Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 8 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Only because conservatives themselves have for the past 40 years modern conservatism originates with Edmund Burke, long before the Neoliberals incited Globalism Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: modern conservatism originates with Edmund Burke, long before the Neoliberals incited Globalism Edmund Burke died over 200 years ago so it’s hard to call that “modern conservatism” while dismissing what conservatives in modern times have ACTUALLY been doing BTW Burke also believed in a rigid social hierarchy and class structure, that those from the lower classes of society must not be allowed to rise to positions of civil authority, and strongly opposed the French Revolution So yeah there are some vestiges of those values remaining among conservatives for sure but they have morphed somewhat Edited July 3, 2023 by BeaverFever 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Edmund Burke died over 200 years ago so it’s hard to call that “modern conservatism” while dismissing what conservatives in modern times have ACTUALLY been doing BTW Burke also believed in a rigid social hierarchy and class structure, that those from the lower classes of society must not be allowed to rise to positions of civil authority, and strongly opposed the French Revolution So yeah there are some vestiges of those values remaining among conservatives for sure but they have morphed somewhat here you are conflating populism with conservatism most populists actually being liberals reacting to the totalitarian progressive left Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: here you are conflating populism with conservatism most populists actually being liberals reacting to the totalitarian progressive left No the MAGA populists are the ones conflating themselves with conservatives and I’ve repeatedly said here they are anything but. It’s actually the conservatives who have done nothing to challenge that because they have no other ideas and their previous project (neoliberalism) is now a debunked failure. To the point you can label populists politically I would say they’re libertarians and many are really just nihilists and hedonists with no real coherent political views of any kind but yes currently they are reacting to what they perceive to be the doing of “the left” Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, BeaverFever said: No the MAGA populists are the ones conflating themselves with conservatives and I’ve repeatedly said here they are anything but. It’s actually the conservatives who have done nothing to challenge that because they have no other ideas and their previous project (neoliberalism) is now a debunked failure. To the point you can label populists politically I would say they’re libertarians and many are really just nihilists and hedonists with no real coherent political views of any kind but yes currently they are reacting to what they perceive to be the doing of “the left” as you have already stated, Burkean counterrevolutionary conservatism is neither populist nor libertarian thus are you directing your screed at a straw man Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 33 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: as you have already stated, Burkean counterrevolutionary conservatism is neither populist nor libertarian thus are you directing your screed at a straw man So I reject populism, I reject Burkean conservatism, I reject neoliberal conservatism, I reject religious conservatism, and I reject the symbiotic relationship that modern conservative parties have formed with all of the above Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, BeaverFever said: So I reject populism, I reject Burkean conservatism, I reject neoliberal conservatism, I reject religious conservatism, and I reject the symbiotic relationship that modern conservative parties have formed with all of the above I would expect that religious conservatism will be what overruns you in the end faith is mightier than politics Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 34 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I would expect that religious conservatism will be what overruns you in the end faith is mightier than politics Like the Sith, religious conservatism always returns but in the end is always defeated Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Like the Sith, religious conservatism always returns but in the end is always defeated I don't see how religious conservatism has ever been defeated, quite the contrary the total collapse of secular liberalism is in progress there is only one thing which can & will rise in the wake Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 27 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I don't see how religious conservatism has ever been defeated, quite the contrary the total collapse of secular liberalism is in progress there is only one thing which can & will rise in the wake Its is always defeated but it always returns. It is rhe dark side of the force Secular liberalism isn’t collapsing. Republicans may have hijacked SCOTUS to roll back social progress but that isn’t going to last long and is not a reflection of what people want. Even most republicans don’t want religious conservatives least of all the hedonistic MAGAs who are giving conservatives all their political energy Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Its is always defeated but it always returns. It is rhe dark side of the force Secular liberalism isn’t collapsing. Republicans may have hijacked SCOTUS to roll back social progress but that isn’t going to last long and is not a reflection of what people want. Even most republicans don’t want religious conservatives least of all the hedonistic MAGAs who are giving conservatives all their political energy you're welcome to your view I am quite confident however that secular leftists like you will be wiped out by the civilizational collapse in progress the 6-3 religious supremacy at the SCOTUS is merely the tip of the iceberg yeehaw Edited July 3, 2023 by Dougie93 Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 30 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: you're welcome to your view I am quite confident however that secular leftists like you will be wiped out by the civilizational collapse in progress the 6-3 religious supremacy at the SCOTUS is merely the tip of the iceberg yeehaw A civilizational collapse will wipe out everyone regardless of their political views secular leftists or otherwise. ButI agree that a conservative SCOTUS is a good indicator that society is closer to collapse In reality a “collapse” of our civilization would mean a steady decline in standard of living towards what we see in Eastern Europe or Latin America or Southeast Asia : Impoverished masses of working poor peasants living in semi-slum housing, general lack of public services, widespread endemic public and private corruption, with small isolated pockets of middle class and wealthy enclaves here and there, all ruled by small class of hereditary business elites. And the transition might happen so gradually that people deny or be unaware that its even happening. That’s what happened woth rhe Roman Empire. Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, BeaverFever said: A civilizational collapse will wipe out everyone regardless of their political views secular leftists or otherwise. not at all secular leftists are bringing their own civilization down into that void will come the faith of religious conservatism this is the downfall of you & your ilk, right now burning in a fire of your own making the fall of the Western Empire incites the rule of the Messiah history goes on a cycle Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 16 minutes ago, Contrarian said: the Celtic boys who have Guinness across the street. Arthur Guinness was a devout Protestant and Unionist he founded the first Sunday School in Dublin, 1786 he served with the Irish Volunteers, a Loyalist militia against the Papists Quote
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, Contrarian said: That gets to show you how people come to an understanding there can be no understanding with the godless atheist Communist left not one step back in the face of Bolshevism better dead than Red Quote
Army Guy Posted July 3, 2023 Author Report Posted July 3, 2023 17 hours ago, August1991 said: Our mission in Afghanistan had nothing to do with NATO. ==== Some 100 Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan. Their mission was different. You know it I know it. Actually it has everything to do with NATO, it was an Article 5 mission declared after the sept 11 attacks on the US...It does not surprise me that a lot of Canadians do not know the history about this conflict, i mean we as a nation were contributing troops and funding there for 14 plus years, we built major paved Highways 100's of KM long , a major dam and hydro project, thousands of wells, sewage drains, dozens of fire stations, repaired hospitals, police stations. Our troops donated fire trucks and ambulances, school supplies, children's winter cloths, tones of candy, out of their own pockets... ....that encompassed many different missions, and operations...The entire Afghanistan conflict was run by NATO and all of it's allied, plus a dozens of other countries which were not part of the NATO alliance I think if your going to throw some numbers around you should atleast fact check them "please", as everyone of them have a name and picture behind each number, each one of them volunteered for this mission, most of those numbers had multiply tours on average 3 tours, some as high as 8 times... 6 months each tour.. I say that becasue i think it is important not only to get the numbers right but to also recognize their sacrifice each of the 40,000 plus soldiers that served there...not being a dick, just trying to remember All those that sacrificed something... 158 Soldiers were killed , 7 civilians including reporters and one diplomate. over 600 soldiers committed suicide after serving in Afghanistan and these numbers continue to rise every year, as soldiers lose the fight to go on... Over 2000 soldiers were injured or wounded... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Air_Field_to_salute.jpg NATO Still Living With Consequences Article 5 Invocation After 9/11 (businessinsider.com) Canada and the War in Afghanistan | The Canadian Encyclopedia Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Contrarian said: So, do what you want with my words, learned enough about you to know, sober or drunk is hard for you to control your anger, as I said one of the soldiers that would beat on Jesus don't mind me, just shooting the breeze & spinning some folk songs the solider who wielded the Spear of Destiny against Christ is beatified Saint Longinus the blood of Christ fell upon him and he was healed then he left the Legion and joined the Apostles and was subsequently beheaded by the Romans & martyred see his monument here, in Saint Peter's Basilica Edited July 3, 2023 by Dougie93 Quote
Army Guy Posted July 3, 2023 Author Report Posted July 3, 2023 On 7/2/2023 at 3:48 PM, ExFlyer said: As I said this can go on and on. Can you really think that a fire fighter or RCMP officer is equivalent of a clerk, dental assistant, supply tech, postal clerk, traffic tech or a myriad of other military jobs?? The media makes many claims,much without research, validity or fact. I have given you the authoritative inks. Yes, you can make more than $70K per year but,it is if you apply for the next level, pass the requirements and get accepted after interviews. Promotion and advancement in the public service is not merit based as it is with the military, it is on qualification and competition. I am sorry, I did not read or comprehend that you worked in the public sector, not public service but public sector?? As for a PG4, they are not head buyers. The PG classification goes up to PG 6 and if that person wrote competitions, had the qualifications, won the competition and passed the interviews, then yes, they make $75K. As I have said, there is no merit promotions in the public service, all is based on competition. As for old equipment, I hope you do not think that you are on a new aircraft next time you go on vacation or the city bus is new. Maintenance on equipment is what it is. Getting parts and persons to do the work is an issue but not the issue. The information I have given you is correct. I am not going to argue with what you think the army needs but clearly it is not getting what you think it needs or deserves and most importantly, civilian people are not buying into it either, hence no recruits. If there are many solutions, I am sure someone within has looked at them from an organizational and economic point. Or are the solutions just talk from the table at the mess? I also have many friends still in as well as those from my public service tenure. The point is, without knowing what is doable and what is viable and the reasons for each, it is all talk. As I said, I have extensive experience in both worlds (not Army specific) and can speak with some expertise. The military "crisis" is lack of interest in the military therefore no one wants in. I am not sure pay (and a military person gets all benefits, health, dental, pension etc) and whatever equipment you think they should have are enough to attract recruits. I really do not know what it is you are trying to convey anymore. Yes it can go on for ever and ever... What you have listed is a bunch of jobs that are never going to be earning over 75 k... what the media said is that the mean average of all the jobs is in the 6 figure wage...Ottawa were you worked is chocked full of civil servants earning more than 6 figures... not hard to do as you were earning more than that when you were in...Do i think the pay scales for military fire fighters are from from their civilian counter parts no i do not, your sources say other words...... and i threw in RCMP because our Military MP's also get spec pay and earn way more than 75 k a year in total...but their is a whole list of jobs that are considered civil service that make well more than 6 figures... The head buyer here is in base supply, he's a PG 04 and makes well more than 75 k... his 2 i/c was a PG03 and made close to 75 k...And to get these jobs all you have to do as you say is apply and have the right quals they are looking for... You seemed to have meet those quals as you transitioned from a project, to PWSGC for your next job...I'm just tring to understand why you think that the others in the military could not be capable of handling procurement on a national scale... as their are already thousands of people within the military that write up contracts for multi million dollar contracts, all forwarded to PWSGC... I mean how hard is it to master that job...with the proper training and well written policies. As for equipment have you ever stepped on an airplane more than 40 years old...when was the last time you seen a transport truck, and taxi cab, train, that was over 40 years old.. I know you not trying to tell me that operating stuff that old, that is meant to go into combat is just me over reacting... there comes a time when even high quality maintenance is not going to be enough...even with the latest upgrades...our F-18 would not stand a chance against gen 4 or 5 aircraft, thats not a grunt saying that thats other air force guys...Our current LAV 6.0 are not up to the same standards as LAV 6.0 that GD was going to sell to Saudis, and if that was a military order then they to should be held reasonable. and if the military can not buy a service pistol in 15 years it is time to replace or upgrade that portion of the chain...but to say political interference is not a factor I'm sorry F-35 project screams it... there are many other samples as well, some one here mentioned the LSVW vehicle, that failed test after test, it was a political interference that had that vehicle sent to the desert to pass, it was the worse vehicle in the army fleet, and most if not all are sitting in fields rotten, do to rust... with no replacement in sight that was in 2014... some where in this process there are huge failures...that need to be fixed... taken 15 plus years to buy pistols just illustrates the system is not functioning well. I'm sure the solutions are not going to come from being more inclusive...Am i sure that the present or currently serving members are quite capable of finding the solution, it seems from the outside it is a struggle......but first you must have a government willing to listen or act on those solutions.. wages, new equipment, funding for parts, etc require more funding...which is not going to happen with this liberal /NDP government, which leaves what exactly... what is going to grab kids attention? do you think having long purple hair is that route or with your 35 years experience could you come up with another solution... It is not surprising we see things from 2 different lenses... it would be extremely odd if we did considering our back grounds and service records...not saying mine is better, or yours is wrong... Mine is based on seeing people killed becasue they equipment we had was sub par, or not enough etc.. . That falls on the CDS and Government heads...and right now i think there is a block some where, i have been under Gen Eyre command many times, he is not one for being constrained or sit there and do nothing....he is playing the card dealt to him, those cards are coming from the government deck...and there is nothing else to do but wait for new cards and new government. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted July 3, 2023 Author Report Posted July 3, 2023 On 7/2/2023 at 8:10 PM, BeaverFever said: The right has sold out to Beijing plenty. It was the right who lead the change during the massive rush to outsource manufacturing jobs overseas to places like China in the first place And despite all the bluster and rhetoric ypu don’t see the right doing much different than the left regarding China policy. The reason is that western capitalists are heavily invested in China and they exert a lot of influence on both parties to leave their golden goose alone. The communist party of China has figured out how to use capitalist greed as weapon against capitalist countries. As the saying goes a capitalist will sell you the rope you plan to hang him with, even when he knows what you intend to do with it. Yes when in doubt blame it on the right... i guess greed and money had nothing to do with that. i guess we can also blame conservatives becasue profits is what rules in todays industry, the more you can make the more you get paid... becasue that is strictly a conservative value, i mean liberals don't own major companies do they.. they would never share in those dirty conservative values... I guess history is all wrong as well, it seems to be a concerted effort liberals and conservatives each tried to increase our trade with China... with the highlight being with Justin in 2016... Is Canada negotiating a free trade agreement with China? – The Council of Canadians Canada–China relations - Wikipedia Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Dougie93 Posted July 3, 2023 Report Posted July 3, 2023 31 minutes ago, Contrarian said: Yes, I agree is never too late to see the light as to which path helps you. I have gotten everything I have ever prayed for in life, many times over I have run to the banks of the Red Sea and prayed for miracles, over & over and He has answered the God of the Hebrews is protecting me Deus ex machina Quote
BeaverFever Posted July 4, 2023 Report Posted July 4, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Army Guy said: Yes when in doubt blame it on the right... i guess greed and money had nothing to do with that. i guess we can also blame conservatives becasue profits is what rules in todays industry, the more you can make the more you get paid... becasue that is strictly a conservative value, i mean liberals don't own major companies do they.. they would never share in those dirty conservative values... I guess history is all wrong as well, it seems to be a concerted effort liberals and conservatives each tried to increase our trade with China... with the highlight being with Justin in 2016... Is Canada negotiating a free trade agreement with China? – The Council of Canadians Canada–China relations - Wikipedia At the time of the great outsourcing globalization rush, the right and centrists were the champions of globalization and offshoring while the left and labour unions were opposed. Sorry but it’s a fact. And as I’ve said a hundred times over, Clinton, Chretien and Martin were economic conservatives. After the Great outsourcing and technology transfer of the 90s and 2000s happened at the behest of the Right, the Centrists and the business lobby, western countries become increasingly dependent on countries like China for basic necessities from prescription drugs to manufactured goods and electronics. The necessity for trade with China became an accepted fact of life that EVERY party has had to deal with since. The business community had invested billions of dollars over several decades reconfiguring their entire business model and long term corporate strategy around offshoring to places like China, you can’t just undo that with a snap of your fingers. Thanks to the Right and Centrists, by the early 2000s dependence on trade with China had become “just the way things are now, like it or not”. And the Right and the Centre liked it while the “left” such as Unions and the NDP mostly resigned to it as unescapable reality. Politicians and parties on the centre and right are only NOW beginning to admit that perhaps outsourcing everything to China wasn’t such a wise idea but many in the business community are still not ready to kill their golden goose. Business people still wield considerable influence over government and public opinion and many industries and companies couldn’t de-globalize or re-shore their business even if they wanted to because their business would no longer be viable without the peasant labour and lax regulation of these third world regimes and authoritarian states. So now in this globalized world we have this thing called “limited war” where we build up military resources against China while still pursuing new trade deals with them and actively provide weapons to Ukraine to kill Russian soldiers while still allowing many of our companies to trade and do business in Russia Edited July 4, 2023 by BeaverFever 1 1 Quote
August1991 Posted July 5, 2023 Report Posted July 5, 2023 On 6/30/2023 at 3:25 PM, Army Guy said: Every Canadian is entitled to an opinion, including you... What do you think the consequences of leaving NATO would be. Hard to have a foreign policy with no means to implement or enforce it...how would that effect our trade, technology transfers, what other defensive agreements do we leave ? Not that we have a global reputation but that is something else to consider. And do we even need a military ? ArmyGuy, NATO was created to defeat the Soviet Union. In 1989 mission accomplished - fr the good of us all. At first, in the 1990s, I too was suspicious. I wanted NATO to expand to Poland and the Baltic (formerly East Prussia)- despite what older people said to me. I realise now that I was wrong. ===== Nowadays, NATO is a method for an elite in Washington DC to exercise power (control). It reminds me of the elite in Vienna and Berlin in 1914. Quote
August1991 Posted July 5, 2023 Report Posted July 5, 2023 On 7/2/2023 at 5:17 PM, Contrarian said: Still a vital alliance for Canada's security. While the Soviet Union may no longer exist, it is crucial to recognize that new threats to our security have emerged, including China, Russia, and terrorism. NATO plays a pivotal role in providing a collective defense mechanism that deters these threats and ensures our safety. Leaving NATO would significantly weaken Canada's position in the world..... Not going to happen. ? 1. New threats? Then let's create a new alliance. 2. Weaken our position? Have you seen how other States have responded to this war between Russia-Ukraine? Quote
August1991 Posted July 5, 2023 Report Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) On 7/3/2023 at 6:03 PM, Army Guy said: Actually it has everything to do with NATO, it was an Article 5 mission declared after the sept 11 attacks on the US...It does not surprise me that a lot of Canadians do not know the history about this conflict, i mean we as a nation were contributing troops and funding there for 14 plus years, we built major paved Highways 100's of KM long , a major dam and hydro project, thousands of wells, sewage drains, dozens of fire stations, repaired hospitals, police stations. Our troops donated fire trucks and ambulances, school supplies, children's winter cloths, tones of candy, out of their own pockets... .... Army Guy, I agree and disagree. Using NATO, Bush Jnr tried to get us involved in Iraq. Chretien said no. For better or worse, we got involved in Afghanistan. ======= But let's be honest, in Sep 2001, did Afghanistan attack a member of NATO? ==== As for this whole "we'll modernise the Afghans... ", BS. My opinion at the time (and now) is that our soldiers were there simply to show the Taliban never to harbour people who attack America. That's it, that's all. Come home safely. We Canadians lost about 100 souls in this mission. To me, they chose this occupation. Edited July 5, 2023 by August1991 Quote
myata Posted July 5, 2023 Report Posted July 5, 2023 Putin's, and Xi's wet dream is for NATO to vanish in thin smoke.. like what would be one other thing that he's absolutely terrified of and holding him back? Nah, nothing. Some minds just have to be tuned up to his miasmas, like those satellite antennas. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
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