Are Trans Women. . . Women?

[Perspektiv]

9 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Straight men have no interest in sex with people who have dicks. Nor do gay women. If you believe otherwise you might reexamine your sexual preferences. 

I hate the argument on the far left, demanding us to see them as identical, even if gay.

If a lesbian woman doesn't find male parts on a trans woman attractive, then she is transphobic.

Uh, no. She's gay.

9 hours ago, I am Groot said:

A lot of them simply do not think like women.

I have only known a handful of trans women, and saw hundreds while in Thailand, so my opinion is based on this, and not on a sweeping statement.

 But from what I have seen, the several trans women I have seen seemed to often exaggerate female behavior. 

Of course am sure some do not, but this is what I saw quite a bit of.

9 hours ago, I am Groot said:

They adjourned until the person was removed saying they didn't feel safe

I remember a Dr. Phil episode where you can see he put two antagonists on stage to boost his sinking ratings.

But one of the guests defined women as: "to each their own", which even puzzled Dr. Phil, only to be humiliated by antagonist Matt Walsh's response, in that these activists were trying to appropriate womanhood.

Of course, she was left speechless as she didn't expect her baseless claims to be picked apart.

But as expected, she took to social media to play the victim card, and mention how he mental health had taken a dramatic turn for the worst.

If they can't get you with their aggression (which will scare most as most don't want conflict), then will be quick to point out how unsafe they feel, and how much you damaged their mental health.

If future generations are really that fragile, we don't stand a chance as a society.

I don't care personally, as will be long dead.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Yes. Sexual Marxism.

That's a strange analogy.  It doesn't fit.

It comes across as not understanding something, but - knowing that it has certain attributes - using the term anyway.

[Americana Antifa]

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Thats the thing. It isn't weirdos. It's activists. Some of which with heavy lobbying power, that can and have forced changes in wording, to appease this community.

No different than the fact that very few high profile individuals dare to define the word woman. Not because they don't know, but because of the wrath of those in these said activism groups that could effectively end your career, by labeling you as transphobic and shaming those who continue to patron your business.

Bruh, this is like the "cancel culture" lie. What major figure has had their career ended because they angered these mythological trans activists?

And it's not that they're "forcing" changes in wording. It's that language evolves with culture. They're using new words, like humans have always done, to explain concepts that have entered the mainstream.

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Biologally, one is different.

But they're both still women, yes?

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Plenty do. 

Really? Like, really really? Are you sure you're not just spending too much time on Twitter?

I mean, the whole reason they're called "trans" people is because they were assigned one gender at birth, then transitioned. It's not like they're ignoring the fact that they've had a difference life experience than cis people. 

Can you name any activist or media figure who says there's no difference?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

I mean, the whole reason they're called "trans" people is because they were assigned one gender at birth, then transitioned. It's not like they're ignoring the fact that they've had a difference life experience than cis people.

At what point does a man become a woman?  After they have transitioned, or when they say so?

Trans people should have all the rights society affords anyone, but some things are just facts of their lives. 

Nobody who ever went through puberty as a male should be allowed to enter any sporting event as a women.

When a biological female's rights collide with trans rights, the female's rights should be paramount.

Those last two lines are my opinion, of course.

Being trans should not prevent anyone from being POTUS or Prime Minister, or your doctor or your priest.

[Americana Antifa]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

At what point does a man become a woman?  After they have transitioned, or when they say so?

When they say so. Gender is about self-identity. It's basically just a culture that is assigned to you at birth based on your biological sex. But like any culture based on identity, you can change it. Some males are assigned boy, but decide they identify more as girl.

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Nobody who ever went through puberty as a male should be allowed to enter any sporting event as a women.

So that's actually a more complicated topic. The Olympics started allowing trans athletes in 2004. Since then, exactly zero trans women have won gold medals. The narrative that men are just identifying as women and destroying women's sports is wrong.

The truth is, most sport organizations won't allow trans women to compete unless they've been on hormones long enough that they no longer have an advantage over cis women. And even then, there are certain games that trans women will always have an advantage in, so they're just not allowed.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

When they say so. Gender is about self-identity. It's basically just a culture that is assigned to you at birth based on your biological sex. But like any culture based on identity, you can change it. Some males are assigned boy, but decide they identify more as girl.

So that's actually a more complicated topic. The Olympics started allowing trans athletes in 2004. Since then, exactly zero trans women have won gold medals. The narrative that men are just identifying as women and destroying women's sports is wrong.

The truth is, most sport organizations won't allow trans women to compete unless they've been on hormones long enough that they no longer have an advantage over cis women. And even then, there are certain games that trans women will always have an advantage in, so they're just not allowed.

If it's simply self identity, then society has no responsibility to treat them as anything other than how their biological sex identifies them.

I don't know the medical details of how a man transitions to a women, but I would say a person is a man until they start the process, transitioning during the process, and a woman once the process is complete. 

As far as society's responsibilities towards them go, that is.

I don't know anyone who thinks that men are just identifying as women in order to destroy women's sports.  That doesn't change my basic position, from my last post.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by bcsapper

[Perspektiv]

 

7 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

When they say so. Gender is about self-identity.

Identify as one sees fit. My issue, is that some activists insist that I see this person in the same way that they self-identify. 

The world doesn't care how one feels inside. This is something that these people will struggle with their entire lives, unless they remain in safety bubbles. 

I will respect how you feel, but will not pretend that a man not even going through the trouble of even changing their ID, but rather just highlighting their hair green or pink, and putting pigtails (still pulsing with testosterone), is now a woman.

Uh, no. You're a crossdresser. Express yourself as you see fit. I will call you ma'am as a mean of respect, but anyone with common sense, will assume that this is a cross dresser, or anything but a woman.

13 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

they no longer have an advantage

A biological woman who has gone through puberty, will naturally be at a disadvantage over a transitioning male to female individual who has as well.

They will be taller, larger, have larger muscles, and quicker reflexes. This goes without mentioning the power.

Caitlyn Jenner even recognizes how unfair it would be for her to compete against biological women.

As a male, she was dominating. Take all the estrogen that you want. She has already gone through puberty. She is naturally more powerful than any woman you would put her up against. Hormones won't take away her muscle mass advantage.

You're not speaking in facts, and when putting standards forwards, one must be basing them on facts. On science, on demonstrable evidence. 

To say Caitlyn Jenner is no stronger than an average female athlete her size, is ignoring facts.

100m dash. Women will never compete with men. This isn't sexist. Its factual.

Hussein Bolt at peak condition will outrun any woman you put before him, at equal conditioning.

Male professional hockey players can shoot pucks at 100mph effortlessly. Why can't women? 

You're ignoring basic biology, while playing identity politics.

[Hodad]

J. K. Rowling is making a nuanced point, and that often doesn't go well on social media. "Trans women are women" is, however very social friendly and a manageable hashtag. So right now it's just people talking--or shouting--past each other. 

Like most of you, I'm finding myself falling more on the Rowling side of things. "Trans women are women" is well meaning in terms of how society should treat/respect/tolerate trans people, but it also discounts or diminishes the lived experience of people born as women. 

To illustrate that nuance I sometimes bring up the curious case of Rachel Dolezal. You may remember some years ago she made national news. At the time she was a Black and civil rights activist and the local (Spokane, WA) head of the NAACP chapter. The twist is that she grew up as a blue-eyed, blonde-haired white daughter of white parents. She only identified as Black and had taken some steps to change her appearance to match. She was "passing" as Black. So, is/was she Black?

Her everyday life at that time might have resembled the Black experience in many ways (just as a trans person's might) she certainly doesn't have the full lived experience of a person born Black. I don't think anyone would hashtag "Black transracial women are Black." Frankly, there was not a lot of sympathy for her. There was anger. People viewed her as an impostor and appropriator. And perhaps there should have been more of an attempt to understand and to tolerate. 

And that makes it easier to see Rowling's point. Trans women, no matter how completely they identify as women--and deserve to be treated as women--they don't have the full lived experience of a person born female--whether that means a trip to the nurse's office because you got your period at school or the social pressure of developing breasts early or late or whatever it might be. We have to find a way to recognize both truths with tolerance and the hashtag isn't going to cut it. 

 

[Americana Antifa]

31 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If it's simply self identity, then society has no responsibility to treat them as anything other than how their biological sex identifies them.

Sure, it's just a dick move. You don't have to identify black women as women either. You don't have to identify Romanian-Americans as human beings. You can refuse to speak to left-handed people or blue-eyed people.

You're free to be a dick. But don't be surprised if other people condemn you for being a dick.

31 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I don't know anyone who thinks that men are just identifying as women in order to destroy women's sports.

It's a common righty talking-point. We also hear that men are pretending to be trans to be alone with little girls in public bathrooms. Oddly, these same people don't seem to care about men being alone with little boys in public bathrooms.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

Sure, it's just a dick move. You don't have to identify black women as women either. You don't have to identify Romanian-Americans as human beings. You can refuse to speak to left-handed people or blue-eyed people.

You're free to be a dick. But don't be surprised if other people condemn you for being a dick.

It's a common righty talking-point. We also hear that men are pretending to be trans to be alone with little girls in public bathrooms. Oddly, these same people don't seem to care about men being alone with little boys in public bathrooms.

You, also, are free to be a dick.  It's a basic human right.

Edit>  A dick move is inventing arguments and positions for someone in order to reinforce one's own position.  It happens a lot on here, from both sides of the political spectrum.  Nothing of what you said in that post is actually relevant. 

I was reviewing my post to Perspektiv, below, and I realised I should have said the same to you.  Please excuse the late edit.

Edited March 10, 2023 by bcsapper

[Perspektiv]

29 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Sure, it's just a dick move. You don't have to identify black women as women either. You don't have to identify Romanian-Americans as human beings. You can refuse to speak to left-handed people or blue-eyed people.

How is it a dick move when there aren't no standards being followed. Literally like they get bored and make new genders up, daily?

A black woman, clearly doesn't need to self identify. You know what she is just looking at her.

I start to write, it is quite clear. I am left handed. I don't need to identify. You can identify it looking at me. 

Refusing to talk to blue eyed people would be very difficult during sunny weather, should they wear sunglasses. 

The reason you couldn't pass any of this into law, or even socially shame people for not doing it, is how ridiculous the pronoun game has gotten. 

Again, you can't preach ignorance when it seems like nobody can come to a consensus as to how many genders that there are.

I must be ignorant to some form of known standard to be ignorant to it. 

If you feel 1 + 1 is window, that's good for you. Math standards determine that it is 2.

There are standards for a reason.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

How is it a dick move when there aren't no standards being followed. Literally like they get bored and make new genders up, daily?

A black woman, clearly doesn't need to self identify. You know what she is just looking at her.

I start to write, it is quite clear. I am left handed. I don't need to identify. You can identify it looking at me. 

Refusing to talk to blue eyed people would be very difficult during sunny weather, should they wear sunglasses. 

The reason you couldn't pass any of this into law, or even socially shame people for not doing it, is how ridiculous the pronoun game has gotten. 

Again, you can't preach ignorance when it seems like nobody can come to a consensus as to how many genders that there are.

I must be ignorant to some form of known standard to be ignorant to it. 

If you feel 1 + 1 is window, that's good for you. Math standards determine that it is 2.

There are standards for a reason.

The dick move is inventing arguments and positions for someone in order to reinforce one's own position.  It happens a lot on here, from both sides of the political spectrum.

I do wonder what he has against Romanians though.

[Perspektiv]

46 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do wonder what he has against Romanians though

Andrew Tate?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Andrew Tate?

I had heard of Tate, but I had to look up the Romanian connection.

What a strange situation.

Edited March 10, 2023 by bcsapper

[OftenWrong]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's a strange analogy.  It doesn't fit.

It comes across as not understanding something, but - knowing that it has certain attributes - using the term anyway.

Yes I know it sounds very strange. It's just a word association I made because of the way perspektiv described his experience. I hate to use the phrase "cultural marxism" because of all the connotations, but it does have a meaning.

I looked up sexual marxism, and it is a thing as well.

For example-

Sex and Socialism
https://monthlyreview.org/2020/02/01/sex-and-socialism/

While later generations of Marxian scientific socialists saw sex as secondary, derivative of the real relationships of production, many of the earliest socialist theorists and movements took sexual matters very seriously.

The French Charles Fourier (1772–1837), for instance, one of the earliest utopian socialists, saw passionate attractions as germinal to the egalitarian, extra-familial bonds he envisioned. It was Fourier, for instance, who first perceived the connection, popular with subsequent sex radicals, between sexual monogamy and the acquisitive mentality fostered by private property.

 

...

So I'm not crazy.

[Michael Hardner]

30 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 

So I'm not crazy.

I don't think you're crazy.

[OftenWrong]

33 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think you're crazy.

Good. Now, more importantly...

Do you think I'm sexy?

A "loaded" question. As in double-entendre.

As in, you cannot answer that question, without losing

[Americana Antifa]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:49 PM, Perspektiv said:

How is it a dick move when there aren't no standards being followed. Literally like they get bored and make new genders up, daily?

Seriously? You're still repeating the "they think there are 65 genders" meme from 2016?

In America, there are two genders. Maybe some fringe weirdos on twitter are saying otherwise, but they don't count. If you refuse to use a person's correct name and pronouns, you're being a dick. You have the freedom to be a dick, but I can't say people won't look down on you.

On 3/10/2023 at 12:49 PM, Perspektiv said:

A black woman, clearly doesn't need to self identify. You know what she is just looking at her.

But if you don't recognize black women as real women, you can just use he/him pronouns when referring to black women. You can call them "Sir" and use the masculine version of their name.

Again, totally legal, but dickish.

On 3/10/2023 at 12:49 PM, Perspektiv said:

The reason you couldn't pass any of this into law, or even socially shame people for not doing it, is how ridiculous the pronoun game has gotten. 

We want people to use the pronouns referring to the gender that people identify as. That's it. Is that ridiculous to you?

And no, socially shaming people has been pretty easy. J.K. Rowling is socially shamed so badly that she isn't invited to Harry Potter film festivals. Harry Potter fans have kicked her out of her own fandom.

[Americana Antifa]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:49 AM, Perspektiv said:

I will respect how you feel, but will not pretend that a man not even going through the trouble of even changing their ID, but rather just highlighting their hair green or pink, and putting pigtails (still pulsing with testosterone), is now a woman.

Do you not know the difference between sex and gender?

[Americana Antifa]

On 3/10/2023 at 3:12 PM, bcsapper said:

I had heard of Tate, but I had to look up the Romanian connection.

What a strange situation.

Not really. Tate said he's moving to Romania because they don't arrest people for sex crimes. Then when he got there, he committed sex crimes. Dude was basically telling the world that he plans on breaking the law when he gets there.

[Perspektiv]

30 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

In America, there are two genders.

"Other" also is included in most inclusive gender charts.

33 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

But if you don't recognize black women as real women

Even if one didn't. There literally is no basis for it. Her skin is black, and she has a female reproductive system. Sort of irrefutable. It would be like saying a car isn't a car because one feels its a bus. Calling a cat a racoon. A horse a red ant. This isn't being a rude. There's another word to describe someone like this which rhymes with Cupid.

39 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

That's it. Is that ridiculous to you?

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but a trans woman with a male reproductive system and parts is not someone I would ever date, regardless of how feminine that one says that it is. Calling them by what they identify as, isn't a problem. I just can't be forced to see them in the same light.

[Perspektiv]

17 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Then when he got there, he committed sex crimes.

Allegedly. He has been jailed awaiting a trial far longer than what is the legal standard for Romania.

If he is guilty, the charges should have been made clear from the onset.

I don't doubt he committed a crime, but I have a slight feeling that politics also are playing a role in this.

[Americana Antifa]

55 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

"Other" also is included in most inclusive gender charts.

Well there is also non-binary.

55 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Even if one didn't. There literally is no basis for it. Her skin is black, and she has a female reproductive system. Sort of irrefutable. It would be like saying a car isn't a car because one feels its a bus. Calling a cat a racoon. A horse a red ant. This isn't being a rude. There's another word to describe someone like this which rhymes with Cupid.

There's also no reason to not recognize a trans woman as a woman. Gender is about self-identity, not biological sex. You're refusing to accept this reality because, I don't know, Matt Walsh turned your brain into soup or something.

55 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but a trans woman with a male reproductive system and parts is not someone I would ever date, regardless of how feminine that one says that it is. Calling them by what they identify as, isn't a problem. I just can't be forced to see them in the same light.

Nobody is forcing you to date trans women, you weirdo. Non-transphobes are just saying to respect people's identity.

Personally, I don't find fat women sexually attractive. But I would never say a fat woman is not a woman, just because I wouldn't have sex with one.

[Americana Antifa]

42 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Allegedly. He has been jailed awaiting a trial far longer than what is the legal standard for Romania.

If he is guilty, the charges should have been made clear from the onset.

I don't doubt he committed a crime, but I have a slight feeling that politics also are playing a role in this.

He's on tape talking about how he raped a girl. Plus, again, he said he moved to Romania specifically for this reason.

[Perspektiv]

31 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

There's also no reason to not recognize a trans woman as a woman.

/thread.