Canadian Defence News

[Venandi]

45 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

EMP would have no effect on the TRIAD

It's the little things, like fuelling to 60K lbs with a wobble pump, plowing the runway, starting the deicing truck, or even getting the deicing fluid for that matter. Recalling a crew (who no longer have phone service) and driving to the airport now becomes a challenge, and just imagine sourcing/delivering IOR parts to remote venues in a timely manner. 

It all sounds pretty easy with your feet up and everybody has a gold plated plan until that roundhouse kick lands.

What I'm suggesting here is that daily stretching and working the heavy bag has its place if/when ballistic solutions are elusive... and they tend to be most elusive when most needed.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Venandi said:

It's the little things, like fuelling to 60K lbs with a wobble pump, plowing the runway, starting the deicing truck, or even getting the deicing fluid for that matter. Recalling a crew and driving to the airport becomes a challenge too and just imagine sourcing/delivering IOR parts to remote venues in a timely manner. 

It all sounds pretty easy with your feet up and everybody has a gold plated plan until that roundhouse kick lands.

What I'm suggesting here is that daily stretching and working the heavy bag has its place when ballistic solutions become elusive.

the TRIAD is entirely hardened against a nuclear EMP, for obvious reasons

it's not hard to harden against EMP & Neutron radiation from a nuclear strike

it's only civilian infrastructure which is vulnerable to EMP

none the less, the missiles would launch, both ICBM's & SLBM's regardless of EMP

it actually takes a direct hit by a high yield thermonuclear warhead to disable a  Minuteman III silo

[Venandi]

Good Lord, we've leaped from the vulnerabilities inherent with over reliance on technology to the nuclear triad and EMP blasts in a single bound.

But realistically, it's the little stuff that eats your lunch and gets sporty with your best efforts. There's a world of daily conundrums that exist below the outer limits of the nuclear triad, it's a place where pretty is as pretty does and simple isn't the same as easy. 

A wise man once said:

In war, while everything is simple, even the simplest thing is difficult. Difficulties accumulate and produce frictions which no one can comprehend who has not seen war.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

You don't need to cut cables and launch missiles. ONE good EMP and we're all f^cked.

Yeah, that's been one of my fears. One EMP properly placed at the right height in the middle of North America would short out all the electrical grids, most likely wipe out almost every unshielded electrical system from computers to radios to the electronics in your cars, trucks, trains and planes. And it would take years to repair even the electrical grid. Which means most of us will die.

It would only cost about $4 billion to shield the American electrical grid, chump change for the US government,  but so far no American administration has been willing to fork up the cash.

And of course, the Canadian government has no plans that go beyond the current election cycle. They'll vote in the money to shield the electrical grid the day after it's destroyed. Except there'll be no power, cars, radios or computers then, so, oh well.

1 hour ago, herbie said:

But if that happened no one else can launch missiles or drones at us either, and they still can't cross the Arctic, Atlantic or Pacific unnoticed to invade.

The American military nuclear system is well-shielded from EMPs, so are a lot of other American military communication and sensor systems. Also, an EMP above North American wouldn't harm countries in Europe or Asia at all 

[Dougie93]

41 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Good Lord, we've leaped from the vulnerabilities inherent with over reliance on technology to the nuclear triad and EMP blasts in a single bound.

again, the TRIAD is hardened against EMP

an EMP burst is detonated in ionosphere

it's not going to effect ICBM's in their silos from there

and its certainly not going to effect the survivable second strike SSBN's under the sea

America in fact already detonated an EMP on Operation Starfish Prime in 1962

1.44 megaton burst at 400,000 kilometres up to induce an EMP

it had no effect whatsoever on the ICBM force nor the SSBN's at sea 

it's only civilian infrastructure which is vulnerable to EMP

NATO nuclear forces have been hardened against EMP and neutron pulse, for decades

it's not actually hard to protect against EMP at all

you could literally protect any electronics from EMP, simply by wrapping it in tin foil

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dougie93

[Venandi]

HTF did you go from drones and the possible vulnerabilities associated with over reliance on technology directly to the nuclear triad EMP bursts and tempest hardened infrastructure? 

Actually, never mind... carry on, I'll ignore you.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[Venandi]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I would suggest that you haven't actually done your research in terms of EMP

 

You'd suggest eh?

We weren't' even talking about EMP... WTF is wrong with you?

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[Venandi]

6 hours ago, herbie said:

It's 2024 and everything defence can be done with sensors, satelites, missiles and drones. And geeks, we need like the 1st Saskatoon Cybergeek Division.
Don't need a big fleet of subs or any big ships.

Here's the quote I was responding to and the response was one of caution with regard to the over reliance on technology and how sometimes low tech solutions can save the day... even in a high tech environment. I simply suggest that it applies across the board and that nothing is as simple as it seems... especially in warfare.

It's no wonder the discussions here go no where.

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[BeaverFever]

4 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

not off the Canadian coast

in fact, the Russians are focusing those efforts in the North Sea

none the less, they must understand that an attack against the Strategic Lines of Communication

will result in World War Three

what is deterring them from that ?

surely not anything Canada does

Yes off the Canadian coast. Does this ring a bell?

 

Strait of Juan de Fuca laser incident

 

On 4 April 1997, a Canadian Armed Forces helicopter was allegedly illuminated by a laser while observing the Russian merchant ship and suspected spy vessel Kapitan Man, which was in the Strait of Juan de Fuca in U.S. territorial waters near Port Angeles, Washington. The Canadian Air Force pilot and the U.S. Navy passenger, who was taking photographs of the ship, reportedly suffered eye pain and injuries consistent with laser exposure.
 

…

Responding to a request based on previous suspicious activity of the Kapitan Man, the Canadian Forcesdispatched a CH-124 helicopter to fly by the ship and take photographs of it and its abnormal aerial antenna structure, which was indicative of a ship that could be conducting ELINT or SIGINT activities. The U.S. Coast Guard had previously confiscated submarine surveillance equipment from the ship in 1993.^[1] At the time of the incident, the Kapitan Manwas 5 nautical miles (9 km; 6 mi) north of Port Angeles, Washington i.e. inside U.S. territorial waters.^[2]

On board the aircraft were U.S. NavyLieutenant Jack Daly and Canadian Forces pilot Captain Patrick Barnes. Lt. Daly was the Navy's foreign-intelligenceliaison officer in Esquimalt, British Columbia, heading a joint U.S.-Canadian helicopter-surveillance operation against Russian, Chinese, and other spy shipsoperating in the Strait of Juan de Fuca, which separates the Canadian province of British Columbia from the U.S. state of Washington, and in Puget Sound, the site of major U.S. nuclear ballistic missile submarine and aircraft carrier bases with the Royal Canadian Navy Pacific Fleet Headquarters in Esquimalt Harbour near Victoria, B.C.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Juan_de_Fuca_laser_incident
 

Also don’t forget this one

 

Canadian military found Chinese monitoring buoys in the Arctic

The Canadian military found and retrieved Chinese monitoring buoys in the Arctic this past fall, a development whose public exposure adds another item to a list of pressing concerns about Beijing’s interventions in Canadian affairs, including interference in recent federal elections.

The buoys were spotted by the Canadian Armed Forces as part of Operation Limpid, a continuing effort to provide early detection of threats to Canada’s security. 

..

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadian-military-found-chinese-monitoring-buoys-in-the-arctic/

 

Look regardless of whether the subs are manned or unmanned clearly there’s a use for them

 

6 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

in terms of ISR, deterrence & SF, the submarine is an astronomically expensive platform for that role

But they can’t be fully replaced by other systems. A P-8 can’t remain on station undetected for days or weeks at a time 

 

 

[BeaverFever]

4 hours ago, Venandi said:

I've flown UAVs while deployed, very capable, enjoyed the experience, the technology is cool and there's no doubt that having them saved Canadian lives in Afghanistan. 

Even so, I have this ingrained and lingering "old guy" fear that over reliance on technology creates vulnerabilities and the more you rely on the technology the more you have to account for those vulnerabilities. I've seen the effect of not doing that over and over again.

It even applies to everyday life, cut a fibre optic cable by accident and the fallout can be significant. No internet, no 911, no cell service, no banking, no scanning items at the grocery store, no flights other than self dispatch (and airlines don't do that), no gas, etc etc.

Huge regional impact right down to traffic lights during rush hour.

If the mission computer fails during a critical ASW event now what? Old timers practice this stuff regularly and when they do, young guys on the crew usually roll their eyes. Things like plotting boards and using smoke markers as a visual references sometimes saves the day. If you drop an electrical bus and all you have is INS an immediate switch to maps and lat/ long is easy if you've practiced it. Not so easy if you haven't. 

The scenarios are endless, I could write a book on degraded ops and ruin your whole day on a check ride...  so, while it needs to be practiced, there's no need to be crazy about it. That said, defence in depth is more than just words.

The HUD's a great thing, HUD cripples aren't.

Sometimes a hand on the stick, one on the throttle, feet on the rudder pedals, lining the target up between your legs and putting  grease pencil marks on the canopy wins the day... some here might be surprised at how often it proves true. One thing seems to be a constant though, it's only guys with grey hair that carry grease pencils. 

Watch for them, if nothing else, the reason they do is sure to be entertaining.

 

 

Thanks for the insight!  What was your MOC?

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

But they can’t be fully replaced by other systems. A P-8 can’t remain on station undetected for days or weeks at a time

but Canada is not a full spectrum military participant anymore

Canada declines to maintain a whole range of capabilities

submarines are the most expensive platform there is

Canada simply cannot afford them, considering the priorities and finances

the continent is defended undersea by the American & British SSN's

and since the threat would approach by stealth beneath the polar ice

Canada acquiring new SSK's wouldn't alter the balance of power

Canada has to pick and choose what platforms it is capable of funding

and submarines fall into the optional basket

I mean, obviously, as there are so many other unfunded priorities

starting with Canada having nowhere near enough troops in the ranks

the core of the Canadian military doctrine is to deploy a medium weight expeditionary infantry army

at minimum to give Aid to the Civil Power in the event of State of Emergency

SSK's are way down on the list of priorities

and even if Canada is to maintain SSKs, "up to 12" is nonsensical

since Canada can't even properly maintain the 4 SSK's it has now

in term of the United Kingdom United States Agreement & associated strategic deterrent

the primary role of the submarine force is to detect track & pursue adversary SSBN/SSGN's

while providing freedom of navigation for American & British SSBN's

the SSK simply plays no role in that mission, since it can't follow where SSN's go

so at the strategic level, Canada gets very little bang for its buck, spending on SSK's

and as I say, if all Canada plans to do is conduct ISR from undersea

that could be done exponentially more affordably using UUV from a mother ship, such as AOPS

the one thing the AOPS has going for it is the multimission bay at the rear

so you put two UUVs there, then lower them into the water with the crane

employing the AOPS as a USV/UUV mothership, plus UAV's from the hangar & flight deck

suddenly makes the AOPS vastly more useful therein

even in terms of ASW combat, the UUV can do things that a submarine cannot

since it is expendable downrange, it can pound the sea with Low Frequency Active SONAR

while the UAV's drop sonobuoys from above

this actually presents enemy nuclear submarines with a serious problem which SSK's could not

the drones go out to persistently find & fix the enemy submarines

then you launch P-8/CH-148 to engage those contacts

by these means, even AOPS becomes a formidable sub hunting force multiplier

through what is called Manned Unmanned Teaming ( MUM-T )

in this age of 21st century drone warfare, even a "lightly armed" platform like AOPS

could pack a tremendous punch, at a very affordable price

drone mothership giving the AOPS a very signifant role in the Task Group alongside the FFG/DDG

in this day & age, you can even overcome AOPS' lack of firepower

simply by box mounting some canister launched Loitering Munitions on it

those UAS actually being the most dangerous weapons in the battle space already

with Loitering Munitions. AOPS could be precision engaging surface targets hundreds of klicks away

to wit, all war is drone war, not in the future, right now ; so get with the program

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

43 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but Canada is not a full spectrum military participant anymore

Canada declines to maintain a whole range of capabilities

submarines are the most expensive platform there is

Canada simply cannot afford them, considering the priorities and finances

the continent is defended undersea by the American & British SSN's

and since the threat would approach by stealth beneath the polar ice

Canada acquiring new SSK's wouldn't alter the balance of power

Canada has to pick and choose what platforms it is capable of funding

and submarines fall into the optional basket

I mean, obviously, as there are so many other unfunded priorities

starting with Canada having nowhere near enough troops in the ranks

the core of the Canadian military doctrine is to deploy a medium weight expeditionary infantry army

at minimum to give Aid to the Civil Power in the event of State of Emergency

SSK's are way down on the list of priorities

and even if Canada is to maintain SSKs, "up to 12" is nonsensical

since Canada can't even properly maintain the 4 SSK's it has now

in term of the United Kingdom United States Agreement & associated strategic deterrent

the primary role of the submarine force is to detect track & pursue adversary SSBN/SSGN's

while providing freedom of navigation for American & British SSBN's

the SSK simply plays no role in that mission, since it can't follow where SSN's go

so at the strategic level, Canada gets very little bang for its buck, spending on SSK's

and as I say, if all Canada plans to do is conduct ISR from undersea

that could be done exponentially more affordably using UUV from a mother ship, such as AOPS

the one thing the AOPS has going for it is the multimission bay at the rear

so you put two UUVs there, then lower them into the water with the crane

employing the AOPS as a USV/UUV mothership, plus UAV's from the hangar & flight deck

suddenly makes the AOPS vastly more useful therein

even in terms of ASW combat, the UUV can do things that a submarine cannot

since it is expendable downrange, it can pound the sea with Low Frequency Active SONAR

while the UAV's drop sonobuoys from above

this actually presents enemy nuclear submarines with a serious problem which SSK's could not

the drones go out to persistently find & fix the enemy submarines

then you launch P-8/CH-148 to engage those contacts

by these means, even AOPS becomes a formidable sub hunting force multiplier

through what is called Manned Unmanned Teaming ( MUM-T )

in this age of 21st century drone warfare, even a "lightly armed" platform like AOPS

could pack a tremendous punch, at a very affordable price

drone mothership giving the AOPS a very signifant role in the Task Group alongside the FFG/DDG

doogie, you play too many video games or what too many fictional movies LOL

[Dougie93]

Canada actually has unique opportunity right now

since Canada has not invested heavily in First Cold War weapon systems designed for war in the 1980's

so Canada could in fact go all in on 21st century drone warfare

which would actually leapfrog Canada ahead of most other NATO countries

which are having to retool for drone war, realizing that most of their kit is actually obsolete

and since drones are not industrial, Canada could easily produce them in droves, with 3D printing

the last thing Canada should be doing is buying SSKs

which is basically slightly upgraded 1960's tech

the future of undersea warfare is quite obviously going to be unmanned

rather than one big submarine with sailors onboard

it's going to be dozens of robot submarines

saturating the battle space, completely expendable downraange

this is called the Commodification of Warfare ; the weapons platform is a commodity not a ship

in that drones are basically like ammo, which guides itself to the target

totally agnostic as to the launching platforms

since you can launch drones from anything, fishing vessels to container ships

already there are UUV drones in development which combine the undersea sensor to shooter loop

a low cost unmanned submarine which goes out and finds the enemy manned submarine

then simply turns itself into a torpedo by launching a suicide attack therein

with the computing power available now, a drone that clever is comparatively dirt cheap

it doesn't have to be remote controlled

since you can program the drone to recognize the acoustic signature of the targets

then the AI takes care of the rest from there, based on your preset ROE's

furthermore, these drones can follow the targets under the polar ice

at a tiny fraction of the cost of an SSN

you could even send a drone submarine to follow a Russian nuclear submarine all the way home

across the Arctic Sea, through the Barents,  and into the Russian bases on the Kola Peninsula

then have it launch an attack from right there, inside their perimeter

this is not science fiction, this sort of computer is commercial off the shelf technology now

there's more than enough computing power in an iPhone to carry out such a mission autonomously

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

57 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

doogie, you play too many video games or what too many fictional movies LOL

not at all

this is present day MILCOTS tech

it already has existed in nascent form for decades

in what is called Self Deploying Torpedo Smart Mine

that's a heavy torpedo carrying a light torpedo inside it

the heavy torpedo self deploys to the target area, then deploys the light torpedo on a tether

it's programmed with Acoustic Intelligence ( ACOUSTINT ) from a data base

it listens for the targets, ignoring acoustic signatures which it is not assigned to attack

when it detects the acoustic signature which it is assigned to attack,

it launches the lightweight torpedo as a rising mine

all you would do with a UUV version, is make the self deploying carrier much longer ranged

it self deploys from thousands of kilometres away

then it just waits until the assigned target signature is present

consults its programmed rules of engagement

if the conditions you programmed it for are met, it simply launches into a suicide attack

sails itself into the enemy submarine and blows itself up

this is not even high tech by today's standards, this is run o' the mill now

and it's a tiny fraction of the cost of sending a manned submarine to do exactly the same thing

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

not at all

....

Yes for sure.

Get out of your basement and shut off that video game LOL

[I am Groot]

16 hours ago, Venandi said:

The outer limits of catastrophic possibilities are often cited but rarely the problem... it's the little things.

In doing Risk Assessment, you consider not just the likelihood of something happening, but the consequences if it does. With EMPs we have something with a low likelihood of happening but absolutely catastrophic consequences that could be hugely moderated at a small cost. Yet isn't being moderated.

It should be.  Hell, any of their super rich guys like Buffet, Gates, Bezos, or Zuckerberg could fund it themselves and hardly notice the missing money. If I was one of them I'd volunteer to take care of the problem. 

Edited July 14, 2024 by I am Groot

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

In doing Risk Assessment, you consider not just the likelihood of something happening, but the consequences if it does. With EMPs we have something with a low likelihood of happening but absolutely catastrophic consequences that could be hugely moderated at a small cost. Yet isn't being moderated.

but bear in mind, an EMP is launching an ICBM to detonate in the ionosphere above the CONUS

that's no different than launching an ICBM at the CONUS

which would incite launch on warning by the TRIAD

so the EMP is no different than any other ballstic missile launched thermonuclear attack

hence it is as deterred therein by the likelihood of retaliation with American thermonuclear weapons

the people getting hysterical about EMP are getting hysterical about thermonuclear war

fair enough perhaps, but an EMP attack is no more likely than a thermonuclear attack at ground zero

ZOMG EMP ! is just a rebranding of the same nuclear standoff we have lived under for fifty years

anybody launching a thermonuclear warhead to detonate above the CONUS

is going to get hit with at least dozens of precisely delivered nukes in retaliation, just for starters

so nothing has actually changed in terms of nuclear deterrence

never mind that EMP only has effects on uninsulated electronics

all military electronics are easily insulated against it

in terms of your own electronics, you could buy a faraday bag to protect them

but actually, if you even just wrapped your electronics in tinfoil, that also insulates against EMP

hence an EMP is not going to disable the military. resulting in it being a suicidal idea for any attacker

all you did was shoot a nuke at America, without disabling the US military

which is game over for you on the spot

as America would then have a mandate

to launch an infinitely more devastating theatre counterforce in retaliation

since it has to be detonated in space,  there is no way to launch an EMP anonymously

all ballistic missiles and satellites are being tracked, so we will know where it came from

first America would see you launching the EMP weapon with SBIRS

then it would be tracked in orbit by the Space Fence

as it approached the CONUS is would be detected by BMEWS

EMP is space war, and in fact;  there is nowhere to hide in outer space

in terms of a nuclear surprise attack

I would submit that the much more diabolical weapon

is the Russian Status-6 Poseidon nuclear powered nuclear armed intercontinental torpedo

NATO Reporting Name ; Kanyon

essentially a large nuclear powered UUV drone armed with a high yield thermonuclear warhead

because that would have a very good chance of being able to sneak up on you

to detonate against a coastal target such as New York and/or Washington

without it actually being clear in the wake, where that bomb exactly came from 

because inner space is in fact a very good place to hide

thus how the Russians are countering Ballistic Missile Defense in orbit

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dougie93

[herbie]

18 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

all military hardware is EMP hardened

EMP would have no effect on the TRIA

Supposedly... only one way to truly test it though.

And entire nations would be hooped rendering their militaries  redundant.

[Dougie93]

Just now, herbie said:

Supposedly... only one way to truly test it though.

And entire nations would be hooped rendering their militaries  redundant.

no, it's already been tested

the way the EMP was discovered, was Operation Starfish Prime in 1962

when America detonated high yield warheads in the ionosphere

now of course, all nuclear weapons bombard with highly charged particles

but it only becomes the wide area EMP effect when it is detonated in space above the CONUS

because the Ionosphere is the medium which delivers the highly charged particles continent wide

[Dougie93]

39 minutes ago, herbie said:

And entire nations would be hooped rendering their militaries  redundant.

well I would concede that the military would be crippled in terms of logistics

because much of that relies on civilian infrastructure

none the less, the EMP is a thermonuclear attack against the CONUS

and the ICBM force on the Great Plains is all EMP hardened

furthermore the survivable second strike SSBN's are totally impervious to EMP under the sea

so it would be suicidal for any enemy to launch the EMP attack

since that would be the most likely way to incite the TRIAD to massively retaliate under duress

4 x SSBN-726 launching 96 Trident II delivering at least 768 W76 100 kiloton warheads

450 LGM-30 Minuteman III's delivering 1,350 W87 450 kiloton warheads

so there is as much deterrence against an EMP attack

as there is against any other type of nuclear attack on the CONUS

I mean, basically invoking the EMP is saying that some enemy is going to nuke America

which is a Sword of Damocles that we have all lived under for our entire lives

and all those enemies know what happens next if they ever go there

so nothing has actually changed

as the Eagle with thunderbolts in talons grasped

remains at launch on warning hair trigger alert

DEFCON 5 is not peace, rather it is 15 minutes notice to move, at all times

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dougie93

[herbie]

Retaliatory vengeance first?

Every single person in all the forces would be needed to restore power, lights, gas, water & sewer and clear the streets of dead vehicles or they couldn't even move themselves.

An actual WW3 is like that old Emperor of Ethiopia - Highly Unlikely.

I hope the dumbest person on earth is still smart enough to avoid such a scenario.

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, herbie said:

Retaliatory vengeance first?

Every single person in all the forces would be needed to restore power, lights, gas, water & sewer and clear the streets of dead vehicles or they couldn't even move themselves.

An actual WW3 is like that old Emperor of Ethiopia - Highly Unlikely.

I hope the dumbest person on earth is still smart enough to avoid such a scenario.

it all comes back to SECDEF Robert Strange McNamara

he sought a solution to the tactical nuclear warfare problem

tactical meaning "to fight", to wit nuclear weapons which you intend to use

his solution is called Mutual Vulnerability, Mutually Assured Destruction the media called it 

we in essence hold each others population centres hostage to each other nukes

this is called Countervalue

the real threat against that is not EMP

rather, MAD only works if you get rid of all tactical nuclear weapons, simply holding on to the City Killers

the failure of the McNamara Doctrine is that neither side has ever gotten rid of their tactical nuclear weapons

both sides continue to maintain an arsenal of tactical nukes, to fight a theatre thermonuclear war

this is called Counterforce

so it's unlikely that there would be an interpolar exchange between nuclear powers

but there is broad latitude to fight a nuclear war in theatre

the nuclear powers don't nuke each other, but they instead nuke each others proxies at the tactical level

furthermore we could also engage in tactical nuclear warfare at sea

wherein we nuke each others aircraft carriers & submarines on the high seas,

from where the world is ultimately ruled

 

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

but bear in mind, an EMP is launching an ICBM to detonate in the ionosphere above the CONUS

that's no different than launching an ICBM at the CONUS

which would incite launch on warning by the TRIAD

It is different in this one, singular way: You only need one missile and one nuke to destroy both the United States and Canada. 

Edited July 14, 2024 by I am Groot

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

It is different in this one, singular way: You only need one missile and one nuke to destroy both the United States and Canada. 

I'd rather get EMP'd than have the radioactive black rain coming down from a City Killer which hit Chicago

looking  on the bright side, our totalitarian government would cease to have any power over us

basically you're just getting back to nature and local tribalism

unlike in a Countervalue strike, nothing is radioactive, all the farms are still productive, and the water is clean

[I am Groot]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'd rather get EMP'd than have the radioactive black rain coming down from a City Killer which hit Chicago

looking  on the bright side, our totalitarian government would cease to have any power over us

basically you're just getting back to nature and local tribalism

unlike in a Countervalue strike, nothing is radioactive, all the farms are still productive, and the water is clean

Yeah, and there's no food. No way to heat your home in the winter. No transportation unless you can steal a horse before someone kills it for food. No communications.  Guns still work, though, so it would be survival of the fittest like Road Warrior, with gangs of killers roaming the land looking to steal whatever food they can get.

Edited July 14, 2024 by I am Groot