August1991 Posted May 16, 2023 Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 Engineers find methods that work. Scientists test methods. ===== True, correlation is not causation. But if it works, then it is good. Engineers often use rules of thumb. Scientists are curious to know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 16, 2023 Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 Engineering is applied science, with extra margin for safety, reliability, etc. Also, scientists usually don't get sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 Richard Feynman described this far better in a lecture about the Mayans. The Mayans could predict a solar eclipse - but they had no model of the solar system. ==== Feynman also noted that we only have three writings of the Mayans - one is in Dresden, of all places. And as Feynman noted, "Imagine if all we know of our history is three books." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Engineering is applied science... I disagree. ==== Engineers find methods that work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 16, 2023 Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, August1991 said: Engineers find methods that work. Depends on the discipline and application. Engineers are constrained by more practical considerations than are scientists. Engineering methods are born from experience/experiment in the real world as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Depends on the discipline and application. Engineers are constrained by more practical considerations than are scientists. Engineering methods are born from experience/experiment in the real world as well. Discipline? Application? I disagree. ===== Current artificial Intelligence (even generative) is engineering. It seems to work now. It is based on a rule-of-thumb - but a thumb that changes shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 16, 2023 Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 58 minutes ago, August1991 said: Discipline? Application? I disagree. There are many fields in science and engineering....theoretical and practical. R&D push beyond limits and rules by design. "Rules of thumb" are born of application experience. Quote ===== Current artificial Intelligence (even generative) is engineering. It seems to work now. It is based on a rule-of-thumb - but a thumb that changes shape. Depends on the application...the underlying algorithms use processing (math), large data sets (experience), and learned error correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted May 16, 2023 Report Share Posted May 16, 2023 Scientists come up with concepts, engineers make them work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 (edited) On 5/16/2023 at 11:31 AM, Contrarian said: While the scientist was busy trying to reach new heights of knowledge, the engineer already brought a ladder and reached the top! ? ChatGPT is engineering. It is not science. As Feynman described the Mayans, they could predict eclipses - but they could not explain them. Edited May 19, 2023 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 Feynman also made a point that has always bothered me. We only have three documents from the Mayans. (One is in Dresden, of all places.) Imagine a society where all we know of it is three documents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 22, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2023 (edited) How do we discover the truth? ==== Feynman also made this remark: Birds have found a method to fly. We humans also fly - but we don't fly the way birds fly. Edited July 22, 2023 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted July 23, 2023 Report Share Posted July 23, 2023 On 5/16/2023 at 8:11 AM, Aristides said: Scientists come up with concepts, engineers try to make them work. Toy train sets with 370 degrees of track in each kit Kitchen utensils that break if you squeeze the handle Cars that explode in flames if rear ended by a shopping cart. Toy tanks with 5 1.5V motors and lights in them and only 4 batteries Glues you can't use because they stick your fingers together before anything else. We are, we are, we are the Engineers We can, we can, we can drink 40 beers (UBC chant) ... and then go to work. I forgot - fuel cells that can take men to the Moon but 55 years later are still a decade away from taking you down to the 7-11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2023 (edited) On 7/23/2023 at 7:38 PM, herbie said: ... Kitchen utensils that break if you squeeze the handle ... Disagree.. ==== Birds fly. We humans now also fly - but differently. We use airplanes Computers will think as humans - but differently Edited September 16, 2023 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted September 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2023 I am intrigued about this. Some people observe/learn patterns: they are Engineers Other people question patterns: they are Mathematicians 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted November 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 How did we learn? By the engineering method - or the scientific method? ---- If one year were 1 millimeter, then 100 millimeters would be a century - and my arm's length about 1000 years. Dinosaurs? They'd be somewhere in Vermont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 4 hours ago, August1991 said: How did we learn? By the engineering method - or the scientific method? ---- You are touching on something that goes down to the differences and how people think, and maybe how they are constructed. I studied with mathematicians and engineers, the former being more like philosophers and the latter being more like executives or builders. And I think that a Hegelian mechanic makes a group with similar characteristics, such as the ability to do calculus, and give them personal characteristics that drives their discipline forward. Similarly, with religion, he have the theologists and those that wonder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... versus the strong moralists who tell you that Friday is the day for eating fish, or the nuns that rap your knuckles with a ruler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 On 7/23/2023 at 4:38 PM, herbie said: Toy train sets with 370 degrees of track in each kit Kitchen utensils that break if you squeeze the handle Cars that explode in flames if rear ended by a shopping cart. Toy tanks with 5 1.5V motors and lights in them and only 4 batteries Glues you can't use because they stick your fingers together before anything else. We are, we are, we are the Engineers We can, we can, we can drink 40 beers (UBC chant) ... and then go to work. I forgot - fuel cells that can take men to the Moon but 55 years later are still a decade away from taking you down to the 7-11 Fuel cells can easily take you down to the 7-11, if you can provide the fuel for them. The average car buyer doesn't have NASA's budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted November 18, 2023 Report Share Posted November 18, 2023 Fuel cells for toys... once the engineers scale them down to fit and marketers realize they can sell those little CO2 cartridges full of hydrogen for $10 each! Ones that need to be replaced before dinner on Christmas Day like the old zinc batteries when I was a kid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted December 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2023 Hey guys, Interesting discussion. Be thankful that we live in a country with a federal state/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 On 11/18/2023 at 10:19 AM, Aristides said: Fuel cells can easily take you down to the 7-11, if you can provide the fuel for them. The average car buyer doesn't have NASA's budget. Same was said about solar panels you can now find in the discount section at Crappy Tire and 48 packs of AA lithium batteries at Costco for what those old zinc ones cost for 2 when I was young. Those 9V square batteries that powered you transistor radio almost all day at the beach for about $20 in today money, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 On 1/1/2024 at 1:47 PM, herbie said: Same was said about solar panels you can now find in the discount section at Crappy Tire and 48 packs of AA lithium batteries at Costco for what those old zinc ones cost for 2 when I was young. Those 9V square batteries that powered you transistor radio almost all day at the beach for about $20 in today money, The issue with fuel cells isn't the fuel cells, it's the economical production of enough green hydrogen to fuel them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted January 4 Author Report Share Posted January 4 54 minutes ago, Aristides said: The issue with fuel cells isn't the fuel cells, it's the economical production of enough green hydrogen to fuel them. Fuel Cells? Solar panels? ==== Engineers -using rule of thumb- built aqueducts. Scientists brought us to, uh, climate science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 17 hours ago, Aristides said: The issue with fuel cells isn't the fuel cells, it's the economical production of enough green hydrogen to fuel them. So MAKE IT. That was exactly the point, stop with the "it ain't there Right F^cking Now so it never can be" argument with alternative energy solutions. Your Grandpa didn't have electricity or telephones, now you can't live without hydro and a phone in your pocket. He didn't have sidewalk, paved lighted streets or underground utilities, now they won't even let you build without those. The economics works both ways: DEMAND also increases SUPPLY not just vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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