News from Scotland

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Regional breakup? I was talking about Brexit. Nothing regional about that.

The British people chose to sever ties with the EU. That means they are no longer beholden to the whims of the EU Council. Giving the finger to the Germans. The old-boys in pubs out in those remote sheep-farming communities all raised a glass of lukewarm brown ale, and bellowed out "God Save the Queen".

 

And Scotland said f*** this...

It's not like the UK didn't benefit from it.  So the pissed offedness of it comes off as dumb.

 

 

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

And Scotland said f*** this...

It's not like the UK didn't benefit from it.  So the pissed offedness of it comes off as dumb.

 

 

Majority vote wins. Pretty sure that's how democracy works.

[herbie]

Orkney residents savour idea of joining Norway

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/04/orkney-residents-savour-idea-of-joining-norway

[OftenWrong]

On 7/5/2023 at 11:32 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Britain has profound long-term economic problems it needs to address. Whether the UK in its current form survives Brexit remains to be seen

Brits are a tough people and they are used to it. Being essentially on an island means you have to be self-sufficient to survive. That's the way it was a long time ago, and is perhaps the very reason Brits became the number-one superpower. They had military superiority. Built some friggin big boats. Then came the industrial revolution.

They make their own cars and buses. Harrier Jets, even.

Not to mention the Brits gave us radar. In fact the whole realm of radio and microwave communications comes from a few people like James Clerk Maxwell. He was a scotsman.

And you want to make it sound like they need Europe, they need Germany to function?

[Iceni warrior]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:53 AM, OftenWrong said:

Majority vote wins. Pretty sure that's how democracy works.

Recent polls are running at about 60% in favour of rejoining the EU. Will democracy recognise this now and respond to the will of the people?

[OftenWrong]

21 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Recent polls are running at about 60% in favour of rejoining the EU. Will democracy recognise this now and respond to the will of the people?

The only poll that matters is the one they already had, which came after years of political debate.

 

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The only poll that matters is the one they already had, which came after years of political debate.

 

Interesting that you seem to want to discount one pole and not the other?

So the vote that came after years of debate is more valid than the pole that came after the reality of separation?

 

[OftenWrong]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Interesting that you seem to want to discount one pole and not the other?

So the vote that came after years of debate is more valid than the pole that came after the reality of separation?

 

Yes, because a vote is a fully vetted process that hopefully is not rigged. UK voting system is not rigged.

I can show public opinion polls on anything. Doesn't make them reliable or valid, especially in todays politically charged atmosphere.

They discussed Brexit for years and this is the outcome.

That's what my earlier post means. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

They discussed Brexit for years and this is the outcome.

I also accept democratic processses, including the election of politicians I disapprove of.

Don't you think that the public sphere has its problems though?

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Interesting that you seem to want to discount one pole and not the other?

@OftenWrong but all of a sudden the public and the media were very smart right?

It's weird because... You have accused the media of supporting the elite, and the Canadian public for one you said ...

"Canadians are dumb as donkeys following a carrot on a stick."

But if you like the result, then you backwards engineer the process to be sound. Very odd.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[OftenWrong]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

@OftenWrong but all of a sudden the public and the media were very smart right?

It's weird because... You have accused the media of supporting the elite, and the Canadian public for one you said ...

"Canadians are dumb as donkeys following a carrot on a stick."

But if you like the result, then you backwards engineer the process to be sound. Very odd.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I explained the vote was the real poll, not some opinion poll that could have been posted by Guardian. The user who mentioned this didn't even reference what poll they were talking about, but you appear to have bought into it anyway. I said I am skeptical of polls, while a real vote is legit. That time came and went.

You want to start the process to request another referendum, go right ahead. It will have to go through the same steps and due process as any legitimate referendum vote should. That's how the system works.

[Aristides]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yes, because a vote is a fully vetted process that hopefully is not rigged. UK voting system is not rigged.

I can show public opinion polls on anything. Doesn't make them reliable or valid, especially in todays politically charged atmosphere.

They discussed Brexit for years and this is the outcome.

That's what my earlier post means. 

 

Britain has the worst  performing economy and highest inflation rate in Europe since BREXIT. Most of them know they shot themselves in the foot.

[Michael Hardner]

38 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Britain has the worst  performing economy and highest inflation rate in Europe since BREXIT. Most of them know they shot themselves in the foot.

But Great Britain invented the Harrier Jet and has 'great' in the name ?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. 

You hold me to a higher standard, and I appreciate that but it also means I look more closely at your posts.

I think that somebody has to stop people from exploiting pointless nationalism to get suckers to vote for them.  Maybe the way to do that is for smart people to start calling out how stupid it is.  

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think that somebody has to stop people from exploiting pointless nationalism to get suckers to vote for them.  Maybe the way to do that is for smart people to start calling out how stupid it is.  

Whatever gives you a sense of purpose in life. I am simply an observer.

Nationalism is a foil against globalism. Most people prefer self-determination as opposed to being ruled by disenfranchised elite. At least give us the franchised elite.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Whatever gives you a sense of purpose in life. I am simply an observer.

Nationalism is a foil against globalism. Most people prefer self-determination as opposed to being ruled by disenfranchised elite. At least give us the franchised elite.

Ok, both ideas are abstractions that are only useful in a limited context. Talk about Nations if you're talking about Nation versus Nation relations I guess.  But the abstractions of nation states and Global alliances should only be used with the full knowledge that these are thin links, and the real economic and cultural forces step over them easily.

It might be better to talk about the actual people that were either helping, or trading off as pawns in these large discussions, right?

 

[Iceni warrior]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:31 PM, OftenWrong said:

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I explained the vote was the real poll, not some opinion poll that could have been posted by Guardian. The user who mentioned this didn't even reference what poll they were talking about, but you appear to have bought into it anyway. I said I am skeptical of polls, while a real vote is legit. That time came and went.

You want to start the process to request another referendum, go right ahead. It will have to go through the same steps and due process as any legitimate referendum vote should. That's how the system works.

The user who mentioned this said polls plural.

Dissatisfaction with the reality of Brexit has been rising steadily ever since the referendum and is currently hovering around 60% wishing to rejoin in multiple polls.

Not that we would ever get the sweet deal we had before back.

We wouldn't get to keep the pound or get back the rebate Margaret Thatcher negotiated and it's highly likely we'd have to join the Schengen zone.

The most likely outcome is a return to the single market which would involve some concessions on freedom of movement and a large annual payment.

The hope that leaving the EU would lead to us to gain control of our own borders has been dashed with small boats arriving daily in greater numbers.