Army Guy Posted July 7, 2023 Author Report Posted July 7, 2023 On 7/4/2023 at 10:11 PM, August1991 said: Army Guy, I agree and disagree. Using NATO, Bush Jnr tried to get us involved in Iraq. Chretien said no. For better or worse, we got involved in Afghanistan. ======= But let's be honest, in Sep 2001, did Afghanistan attack a member of NATO? ==== As for this whole "we'll modernise the Afghans... ", BS. My opinion at the time (and now) is that our soldiers were there simply to show the Taliban never to harbour people who attack America. That's it, that's all. Come home safely. We Canadians lost about 100 souls in this mission. To me, they chose this occupation. Like i said everyone is entitled to an opinion, your is not based on facts but rather opinion... Iraq was not a war that the US tried to declare as a Article 5, but rather based on suspected weapons' of mass destruction. Canadians across the country breathed a sign of relief when the PM announced we would not go to Iraq... and could not wait to go to war with sheep herders in Afghanistan...streets were lined with Canadians cheering on soldiers in the middle of the night...The PM really did not have a choice, about going to Iraq, Iraq's military was armed far better than Canadian battle group we could have sent, and Canadians would have just gotten in the way... The fact we did have troops there in the second gulf war is telling... The government of Afghanistan refused to hand over Bin ladin and his chain of command which were hiding in Afghanistan, Bin Ladin's terrorist were imbedded into Afghanistan military... either way you look at it Afghanistan government made a decision that cost them their government.. For a guy who does not know much of what went on in that country, your very quick to judge what went on there ,you and millions of other Canadians, and why we sent troops there. we were there for many reasons , reasons that changed as time pasted. what i do know is our Nation sent our soldiers there "to close with and destroy the enemy"... to kill as many Taliban and terrorist as we could possible kill...other missions would included winning hearts and minds like building paved roads, improve trade routes, build a huge dam project, dig wells, etc... to keep locals from supporting the Taliban... the Taliban had their ways as well like killing an entire family in the village, they used terror and death to persuade people to support them...like skinning an old man alive, leaving him to bake and cook in the morning sun.... leaving him staked out on a road for us and his village to find...Ya nice guys... Well on patrol i shared my lunch with a young Afghanis girl maybe 10 years old, the Taliban had cut both her hands off for going to school, one we had built for them and would patrol past it daily...they also raped and killed her mother, her father had to work in another town, so she was left alone to fend for her self during the day....This was my excuse to be there , so she could go to school i would gladly have risked my life to kill Taliban terrorists every day to give her that chance at going to school... At the time i have children as well young about her age and can't imagine what i would have done if they had done that to my daughter... Now you don't have to agree or like my choices, like i said many times each soldier has his or her own reasons to risk their lives in another country...and along as my brothers in arms were risking theirs i would be at their side, end of story.... no one was trying to be hero's just soldiers doing their jobs. I've heard that excused many times you choose that occupation you get what you get, it all comes with the job... 100 % right, most of us knew that the job was deadly, and for the most part we were prepared for that what i was not prepared for was how our government would treat us on our return...and how the people of Canada allowed it to happen, it still happens today... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
August1991 Posted July 7, 2023 Report Posted July 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: '''' Well on patrol i shared my lunch with a young Afghanis girl maybe 10 years old, the Taliban had cut both her hands off for going to school, one we had built for them and would patrol past it daily...they also raped and killed her mother, her father had to work in another town, so she was left alone to fend for her self during the day....This was my excuse to be there , so she could go to school i would gladly have risked my life to kill Taliban terrorists every day to give her that chance at going to school... ''' Disagree. The police/military is not designed to win "Hearts & Minds". ====== Years ago, to a catastrophe, I noted that we send both the police/military and ambulance people/social workers. Quote
August1991 Posted July 7, 2023 Report Posted July 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: .... what i do know is our Nation sent our soldiers there "to close with and destroy the enemy"... to kill as many Taliban and terrorist as we could possible kill... '''' All things considered, I suspect the people in Afghanistan (and Pakistan) got the message. They will not harbour more Saudi radicals Quote
Army Guy Posted July 7, 2023 Author Report Posted July 7, 2023 15 hours ago, August1991 said: Disagree. The police/military is not designed to win "Hearts & Minds". ====== Years ago, to a catastrophe, I noted that we send both the police/military and ambulance people/social workers. Military strategist would disagree with you, winning hearts and minds has been a part of the military structure for decades.. 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 7, 2023 Author Report Posted July 7, 2023 15 hours ago, August1991 said: All things considered, I suspect the people in Afghanistan (and Pakistan) got the message. They will not harbour more Saudi radicals The message they got was the western powers do not have the metal capacity nor will to wage war over long periods of time, and are restrictive by to many rules, or the will to win at all costs. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
WestCanMan Posted July 7, 2023 Report Posted July 7, 2023 (edited) On 7/4/2023 at 7:02 AM, BeaverFever said: At the time of the great outsourcing globalization rush, the right and centrists were the champions of globalization and offshoring while the left and labour unions were opposed. Sorry but it’s a fact. And as I’ve said a hundred times over, Clinton, Chretien and Martin were economic conservatives. 1) That's a bunch of horseshit. Conservatives have never been about shipping jobs overseas, and the people you just named were all voted in by leftards. It's bizarre that you're trying to shift the blame for things that leftards did to conservatives, but bizarre is normal for you I guess... 2) FYI labour unions are one of the main reasons why we wind up losing factories/jobs offshore. 3) Now leftards are killing our energy sector, taxing domestic energy, and trying to get our country to run on green tech (from China) and batteries (whose rare earth minerals all come from China). Edited July 7, 2023 by WestCanMan Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. Ex-Canadian since April 2025
Army Guy Posted July 7, 2023 Author Report Posted July 7, 2023 On 7/4/2023 at 11:02 AM, BeaverFever said: At the time of the great outsourcing globalization rush, the right and centrists were the champions of globalization and offshoring while the left and labour unions were opposed. Sorry but it’s a fact. And as I’ve said a hundred times over, Clinton, Chretien and Martin were economic conservatives. After the Great outsourcing and technology transfer of the 90s and 2000s happened at the behest of the Right, the Centrists and the business lobby, western countries become increasingly dependent on countries like China for basic necessities from prescription drugs to manufactured goods and electronics. The necessity for trade with China became an accepted fact of life that EVERY party has had to deal with since. The business community had invested billions of dollars over several decades reconfiguring their entire business model and long term corporate strategy around offshoring to places like China, you can’t just undo that with a snap of your fingers. Thanks to the Right and Centrists, by the early 2000s dependence on trade with China had become “just the way things are now, like it or not”. And the Right and the Centre liked it while the “left” such as Unions and the NDP mostly resigned to it as unescapable reality. Politicians and parties on the centre and right are only NOW beginning to admit that perhaps outsourcing everything to China wasn’t such a wise idea but many in the business community are still not ready to kill their golden goose. Business people still wield considerable influence over government and public opinion and many industries and companies couldn’t de-globalize or re-shore their business even if they wanted to because their business would no longer be viable without the peasant labour and lax regulation of these third world regimes and authoritarian states. So now in this globalized world we have this thing called “limited war” where we build up military resources against China while still pursuing new trade deals with them and actively provide weapons to Ukraine to kill Russian soldiers while still allowing many of our companies to trade and do business in Russia Calling Chretien an economical conservative might take awhile to process, but like everything politicians do everything is hinged on votes, the main driving force here was profits, and not having to pay high wages meant more profits for the suits...profits did not have a political strip, but rather a very focused eye on how much money was in it. Politicians were just there for photo ops and media coverage...And while China does have a limit to where they can push the western world, a lot of companies are not actively searching other countries to push their manufacture to, other markets where wages are much lower...India, Vietnam etc... What our politicians should be doing is offering incentives to companies to move manufacturing to other sources..or perhaps back home... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted July 7, 2023 Report Posted July 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: The message they got was the western powers do not have the metal capacity nor will to wage war over long periods of time, and are restrictive by to many rules, or the will to win at all costs. Not sure what you mean by "wage war over long periods of time"? Canada was there for 13 years and the US was there for 20 years. What western powers were not able to confront was how intense and what a Holy War was. Quote Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
Army Guy Posted July 8, 2023 Author Report Posted July 8, 2023 7 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Not sure what you mean by "wage war over long periods of time"? Canada was there for 13 years and the US was there for 20 years. What western powers were not able to confront was how intense and what a Holy War was. Afghanistan, Vietnam were all conflicts that were fought over long periods of time...The civilian people of those western nations do not have what it takes for a long protracted war, once it becomes unpopular with them, funding and interest dry up... NATO just decided one day to pack up and leave, in some cases in the middle of the night and on short notice...we just gave up...on a war that was by no means won... Canada along with other many other nations was not willing to invest in anything substantial IE better equipment, more equipment or more man power, initially yes there was a will, but that died off rather quickly right after we stopped putting in 2 Battle groups it was down hill after that. The western civilians of those countries grew tired of the whole thing, if you want a protracted war you need to have the people behind you, so funding and new equipment can flow easily, Canadians that died off around the 5 or 6 th year... And the last 3 years we had committed to a training mission, not combat... Not sure what you mean by how intense, after NATO took the country, there was only a few well coordinated attacks involving more than a couple terrorist OP Medusa was one of them...As for fighting an enemy that was determined, more than willing give their lives for an certain outcome sure...most conflicts in the middle east were or are like this. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted July 8, 2023 Report Posted July 8, 2023 8 hours ago, Army Guy said: Afghanistan, Vietnam were all conflicts that were fought over long periods of time...The civilian people of those western nations do not have what it takes for a long protracted war, once it becomes unpopular with them, funding and interest dry up... NATO just decided one day to pack up and leave, in some cases in the middle of the night and on short notice...we just gave up...on a war that was by no means won... Canada along with other many other nations was not willing to invest in anything substantial IE better equipment, more equipment or more man power, initially yes there was a will, but that died off rather quickly right after we stopped putting in 2 Battle groups it was down hill after that. The western civilians of those countries grew tired of the whole thing, if you want a protracted war you need to have the people behind you, so funding and new equipment can flow easily, Canadians that died off around the 5 or 6 th year... And the last 3 years we had committed to a training mission, not combat... Not sure what you mean by how intense, after NATO took the country, there was only a few well coordinated attacks involving more than a couple terrorist OP Medusa was one of them...As for fighting an enemy that was determined, more than willing give their lives for an certain outcome sure...most conflicts in the middle east were or are like this. My response was to your statement "western powers do not have the metal capacity nor will to wage war over long periods of time". My point was and is that 13 and 20 years at war is "a long period of time" as you seem to agree with. As for pulling out in the middle of the night, I think the pull outs were talked about and quite anticipated. What meant by intense is that the US and Canada et al were not anticipating the determination of the enemy. That they would keep fighting even though things were so against them and as you say "As for fighting an enemy that was determined, more than willing give their lives for an certain outcome sure". Quote Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
I am Groot Posted July 8, 2023 Report Posted July 8, 2023 (edited) On 7/2/2023 at 11:31 PM, August1991 said: What worldwide "tensions"? Ask your nurse to let you see the news one of these days when you're feeling somewhat coherent. Edited July 8, 2023 by I am Groot Quote
I am Groot Posted July 8, 2023 Report Posted July 8, 2023 On 7/3/2023 at 1:57 PM, BeaverFever said: No the MAGA populists are the ones conflating themselves with conservatives and I’ve repeatedly said here they are anything but. It’s actually the conservatives who have done nothing to challenge that because they have no other ideas and their previous project (neoliberalism) is now a debunked failure. The problem conservatives have in getting their ideas across is that this is a largely uneducated word (and I include Canada and the US in that) and an impatient one. Complicated ideas hurt people's heads. And it's hard to convey them in a seven-second sound byte. The ideas that win are the simple ones. "I'll take money from those people who have more than you and give it to YOU!" is the oldest and easiest one to convey for a politician. It even beats out "Those people are BAD! I'll protect you from them!" The conservative philosophy is mostly hands-off: a belief that the market will solve most issues, and that aside from creating a stable society with law and order and legal policies, and protecting the borders, government doesn't need to do a lot. But telling people that if the government lays off businesses will create more jobs and then everyone will have work is more difficult to convey and convince people off compared to "And you get cash! And you! And YOU!" Also, almost every government in Canada and the US are focused more on the short-term. they like announcing grand projects to get their name in the papers but voting money for necessary maintenance doesn't, to their minds, buy them enough votes. So infrastructure is rusting out everywhere. Conservatives should not be buying into that but they have. "We'll save you money by cutting taxes" is the unfortunately favorite conservative pledge. And that's only good if it's done after all the necessary bills (including maintenance) are fully paid and you don't have to borrow for it. Quote
Army Guy Posted July 8, 2023 Author Report Posted July 8, 2023 5 hours ago, ExFlyer said: My response was to your statement "western powers do not have the metal capacity nor will to wage war over long periods of time". My point was and is that 13 and 20 years at war is "a long period of time" as you seem to agree with. As for pulling out in the middle of the night, I think the pull outs were talked about and quite anticipated. What meant by intense is that the US and Canada et al were not anticipating the determination of the enemy. That they would keep fighting even though things were so against them and as you say "As for fighting an enemy that was determined, more than willing give their lives for an certain outcome sure". Sure 13 to 20 years is a long time, but NATO was not really putting in a whole lot of effort into the war, just look at the problems they had with getting countries to put troops in country, most had large caveats on what their troops could do or not do, many had NO combat caveats... these would change almost yearly... the problem they had to increase troops strengths was very telling, i remember at one time peter MacKay lecturing the coalition about troop numbers, ya Canada lecturing any one about anything was very funney...So yes NATO was there , but what was she really doing was another thing. NATO did pull out over night, with very little thought put into the pull out plan, look at the numbers of equipment left behind, look at all the Afghanis nationals who risked their lives helping us most were left behind... Biden faces a huge amount of criticism for the lack of plans and the execution's of it all. look at how many afghan nationals died trying to escape... Don't get me wrong i have much respect for Taliban as fighters, as humans they were trash, sub human ,stray dogs nothing more...for some, their own lives meant nothing, they did not care if they lived or died welcomed death and collecting their virgins, but most that we had captured would choose life over death if given the choice..... but i do give them credit and having huge balls to fight a well equipped while being outnumbered most of the time, on a daily basis. Intense warfare would be best describe at what is going on in Ukraine...fighting is around the clock, loss of life/ equipment is unimaginable. I could not imigine myself in constant combat for that long... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
I am Groot Posted July 9, 2023 Report Posted July 9, 2023 On 6/29/2023 at 11:31 PM, herbie said: Like I said before: those who think commitment can only be judged financially, the problem can be resolved by Canada stocking up on $1000 hammers and $6,000 topilet seats for the military. Canada has repeatedly demonstrated under this government that it has NO commitment to anything. On 6/29/2023 at 11:31 PM, herbie said: Or we could spend half on a new shipyard in Quebec and build an aircraft carrier. We're already doing that in Nova Scotia. Except we're only getting frigates for the price of aircraft carriers. Quote
August1991 Posted July 10, 2023 Report Posted July 10, 2023 On 7/7/2023 at 11:49 PM, Army Guy said: Afghanistan, Vietnam were all conflicts that were fought over long periods of time...The civilian people of those western nations do not have what it takes for a long protracted war, once it becomes unpopular with them, funding and interest dry up... NATO just decided one day to pack up and leave, in some cases in the middle of the night and on short notice...we just gave up...on a war that was by no means won... The US in Vietnam was entirely different from the Soviets in Afghanistan. Is that what you meant? 1 Quote
August1991 Posted July 10, 2023 Report Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) On 7/7/2023 at 2:01 PM, Army Guy said: Military strategist would disagree with you, winning hearts and minds has been a part of the military structure for decades.. I know nothing about the military - but I agreed with Reagan: "We won, they lost." ====== Since 1991, we in the West have screwed this up. Army Guy, We could have had a century or more of peace. Instead, European men are once again killing each other again. Edited July 10, 2023 by August1991 Quote
ExFlyer Posted July 10, 2023 Report Posted July 10, 2023 5 hours ago, August1991 said: I know nothing about the military - but I agreed with Reagan: "We won, they lost." ====== Since 1991, we in the West have screwed this up. Army Guy, We could have had a century or more of peace. Instead, European men are once again killing each other again. European men? I suggest to you that European men (not sure what that means other than the white male?) are the protagonists and not antagonists or adversary Quote Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
Army Guy Posted July 10, 2023 Author Report Posted July 10, 2023 12 hours ago, August1991 said: The US in Vietnam was entirely different from the Soviets in Afghanistan. Is that what you meant? Yes there is a huge difference... do you think the Soviets give a shit what their people think or dislike...i personally think for the soviets it was costing them to much...and with western government it bends before it's peoples opinions...western people want results now, not in 10 years, there is plenty of good books written about this very topic....How is it the west can win every battle but not the war ? the real public opinion battle happens on your media every night not on the battle field......what was it that climate Barbie said, say it often enough and loud enough soon the people will believe it to be true... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 10, 2023 Author Report Posted July 10, 2023 12 hours ago, August1991 said: I know nothing about the military - but I agreed with Reagan: "We won, they lost." ====== Since 1991, we in the West have screwed this up. Army Guy, We could have had a century or more of peace. Instead, European men are once again killing each other again. Build the wall, keep everyone else out, what ever happens outside our walls is not our concern, is that your answer.. we wait until it hits our shores then deal with it...Inter national law exist for what reason ?...we only enforce it when it benefits us... and if the ROC decides it has enough of Quebec's drama are we justified to steam role them and send them back in boats to France...I mean the French and English have fought the most of history, it would be justified right... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 11, 2023 Author Report Posted July 11, 2023 I guess we will know in a few days what justins plans are for military spending, whether he caves and agrees to 2 % or does what he always does, signs onto the new agreement then comes home and announces he has no intention of keeping any of those promises... Maybe NATO is not going to give him the option this time...wonder how that would look on a resume ...even Liberals might agree that is too much. Opinion: Canada's days of freeloading on NATO allies must end (msn.com) 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
I am Groot Posted July 11, 2023 Report Posted July 11, 2023 On 7/10/2023 at 4:46 PM, Army Guy said: Build the wall, keep everyone else out, what ever happens outside our walls is not our concern, is that your answer.. we wait until it hits our shores then deal with it...Inter national law exist for what reason ?...we only enforce it when it benefits us... and if the ROC decides it has enough of Quebec's drama are we justified to steam role them and send them back in boats to France...I mean the French and English have fought the most of history, it would be justified right... Putin has so alarmed them that even famously neutral countries like Sweden, Finland and Switzerland are now frantically looking for mutual defense partners. But the great August knows Russia is just a kindly teddy bear and no threat to anyone. Quote
August1991 Posted July 12, 2023 Report Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) On 7/10/2023 at 4:46 PM, Army Guy said: Build the wall, keep everyone else out, what ever happens outside our walls is not our concern, is that your answer.. we wait until it hits our shores then deal with it... In 1989, the Wall fell. In 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed. You good ordinary Americans won. Kuwait? Since then, the US has more or less f* up everything. === The world needs a counterweight. And the US constitution is not sufficient. Edited July 12, 2023 by August1991 Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 13, 2023 Report Posted July 13, 2023 On 7/7/2023 at 2:19 PM, WestCanMan said: 1) That's a bunch of horseshit. Conservatives have never been about shipping jobs overseas, and the people you just named were all voted in by leftards. It's bizarre that you're trying to shift the blame for things that leftards did to conservatives, but bizarre is normal for you I guess... 2) FYI labour unions are one of the main reasons why we wind up losing factories/jobs offshore. 3) Now leftards are killing our energy sector, taxing domestic energy, and trying to get our country to run on green tech (from China) and batteries (whose rare earth minerals all come from China). 1) Nope its a fact conservatives were always about shipping “low skill” jobs overseas and telling factory workers to go back to school. They were openly pro-globalization and publicly stated capitalism demands that labour must always be performed by the cheapest possible resource that is capable of the task. 2) False because of #1 3)Because of neoliberalism and globalization folly of the last few decades we allowed china to corner the market of rare earth minerals and green tech (among other things) but we can take it back Canada is one of the few advanced economies that has an abundance of all the rare earth minerals required so has a real opportunity to become a true “energy superpower” especially as western countries are starting to look for ways to reduce dependence on countries like China and Russia. 1 Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 13, 2023 Report Posted July 13, 2023 On 7/11/2023 at 1:29 PM, Army Guy said: I guess we will know in a few days what justins plans are for military spending, whether he caves and agrees to 2 % or does what he always does, signs onto the new agreement then comes home and announces he has no intention of keeping any of those promises... Maybe NATO is not going to give him the option this time...wonder how that would look on a resume ...even Liberals might agree that is too much. Opinion: Canada's days of freeloading on NATO allies must end (msn.com) Well we signed the pledge but I doubt we will live up to it, especially not over the long term. There are just no votes to be gained in Canada for any party by increasing the defence budget. In the meantime they also announced this week that there will be an “enduring” deployment of 2,200 CDN troops in Latvia (up from current 800) starting in 2026 which for Canada is major, major commitment but I expect that they will cancel/ drawdown that number first chance. 2026 is far enough away that this Ukraine conflict could resolve before then or a regime change occurs in Moscow. It also looks like 16 P-8 Poseidons will be purchased in the next few years plus they say some day they’ll replace the leopards sent to Ukraine but doubt any of that will move the needle. Quote
WestCanMan Posted July 13, 2023 Report Posted July 13, 2023 2 hours ago, BeaverFever said: 1) Nope its a fact conservatives were always about shipping “low skill” jobs overseas and telling factory workers to go back to school. They were openly pro-globalization and publicly stated capitalism demands that labour must always be performed by the cheapest possible resource that is capable of the task. 2) False because of #1 That's odd because all the politicians that you named were Libs and Dems. Quote 3)Because of neoliberalism and globalization folly of the last few decades we allowed china to corner the market of rare earth minerals and green tech (among other things) but we can take it back Canada is one of the few advanced economies that has an abundance of all the rare earth minerals required so has a real opportunity to become a true “energy superpower” especially as western countries are starting to look for ways to reduce dependence on countries like China and Russia. Canada will never create anything under a lib gov't. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. Ex-Canadian since April 2025
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