the Regiment is a life long endevours. My duty will end when I've taken my last breath. Be it here on this forum and others, or through the many veterans groups i take part in...

Will i make a difference, maybe not, i will never know if i do not try....after all the Regiments moto is "Never pass a fault"...

 

[BeaverFever]

Cool tweet from RCAF yesterday, although the Ex was a couple of months ago 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by BeaverFever

[ExFlyer]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I think the problem with the Airborne was firmly entrenched well before Somalia, every Infanteers dream was to become an airborne soldier. atleast mine, i had lots of friends that had told me stay away from the Airborne, it is not what it use to be...problems like someone taking a rifle shot at the CO's window in his office while he was in it, burning the DCO car to the ground on the parade square during office hours, weapons' and other valuable equipment being stolen and sold to criminal organizations, massive hazing rituals...

The Airborne used to be where soldiers could take the next step in their careers, it was at the time Canada's premier fighting force...before Somalia it was a shit show, it was however cleaned up after the tour, most of the bad apples removed , chain of command was swept clean, returned back to it's glory days, then it was shut down...and all that expertise lost for the most part...

Dougie is right any abuse of a POW is a war crime , including roughing them up...hard to prove but it is still considered a war crime. making it an illegal order, not to be followed, but instead to be reported. Did those 3 troops take it to far yes, they did...way to far, but then again what is the exact definition of roughing someone up.. The screams of this incident could be heard across the camp, and NO one stopped them...( that was released in so many testimonies of troops on the ground)  So the Chain of command lied when they said no one knew of this happening...and it went on for hours...By that time it was a huge cover your ass, issue...It is telling that no one stopped them...Lots of books written about this topic, most of them are good reads...

All that said once the bullets start flying and some of your friends get killed, it is "almost" impossible to remain impartial towards captured enemy combatants... getting roughed up would be an under statement, emotions run very high and can impair your judgement, to the point it is easy to cross that line...

Most of these guys were operating with US spec ops, doing raids and High value targets, they were operating on War time operations not peace keeping UN ones, which is what they were sent over to do...So things can get a little , or a lot murky to what the SOP are or should have been...

With all that said i don't recall the entire military in the same state, i was just a young corporal at the time, and we never had anything go on in the Bn that even came close to what happened with the Airborne...Mcpl were god like back then if they barked you jumped, or you got fuc*ed up, by them or the SGT which meant Confined to Barracks or duties forever, or charges...

Shortly after all this happened the military was a target for government officials looking for funding, the decade of darkness came shortly after, with 4 Brigade the next on the hit list, along with all the fighter sqns that went with it...they offered large payouts for soldiers to release, then shortly after they found out nobody was counting how many were getting out, DND was not paying all that well so big pay days attracted a lot of people, so they stopped releasing people and went back and offered another pay day to hire some of them back...ya crazy times. 

Never once claimed the abuse of a POW order was not illegal. As a matter of fact, I insisted it was. I questioned his many posts trying to justify or deflect to superiors or excuse that they were ordered.

Yes, they may have been ordered to abuse but again, my contention was that what this one squad did was an action by only one of the groups that got the same order. If the orders were given, then it was given to all yet only one committed torture, murder and took trophy photos.

My disagreement with dougie is not the regiment or the military but that one particular group of men.

The down sizing of the military was for all members, not just soldiers. The Air Force lost valuable technicians as well and it created all sorts of problems for the aircraft maintenance community. DND wanted older members near retirement to quit when in fact, younger techs all bailed out and went to work for airlines. What we had left, was very young techs and old snr NCO's. The only thing somewhat good was there were lots of promotions to fill vacancies which bottle necked promotions for many years. In the Air Force, MCpl appointments were to fill first level supervisory positions, to be crew or shop leaders etc and were made on Base or Squadron levels and followed up by official message from Career Managers. (meaning no merit board selection process as per other promotions)

I also will never question a soldiers loyalty to a regiment. Like Americans, once a Marine, Hoo Rah, always a Marine. My loyalty is and will always be to SAR as opposed to fighter or transport or Tac Hel squadrons.

[ExFlyer]

On 8/1/2023 at 8:17 PM, Dougie93 said:

you have this image in your mind of Matchee as being some kind of monster

but having met him, I don't think of him like that

he was honestly like an oversized boy,  he was immature

so I remember him as being a tall skinny socially awkward Indian kid who got picked on by the Commando

this photo of Matchee here,  that's my memory of him

I thought you said the only time you ever saw him is when you walked past his room in NDMC and all you did was nod to him?

"he wasn't completely unaware, he didn't know who I was, he just stared at me with a vacant look in his eyes

I wasn't expecting to see him,  I just walked past an open room and glanced in

then after a couple steps, I thought, holy f*ck that was Matchee

so then I looked back in and he stared at me

so I just nodded involuntarily in the face of him

and he nodded back without any real recognition "

[PIK]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Yes we had a small contribution when you compare it to the number of soldiers we had on the ground, but lets also remember during this entire time Canada only had 3 under sized Brigade groups, and for a few years 5 Brigade was held out of that battle order due to some issues in Quebec, so each brigade would scrap up 2 rotos in one year, first one is no issue but the second one normally would include people that just got back or posted in... also keep in mind all soldiers were promised we could only do one tour each year... hard to do when your brigade is only at 3/4 strength...

Our AO was larger than the size of PEI, thats a lot of ground for a battle group 1/2 a brigade group plus PRT... hence why we were always on the road...i would say more like a fire brigade running from fire to fire...We were always punching above our weight class but we needed to to survive...lets also remember to cover all that territory we established tons of FOB's (forward operating bases)...draining manpower even further...

I am a conservative down to the bone, but when it comes down to equipment purchases, truth be told the liberals have purchased more than any conservative government... Under harper yes it is true some purchases were sole sourced, but they could have done so much more, it should also be noted noting was ever done  unless enough soldiers had died first to get people at home to pressure the government. The media did a very good job at explaining this to the people, and still do, however most Canadians are not listening...to put that pressure on the government... kind of like the Leo story, why did we only send some few, the media uncovered that they lack parts and training...and most are not operational... well we only have less than 104, 34 training tanks, 20 LeoIIA4M, 20 LeoIIA6M, and we could only mange to send 4 leoIIA4, thats got to be a reed flag...It zipped over most Canadians heads...the only ones interested in that fact was the media...

What have the libs purchased so far, that's not yrs away. The defence minister was canned for wanting to spend on the military.

[BeaverFever]

National Defence executives rake in almost $3.5 million in bonuses

“You have someone that was supposedly so good at their job that they were worth an extra $100,000?,” said one retired Canadian Forces colonel. “Let’s hear all about their deeds.”

Published Aug 03, 2023  •  Last updated 7 hours ago  •  3 minute read

 

DND's Carling Campus consists of about 28 hectares once owned by Nortel and 120 hectares leased from the National Capital Commission. Photo by Julie Oliver/Postmedia

National Defence civilian executives were awarded almost $3.5 million in bonuses with one public servant being paid an extra $101,000.

The bonuses cover the period between April 2021 and March 2022, a time that involved the federal government and National Defence responding to the pandemic. But it was also a period marked by ongoing bungled defence procurements, cost overruns in the billions of dollars on equipment programs, and allegations of widespread sexual harassment at the department and in the military.

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The bonuses were paid to 252 National Defence executives, according to the documents obtained through the Access to Information law. That means almost all executives in the department received the extra money.

The largest bonus was $101,000, according to the documents. Other significant bonuses clocked in at $55,354, $41,920, $39,578, $36,100, and $30,782. Most bonuses were in the $15,000 range but one civilian executive was awarded $151.84, according to the documents.

The names of the public servants receiving the bonuses were censored from the records to protect their privacy.

During the period outlined the lowest-paid executive would have a salary range of $103,000 to $131,000. Upper-level executives would have a salary range of $195,000 to $230,000.

The salary range for the deputy minister group during this period ranged from a low of $219,000 to the upper level of $371,000.

Ottawa lawyer Michel Drapeau, who obtained the access to information records, criticized the decision to give the public service executives the bonuses, noting they are well paid in the first place and have additional significant benefits. “This is a slap in the face to the average Canadian,” said Drapeau, a retired Canadian Forces colonel. “There is nothing I can think of that happened in the department that would merit such bonuses.”

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National Defence spokesman Dan Le Bouthillier said like all federal organizations, the department follows the Treasury Board Performance Management Program for Executives. That program “encourages excellence in performance by setting clear objectives, evaluating achievement of results, recognizing and rewarding performance, and providing a framework for consistency in performance management,” he added.

Drapeau counters that if the performance of one of the department’s employees was so outstanding that it was worth more than $100,000 then National Defence shouldn’t be afraid of publicizing what that individual did for the money. “You have someone that was supposedly so good at their job that they were worth an extra $100,000?,” said Drapeau. “Let’s hear all about their deeds.”

In June, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation revealed that federal executives took home $1.3 billion in bonuses between 2015 and 2022, citing documents obtained under the Access to Information law.

Those documents listed the average annual bonuses for executives from 2015 to 2022 ranging between $15,550 to $18,252.

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The annual cost of executive bonuses has steadily increased, ranging from $138 million in the 2015-16 fiscal year to nearly $202 million in 2022-23. Throughout the entire public service, government workers were paid over half a billion dollars in bonuses during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Performance measures for executives are based on targets specific to their roles and responsibilities, Treasury Board Spokesperson Martin Potvin told the National Post in June. “Performance pay is an important component of executives’ total compensation package but must be re-earned each year.

“The at-risk nature of performance pay helps to hold executives accountable for delivery of results and excellence in leadership,” Potvin added.

Executives who don’t meet performance targets, he said, are not eligible for bonuses.

According to numbers published online by the federal government, Canada’s federal bureaucracy increased from 257,034 in 2015 — consisting of 195,565 employees of the core public administration and 61,469 working for arm’s-length government agencies — to 335,957 in 2022, with 254,309 working in core administration and 81,648 employed by agencies.

(With files from Bryan Passifiume, National Post)

 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/national-defence-executives-rake-in-almost-3-5-million-in-bonuses