Are Trans Women. . . Women?

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Personally, I don't find fat women sexually attractive. But I would never say a fat woman is not a woman, just because I wouldn't have sex with one

Completely different logic, but okay.

[Americana Antifa]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

Completely different logic, but okay.

You said you wouldn't date trans women. Alright, that's fine. But that doesn't change the fact that they are women.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

But that doesn't change the fact that they are women.

Yeah. Trans women. 

[Americana Antifa]

2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Yeah. Trans women. 

Yes. There are white women, black women, blonde women, brunette women, cis women, trans women, many different kinds of ladies.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Americana Antifa said:

Yes. There are white women, black women, blonde women, brunette women, cis women, trans women, many different kinds of ladies.

All but one, being biological, but thanks for playing along.

[Americana Antifa]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

All but one, being biological, but thanks for playing along.

Again, "woman" is not a biological category. It's a gender category.

The biological sex categories are male, female, and intersex.

[Guest]

What you're essentially trying to say, is if a woman was passable enough to fool me into the bedroom, if I found out she has not reassigned her gender surgically, me being upset she lied to me, is somehow something wrong with me as she is no different. 

This is a blatant lie.

Be proud of who you are. Be trans. Be beautiful, be gorgeous. Be fierce, but don't try to tell me there are no differences, when there clearly are.

[Guest]

Differences should be celebrated. I blew a drag queen kisses as she called me handsome as I made my way past an outdoor show. 

I love everyone. I just don't do playing pretend.

Be proud of who you are.

Trans women identify as women. Should be respected as women. 

But to equate them to being identical. This is delusion.

[Boges]

It's all semantics no? 

Female vs Woman 

Trans women aren't female, but they're women?

Most people don't make that distinction so calling it Transphobic or ignorant is actually working against the movement to have trans people accepted in society. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

"Trans women are women" is an affirmation of support, nothing more.  It's not a statement to be taken literally.  We do fine in this society tolerating statements we find to be ridiculous and letting them go.  This is no different.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's not a statement to be taken literally. 

I don't think most will make that distinction, unless it is mentioned.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

We do fine in this society tolerating statements we find to be ridiculous and letting them go.  This is no different.

Uh, you can get canceled and forced to apologize or be forced to claw your way back into a career for offending certain social groups.

Sorry, but activists behind this group aren't reputed for just "letting go" of language they don't like.

Not having a clear message, just creates fear to challenge anything in the message to begin with.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. I don't think most will make that distinction, unless it is mentioned.

2. Uh, you can get canceled and forced to apologize or be forced to claw your way back into a career for offending certain social groups.

3. Sorry, but activists ...

4. Not having a clear message, just creates fear to challenge anything in the message to begin with.

1. I think most people know that trans women don't necessarily have vaginas.
2. If you state that "Trans women are NOT women" then you're doing the opposite of supporting, you're making an anti-trans statement.  Just as the opposite isn't a statement of biological truth.  The "claw back into a career" is an overstatement bordering on intellectual dishonesty.  People can be anti-trans, even ignorantly and adamantly so, and keep their jobs.
3. "Activists" is a nebulous group.  You can't quote any crazy person who makes pro-trans statements, label them an 'activist' and then make a statement about the movement in general.  Any more than actual Neo-Nazis say anything about the Conservative movement.
4. Yes, let's be clear: WHO is saying something.  WHAT are they saying.  WHAT does it mean.

Enough of this guilt by association and pleading extreme cases stuff... 

Let's be real.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

you're doing the opposite of supporting

Why do I need to support? I am a minority, and was never supported my entire life. I grew up in violent slums and had to find my own way out. Where are the protests for the shootings I had to witness, or violence I had to see as a child?

I don't owe any group any support, nor am I entitled to any. I just treat everyone with respect. Heck, I am not even entitled to that.

What kind of a group will expect me to speak to them in specific language, and not question a thing they push your way, regardless of how ridiculous that it is? 

Trans women aren't biological women. They identify as women, get surgery and treatment to try to look like women, and heck, if it makes them feel better I don't hesitate to address them as women. But to claim they are no different, has no biological basis. You're simply being polite.

This is as real as it gets.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

the movement in general

What if the common denominator, is that anything that isn't pro trans, gets violently shut down, cue the histrionic fit on the news, social media and demanding an apology?

What if what is being said is being said by doctors, who have heavy handed experience?

I don't know, I like to know the good the bad the ugly, on anything I learn about. 

When things sound too one sided, I call propaganda.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Why do I need to support?  

 

I never said you did.  But the opposite of support isn't ambivalence, it's put down...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But the opposite of support isn't ambivalence

It's not my job to build someone's sense of self.

Know who one is, and stand firmly behind it.

My opinion is irrelevant, if that is the case, just like anyone's opinion on my skin color wouldn't bother me as am insanely proud of who I am and how far I have come.

I don't need support, I stand and have stood on my own just fine.

If someone needs my approval to exist, then their mere existence is on incredibly shaky ground, as the world doesn't care enough about others to put their interests ahead of their own.

[Michael Hardner]

45 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

It's not my job to build someone's sense of self.

Is it your job to put them down?

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Is it your job to put them down?

I don't go around putting down people in real life. I love everyone. 

I don't have a problem with the trans community. 

I have a major problem with someone telling me that a male who hasn't undergone any treatment, that has a beard and still has a male ID is a woman the moment they tell me they are. Me calling them sir at a checkout based on the clear visual cues on their gender, is a travesty, if they had a "she/her" name tag. Like I go out of my way to misgender people, or ever read name tags. 

Yet someone white identifying as black, is ridiculed. Someone white identifying as Korean, and even obtaining surgical procedure to look Korean has their mental state questioned. 

People are free to exist how they see fit. But to feel entitled to people caring about how you feel inside. Good luck to such a person in life.

[Guest]

What boggles my mind, is if God forbid someone died, and someone had to identify their body. 

What do you think will be used to do so? How they feel, or what they were born with?

If they go to a hospital unconscious? 

Are a suspect. 

No amount of treatment will change that. 

Just like my skin color doesn't turn off, and I at times need to accept that someone may check on me a bit more in a store. 

The world isn't all about me. 

Teach kids self love first. Self awareness. Before they are fed any ideology.

[Michael Hardner]

47 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. I don't go around putting down people in real life. I love everyone. 

2. I don't have a problem with the trans community. 

3. I have a major problem with someone telling me that a male who hasn't undergone any treatment, that has a beard and still has a male ID is a woman the moment they tell me they are.

4. Me calling them sir at a checkout based on the clear visual cues on their gender, is a travesty, if they had a "she/her" name tag.

5. Like I go out of my way to misgender people, or ever read name tags. 

6. Yet someone white identifying as black, is ridiculed.

7. But to feel entitled to people caring about how you feel inside. Good luck to such a person in life.

1. Great.  I suggest you behave online as you do in real life then.
2. Also great.
3. Ok, well you are breaking with the trans community there - which is fine, I assume, because you don't "have a problem" with them.  Let's see where this leads.
4. Says who ?  Says you as far as I can tell.
5. You made up that situation, I'm guessing.
6.  So is someone masquerading as "trans" if you haven't followed the tale of the Oakville Teacher in the NY Post.  And anyway, you are bringing up two separate "identity" issues and saying some hypothetical person treats them differently.  Who is said person ? 

If you're making a general comment about "liberal" views then ... ok ... but it's pretty a pretty specific comment about a pretty general persona - "the liberal".  I'm ok with people complaining about "liberals" and "conservatives" but it's a lot like complaining about the weather.

7. You're telling people how to feel here.  Ok.

So if you're "ok" with the trans community, I imagine saying something that is offensive to them - even if there's truth to it - is probably not something you would do.  Thank you.

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 Just like my skin color doesn't turn off, and I at times need to accept that someone may check on me a bit more in a store.  The world isn't all about me. 

Ok but if you don't allow for other Black people to feel differently than you about that situation - who is it about ?  Them ?

[impartialobserver]

exceedingly unpopular, I know, but the trans issue means absolutely nothing to me. Not for or against... just could not care less. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So if you're "ok" with the trans community, I imagine saying something that is offensive to them - even if there's truth to it - is probably not something you would do.  Thank you.

Unless asked, I keep my opinions to myself. 

40 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're telling people how to feel here

People can feel however they wish. My opinion is based on those who need my affirmation. Nothing would change my opinion. There are two genders, and intersex is an anomaly. 

Trans people deserve rights, but aren't entitled for me to see them in the same light as their biological counterparts. 

[blackbird]

There is only one truth and that is what God has given mankind, in English, the King James Bible.  Other languages have God's truth in their languages.  The Scriptures are the final infallible authority on all Biblical and moral matters.

Sola Scriptura,  the Scriptures alone.

Edited March 14, 2023 by blackbird