Taxpayer funded drag queen camp for 13-year-olds in Winnipeg

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

1. So obviously we should cancel it then. 

2. ...they can always look at funding on a program by program later. but if people are paying for it and not getting a say then why pay for it at all?

3. Not to mention it's fueling the frictions that lead to violence right now.

1. How does that conclusion follow from me explaining that it's arms-length funding?

2. Ah ok.  So you want public input into how or whether things are funded.  How would that work though?  And what is the difference between that and commercial entertainment that follows the market?  What is going to happen to things like Opera and such?

3. Ok we already talked about this.  I have nothing to add to my previous points.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. How does that conclusion follow from me explaining that it's arms-length funding?

 

Pretty simple.  If we can't control the funds and it's hurting our society then end it. Period.

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2. Ah ok.  So you want public input into how or whether things are funded.  How would that work though?

The easiest and most effective way is direct funding - members of the public can directly fund what they believe in and the gov't stays out of it. Nobody's saying "no more drag thing training'.  The theatre can put out a go fund me and the public can decide if that kind of thing is worth the money.

Super easy - and nobody funds things they don't agree with.

 

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3. Ok we already talked about this.  I have nothing to add to my previous points.

Ahhh yes - you don't care about violence or kids being attacked.  So you said my bad.

but that's just proof that theres' people like you out there with no moral compass. Why on earth should anyone with moral values be forced to fund stuff you like?  IF you like this kind of thing fund it yourself.

That's the fairest way to do it.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

1.  If we can't control the funds and it's hurting our society then end it. Period.

2. The easiest and most effective way is direct funding - members of the public can directly fund what they believe in and the gov't stays out of it. Nobody's saying "no more drag thing training'.  The theatre can put out a go fund me and the public can decide if that kind of thing is worth the money.

3. Super easy - and nobody funds things they don't agree with.

4. ...people like you out there with no moral compass.  

5. That's the fairest way to do it.

1. Ok - there's a case for ending arms-length funding and... well I see your #2 so that answers it.
2. Ok, well that's an answer: END government funding of the arts.  That's fine but it would close most every theatre in the country that isn't selling tourist-style shows like Harry Potter etc.  But fair.

I absolutely disagree that we should cut funding for the arts.  If we do, we should also cut funding for sports, like hockey Canada, the olympics and the rest - to be consistent and fair.

3. You're starting to convince me.  An Amish no-sports-no-theatre-no-culture Canada would be boring but I wouldn't have to read about outrage from the boondocks anymore.

4. My moral compass is fine.

5. There's still lots of things I would be against funding, non-cultural... like certain businesses but ok.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I absolutely disagree that we should cut funding for the arts.

Yes but i like cutting funding for the arts and you don't get to cancel what i think is a good idea. 

You see Michael - that's why my idea of sitting down and having reasonable discussions looking for common ground and compromise makes more sense in the long run. But as you think that's not such a good idea. Which is fine. This works too.

Anyway we're not talking about 'cutting funding' - the public can still directly fund whatever it thinks is worth it. We're just eliminating the middleman and making it a little more fair.

6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. You're starting to convince me.  An Amish no-sports-no-theatre-no-culture Canada would be boring but I wouldn't have to read about outrage from the boondocks anymore.

Oh there'd be plenty of sports.  Turns out canadians really do like sports and are more than happy to spend the money on keeping it going.  that's the beauty of direct funding - everything people actually like will still be there.

So lots of sports actually.  AND you woudn't have to read about the outrage or be asked if you'd like to have rational conversations about issues or any of that nonsense.

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>My moral compass is fine.

Yeah - pointing 'down' isn't fine.

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. There's still lots of things I would be against funding, non-cultural... like certain businesses but ok.

Businesses like 16 billion dollar battery factories?  Hey i'm with you.  But - one thing at a time i guess.

[Moonbox]

Sports like hockey would barely exist without subsidizes.  I think I spend something like $2500 a year to play twice a week, and those are all on municipally owned and taxpayer funded rinks.  

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

1. Yes but i like cutting funding for the arts and you don't get to cancel what i think is a good idea. 

2. But as you think that's not such a good idea.  

3. Anyway we're not talking about 'cutting funding' - the public can still directly fund whatever it thinks is worth it. We're just eliminating the middleman and making it a little more fair.

4. Businesses Like 16 billion dollar battery factories?  Hey i'm with you.  But - one thing at a time i guess.

1. You're absolutely correct.  It goes into the mix with all ideas.

2. Where did I say that?  We're discussing it now, but there's nowhere else to go.  Discussions do end, at the agree to disagree point.

3. Cutting PUBLIC funding.

4. Ditto.

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Sports like hockey would barely exist without subsidizes.  I think I spend something like $2500 a year to play twice a week, and those are all on municipally owned and taxpayer funded rinks. 

Of course they would.  THey'd exist just fine.   If the municipality didn't fund them then they'd form a not for profit and donations and sponsorships from businesses would. My mom and grandfather had hockey and curling all their lives growing up in a little town in manitoba with maybe 50 people living in it and no 'municipal' money.

Tell you what - lets do it and we'll see if hockey survives or 'drag queen thing training' does

 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

2. Where did I say that? 

 

At the very beginning. As i noted previously - you had a choice, and you chose not to discuss it.  And i don't think we're really discussing it now, i did come into this looking to share ideas but i realize that's a waste of time with both you specifically and with the left in general.  We both know  your 'discussion' here has been dishonest. The whole "but it's theatre' charade, pretending i didn't actually raise the issue of taxpayers funding it when i did many times, saying you don't care if violence increases in our society, etc.

And what you're seeing in our society is people getting fed up with trying to be civil when the other side isn't interested. ANd for many the recourse is either violence or simply looking for political leadership that will shut down the stuff we don't like.  Because yes - in fact we CAN cancel things you like.

PP is going to be the next prime minister. Two major polls this week have him polling into majority territory. And the worst is yet to come on the economy and issues dear to canadians.  And he listens to people like me, and people like me will be telling him that we're not interested in the dishonest games played by people like you,

So yeah theatre funding can go on the block for chopping.   Maybe we'll ask that the money go to support local gun ranges.  A number of other things will likely go that way too.

Just remember - you had a choice to have an honest conversation. But you choose not to, and not just with this conversation, but many i've seen you in. So when the other side stops talking and starts doing and doesn't want to hear you, remember that was a decision you made.

 

[WestCanMan]

And now, thanks to a Trudeau judge, if the people who work at the theatre get turned on by the young boys dressed in drag, and ask them for sex, it's ok. They don't have to go to jail. 

"90 days in jail is too much for a dude who just tries to bang some kids." - LPOC

Edited June 16, 2023 by WestCanMan

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

And now, thanks to a Trudeau judge, if the people who work at the theatre get turned on by the young boys dressed in drag, and ask them for sex, it's ok. They don't have to go to jail. 

"90 days in jail is too much for a dude who just tries to bang some kids." - LPOC

Well according to the pride organizers kids like kink and stuff. It's like playing with a clown! But with penises!

[Michael Hardner]

24 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

1. At the very beginning. 

2. And i don't think we're really discussing it now...

3. And what you're seeing in our society is people getting fed up with trying to be civil when the other side isn't interested. ANd for many the recourse is either violence or simply looking for political leadership that will shut down the stuff we don't like.  Because yes - in fact we CAN cancel things you like.

4. PP is going to be the next prime minister.

5. ... people like me will be telling him that we're not interested in the dishonest games played by people like you,

6.   Maybe we'll ask that the money go to support local gun ranges.  A number of other things will likely go that way too.

7. Just remember - you had a choice to have an honest conversation.  

 

1. Ok, well obviously I had a change of heart because... well, look at us now.
2. huh ?  What are we doing then ?
3. Well, sure, via violence.  That's fascism and you're welcome to it.  "We have no choice... we must be violent to stop this"... Nice discussion you embraced there.
4. I'm not afraid of the will of the people.
5.  Do you think that he's going to eliminate arm's length funding for the arts ?  Cut the CBC to zero ?  Eliminate heritage Canada and all its projects ?  Honest question.
6. You're not interested in compromise, clearly.  As I said, money goes to projects I do support and sometimes to those I don't.  You want to take money from things you don't like and fund things you like.  Surely you see the difference between us.
7. You keep characterizing our conversation as 'dishonest' while simultaneously saying we're NOT discussing, and saying that violence will be a legitimate next step if you don't get what you want.

So - we're on different pages here.

You think I'm being dishonest.

So is this chat done ?  Hope so.  But you tell me if there's any room for continuing...
 

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

7. You keep characterizing our conversation as 'dishonest' while simultaneously saying we're NOT discussing, and saying that violence will be a legitimate next step if you don't get what you want.
 

Is that what i said? This is what i mean - dishonest.

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Is that what i said? This is what i mean - dishonest.

So .... putting this together, you should really make it your personal anthem...

"We will cancel you by force if you don't do what we say"

 

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And what you're seeing in our society is people getting fed up with trying to be civil when the other side isn't interested. ANd for many the recourse is either violence or simply looking for political leadership that will shut down the stuff we don't like.  Because yes - in fact we CAN cancel things you like

 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Of course they would.  THey'd exist just fine.   If the municipality didn't fund them then they'd form a not for profit and donations and sponsorships from businesses would. My mom and grandfather had hockey and curling all their lives growing up in a little town in manitoba with maybe 50 people living in it and no 'municipal' money.

I suspect you have no idea how the nearest arenas and curling clubs were funded 50+ years ago.  While I don't support pro teams getting federal/provincial/municipal money, I do appreciate reasonable efforts to make sure kids don't grow up to become fatties.  

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I suspect you have no idea how the nearest arenas and curling clubs were funded 50+ years ago.  While I don't support pro teams getting federal/provincial/municipal money, I do appreciate reasonable efforts to make sure kids don't grow up to become fatties.  

Not to mention small time theatre having a place to learn, and to foster future actors, performers, drag queens and kings, dancers etc. etc. etc. for the good of culture and the entertainment 'industry'.   

[Moonbox]

On the list of things to subsidize, I'm usually on-board for getting kids into activities that keeps them away from drugs/trouble/teen-pregnancy/becoming internet neets - as long as the costs are reasonable. 

[CdnFox]

34 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I suspect you have no idea how the nearest arenas and curling clubs were funded 50+ years ago.

I know precisely how they were.  ANd i know how they were funded for 100 years before that.

Just because a municipality did something one way once doesn't mean that there's not lots of ways to do the same thing

If the gov't doesn't suppy it - others will. They will raise teh money in the community, businesses will jump in, it will still happen.  It has ALWAYS been that way.

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  While I don't support pro teams getting federal/provincial/municipal money, I do appreciate reasonable efforts to make sure kids don't grow up to become fatties.  

I myself am pro-non-fatty. I would probably be one of the first to kick in for a local facility.

That doesn't change anything. The community would recognize the value of it and would make it happen, as has ALWAYS been the case.  there's nothing magic about the gov't doing it.

And if the community sees the value in sponsoring "Drag thing training camp" then that will get funded too. but not by me.

I guess you could say i favour giving kids a chance to shine rather than sparkle

(I am generally pro theatre tho, i might kick in for youth theatre if it wasn't doing sex training for kids).

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well according to the pride organizers kids like kink and stuff. It's like playing with a clown! But with penises!

"YAAAYYYYY! DILDO THE CLOWN IS HERE!!!!!!"

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

 

And if the community sees the value in sponsoring "Drag thing training camp" then that will get funded too. but not by me.

 

But really, as long as your local taxes subsidize cultural activities you are in the same boat no?

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

I know precisely how they were.  ANd i know how they were funded for 100 years before that.

Sure you do.  

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Just because a municipality did something one way once doesn't mean that there's not lots of ways to do the same thing

True enough, but whether they're better or worse is another thing.

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

If the gov't doesn't suppy it - others will. They will raise teh money in the community, businesses will jump in, it will still happen.  It has ALWAYS been that way.

Things like hockey arenas are large capital expenditures, and money-pits.  Few businesses are excited about these sorts of ventures.  The best we usually see is a corporate sponsor helping with construction and with managing the facilities on-lease/contract, which at least gets rids us of the prospect of unionized rink rats. 

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

I guess you could say i favour giving kids a chance to shine rather than sparkle

(I am generally pro theatre tho, i might kick in for youth theatre if it wasn't doing sex training for kids).

Sex training...right.  

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

 Sex training...right.  

This is a poster who accuses others of being deceitful.

Put them on ignore, and don't indulge them when you're bored as I did.

Free advice...

[CdnFox]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But really, as long as your local taxes subsidize cultural activities you are in the same boat no?

That's not taxes. The community raises money from willing donors and charges fees for use from those who use it. So much different boat.

If there's not enough interest to make it happen then it shouldn't be happening, and if there is they'll raise the money without the gov't

[CdnFox]

25 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Sure you do. 

Well as we've long established - i'm not saying i'm smart, but i'm definitely smarter than you

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True enough, but whether they're better or worse is another thing.

Well that is the discussion.  Or at least it should be but as we've seen the left really isn't interested in the discussion.  Its clearly the more fair way to do things so i suspect that'll be the way it goes. Less funding for this kind of stuff, no funding for the cbc, etc.

 

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Things like hockey arenas are large capital expenditures, and money-pits.  Few businesses are excited about these sorts of ventures.

You are patently insane. MANY large businesses sponsor the arenas and sport events. They even sell the rights to the names of the arenas in some cases now.

But at the end of the day the communities will want those facilities and they'll pay for them one way or another.. or they don't and they won't.

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  The best we usually see is a corporate sponsor helping with construction and with managing the facilities on-lease/contract, which at least gets rids us of the prospect of unionized rink rats. 

Well you're not terribly innovative or talented so.....

Private funds have been building sporting arenas since the coliseum in rome. it's nothing new, it's a lot of work but it's perfectly doabile IF the community wants one and if they don't well - there you go.

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Sex training...right.  

Are we back to denial?

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

1. The community raises money from willing donors and charges fees for use from those who use it. So much different boat.

2. If there's not enough interest to make it happen then it shouldn't be happening, and if there is they'll raise the money without the gov't

1. There are community grants for the arts too though.
2. Sure but that applies to a lot of things, and to business also.

[CdnFox]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is a poster who accuses others of being deceitful.

Put them on ignore, and don't indulge them when you're bored as I did.

Free advice...

Typical leftie.  "I behaved badly and he called me on it, so now i stick my head in the sand so i don't have to hear things i don't like".

Yeah - not dishonest at all.