Don Martin: The Trudeau tipping point is within sight

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

For the people here who react to Trudeau's face like Pavlog's dog reacted to a bell:

What do you have against Freeland ?

(Assuming of course that you are against an Alberta-born Farmer's Daughter who excelled academically and became an acclaimed analyst of foreign policy)

Just a question...

I don't think she has the juice

I think the Liberals would quickly collapse if they throw Trudeau under the bus

Trudeau has them all intimidated into line, he's much more menacing than Freeland

Freeland would be like the substitute teacher, and the class would immediately run amok on her

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I don't understand why you feel the need to call me names just because we have differing views

What name did i call you.

I don't understand why you feel the need to lie and claim i called you a name just because you can't defend your point of view

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not whining, because I am not a Conservative

Its' whining. It's just pro liberal whining.

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

if I am going to wallow about something, it will the state of the Republican party, because only America matters

you have to save America first, only then could Canada be saved

Stupidest comment ever.

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

that being said, I am not stopping you from executing some sort of counterrevolution, be my guest

If you call a general election a "counterrevolution" then ... er... thanks? But we were going to do that even without your blessing to be honest. Hope that's ok.

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but I would actually prefer the Liberals to stay in power

as they are harming themselves most of all, destroying their own brand

They are hammering the country and destroying our people. Don't you think that should be your priority?

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

so even in the context of your counterrevolution, that is optimal for now

You don't really undrestand how democratic representation works, do you

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

1. I don't think she has the juice

2. I think the Liberals would quickly collapse if they throw Trudeau under the bus

3. Trudeau has them all intimidated into line, he's much more menacing than Freeland

4. Freeland would be like the substitute teacher, and the class would immediately run amok on her

1. 2. 3. 4. Your analysis is surface level, but I think you might be right also.  Thanks for the post.

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I don't bother to vote anymore

 

Well good. You're not qualified.

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  How would you think the culture would change ?
2. You need to divest yourself of your deep personal feelings if you want to be better at analysis IMO
3. Exactly... look at you seething at me as though I love Justin, only because I cautioned little old you about your fever dream.  My question is whether you will lose interest in politics if Peter P. falls short of your (high) expectations ?

Pretty dishonest post.  Are you suggesting that if the cbc was defunded it WOULDN'T change?  

And claiming that my analysis is wrong because of my 'deep feelings' instead of being able to offer any actual counter argument? Tell me you know i'm right without telling me.

And now you're having fantasies that i'm "seething".  And still not a single actual argument to suggest i'm wrong.

Well at least you don't hide the fact you're a dishonest player. That's nice.

Sit back and watch what happens. Your beloved liberals will be crushed next election, and PP won't play nice when he gets in. The CBC will be trashed and a lot of other changes will take place to eliminate the liberal advantage.

The question is - what will YOU do when nobody buys your liberal propaganda any more and the left gets shunned by the public?

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

the left gets shunned by the public?

You think a 40% of the vote win by the Cons will cause a dramatic shift in attitudes toward conservatism in Canada, so much so that “the left” will suddenly become a minority and be shunned by these people and their new-found values?  

You certainly are optimistic.  

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, CdnFox said:

1. Pretty dishonest post.  Are you suggesting that if the cbc was defunded it WOULDN'T change?  

2. And claiming that my analysis is wrong ...

3.  And now you're having fantasies that i'm "seething".   

4. Well at least you don't hide the fact you're a dishonest player. That's nice.

5. Your beloved liberals will be crushed next election, and PP won't play nice when he gets in.

6. The CBC will be trashed and a lot of other changes will take place to eliminate the liberal advantage.

7. The question is - what will YOU do when nobody buys your liberal propaganda any more and the left gets shunned by the public?

1.  Weird.  You call my post dishonest then immediately make an assumption of what it said.  No, I wanted to know what YOU think.   Discussion forum and all that ?  Culture change is something I take part in professionally and I'm interested in peoples' views.
2. I never said you were wrong, I said you would get better.  Your false assumption here is a perfect example.
3. Mea culpa.  I'm assuming you are a feverish Trudeau-hater.  Am I wrong ?  I will ask you honestly here.
4. Not dishonest, although I admit I made a bad assumption.  I asked you to clarify in #3.  What is your EMOTIONAL reaction to Mr. Trudeau our Honourable PM ?
5. OMG... you call me dishonest and yet you persist to call me a Liberal lover.  Here's your last clarification: I am not.
6. Pierre already knows how to play ball with the mainstream Canadians - promoting not one but TWO LGBTQ vanguards to his inner circle.  The first act of any revolutionary government is to assassinate the operatives don't you know ?
7.  I maintain that the Liberals are NOT "left".  All governments promote the business sphere heavily, even the NDP.  You should read Francis Fukiyama "The End of History".  That explains where leftism went.

 

[TreeBeard]

Just now, Contrarian said:

The NDP promotes the business sphere heavily?!

Where are they in power?  BC?  Have they done anything that could be construed as “anti business” in BC?  

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Contrarian said:

The NDP promotes the business sphere heavily?!

Michael, is that you? 

= )

I assume you weren't reading their pamphlets in the 1970s as I was ?

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

You think a 40% of the vote win by the Cons will cause a dramatic shift in attitudes toward conservatism in Canada, so much so that “the left” will suddenly become a minority and be shunned by these people and their new-found values?  

You certainly are optimistic.  

First off - you didn't see a shift for 10 years when harper won? I sure did. Most did. And harper tried to play fair,

Second off - you don't think the cbc and it's news plays any role in how Canadians see things? Really?

I don't think i'd refer to you as an 'optimist'. I think i'd choose a different word.

[Dougie93]

18 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well good. You're not qualified.

Canadian elections are irrelevant anyways

the fate of the free world is in America's hands

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, TreeBeard said:

Where are they in power?  BC?  Have they done anything that could be construed as “anti business” in BC?  

Oh HELL yes. In fact - when they were in power the last time Alberta voted the BC Premier "businessman of the year" because he drove so many BC businesses into Alberta!  No joke!!

The ndp has always been slightly neutral or outright bad to business.  They're never GOOD for business.

[CdnFox]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Canadian elections are irrelevant anyways

the fate of the free world is in America's hands

And thanks for proving my point.

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

First off - you didn't see a shift for 10 years when harper won? I sure did. Most did. And harper tried to play fair,

No.  The evidence of that is a Trudeau win x3.   A particular direction by a government with 40-50% support is not reflective of Canadians as a whole.  

 

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Second off - you don't think the cbc and it's news plays any role in how Canadians see things? Really?

No.  The CBC is a reflection of the people who consume that media.  

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Contrarian said:

No, but I know what they did in Ontario in the 90's.

Were you here ?  

I remember I met my first real "Russian" around the early/mid 90s.  So weird to me as they were the ultimate "other" as depicted in films (Ever seen "Firefox" ?  Cold war gem of a film) and such.

So... he wasn't very friendly.  He just handed me my Pizza Pizza and kind of scowled.  

No - in the 1970s the NDP was very very much aspiring to be Soviet with policies that included nationalizing heavy industry.  By the time the 90s rolled around it was watered down to "social car insurance".  

And today....  Singh pledge to raise the corporate tax rate 2 points to 35% to roughly where it was under Harper.

Sorry but this is "the" left today.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ndp-says-it-would-pay-for-promises-by-raising-130-billion-in-taxes/

[TreeBeard]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Oh HELL yes. In fact - when they were in power the last time Alberta voted the BC Premier "businessman of the year" because he drove so many BC businesses into Alberta!  No joke!!

The ndp has always been slightly neutral or outright bad to business.  They're never GOOD for business.

That’s the only thing I ever hear about BC….  how much Alberta hates them.  Meanwhile, I think they’ve been running balanced budgets for many years and unemployment rate is less than most of the country, including AB.   Sounds terrible. 

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  Weird.  You call my post dishonest then immediately make an assumption of what it said.  No, I wanted to know what YOU think.   Discussion forum and all that ?  Culture change is something I take part in professionally and I'm interested in peoples' views.

Weird - you said something, i noted you said something and what you didnt' say, and now what you said is somehow my fault.

Sorry kiddo - your gaslighting might work on elementary school kids but not actual thinking people. You'll have to step it up.

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. I never said you were wrong, I said you would get better.  Your false assumption here is a perfect example.

I can explain to you how stupid that statement is if you need me to. But - try to work it out for yourself first.

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Mea culpa.  I'm assuming you are a feverish Trudeau-hater.  Am I wrong ?  I will ask you honestly here.

I don't think you've asked a single thing honestly. In fact - the fact you would refer to it as a 'feverish trudeau hater' shows your dishonestly.

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. Not dishonest, although I admit I made a bad assumption.  I asked you to clarify in #3.  What is your EMOTIONAL reaction to Mr. Trudeau our Honourable PM ?

You asked 'Honestly' by classifying it as 'feverish' did you LOL - kid, i don't know what bridge you crawled out from under but your trolling is second rate at best. 

I can defend any position i have logically and with reason. and usually in great detail. Nothing 'feverish' here. And emotions usually don't get involved.

And the fact you would ask that instead of challenging my actual viewpoints shows that you're not interested in the truth.

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

5. OMG... you call me dishonest and yet you persist to call me a Liberal lover.  Here's your last clarification: I am not.

Oh? You're getting paid instead/?

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

6. Pierre already knows how to play ball with the mainstream Canadians - promoting not one but TWO LGBTQ vanguards to his inner circle.  The first act of any revolutionary government is to assassinate the operatives don't you know ?

Soooo - how did he assasinate them if he promoted them exactly?

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

7.  I maintain that the Liberals are NOT "left".  All governments promote the business sphere heavily, even the NDP.  You should read Francis Fukiyama "The End of History".  That explains where leftism went.

 

they aren't just left, they're far left. And All models of gov't support business, the difference is in who owns them.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

No.  The evidence of that is a Trudeau win x3.   A particular direction by a government with 40-50% support is not reflective of Canadians as a whole. 

even if the Conservatives win, they don't have a mandate to make significant changes

they will immediately be under siege, like Doug Ford was

then like Doug Ford, they will cave and adopt the Liberal policies

Canada is not a conservative country, people might be fed up with Trudeau, but his policies are actually popular

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

No.  The evidence of that is a Trudeau win x3.   A particular direction by a government with 40-50% support is not reflective of Canadians as a whole.  

Ok - so harper won x3 but that's not proof -just when justin does.  And -  justin got less than 40 percent by a long shot. in fact - he actually LOST the popular vote. The CPC got more votes than him,  Yet - somehow he IS reflective of the population while harper getting 40 percent isn't.

Tell me  you're being dishonest without telling me.

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

 

No.  The CBC is a reflection of the people who consume that media.  

Now you're just being childish. if that were true they wouldn't need any gov't funding.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, CdnFox said:

1.  ... now what you said is somehow my fault.

2. I can defend any position i have logically and with reason. and usually in great detail. Nothing 'feverish' here. And emotions usually don't get involved.

3. And the fact you would ask that instead of challenging my actual viewpoints shows that you're not interested in the truth.

4. Oh? You're getting paid instead/?

5. Soooo - how did he assasinate them if he promoted them exactly?

6. they aren't just left, they're far left. And All models of gov't support business, the difference is in who owns them.

1. You didn't read my post: I didn't say the culture wouldn't change.
2. Ok - but you are imbuing my answers with an affection for Trudeau.  Why is that ?
3. I am - I ask again how you think the culture would change.
4. No.  Not a Liberal supporter.
5. No, the (figurative) assassinations will be to the populists who boosted PP at the start.  Kind of like Doug Ford.
6. Ok - well social democrats favour public ownership, if you want to get pedantic.  I maintain that the Liberals have been pro-business for decades, following the trend as outlined by Fukiyama.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

That’s the only thing I ever hear about BC….  how much Alberta hates them.

Well considering i never said anything about alberta hating them i think that you're paying too much attention to the voices in your head again and should listen to what real people say.

 

3 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

 Meanwhile, I think they’ve been running balanced budgets for many years and unemployment rate is less than most of the country, including AB.   Sounds terrible. 

Just plunged the province into major deficit, inherited the strong economy which is currently slowing down, and many of our prime industries are in distress and looking at downsizing.  Also drove landlords out of the market hard during the pandemic and despite promising since day one ot fix the housing issues prices for homes and rent are far worse and largely unaffordable.

No, it's peachy.

[TreeBeard]

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Yet - somehow he IS reflective of the population while harper getting 40 percent isn't.

I never said his 40% was any more  reflective of the attitudes in general.  I’m saying that, in general, Canadians are a liberal values people, with some exceptions.   If they vote to get rid of Trudeau because they’re  sick of him, that doesn’t mean the country has swung hard right.  
 

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

if that were true they wouldn't need any gov't funding.

They were well funded under Harper and they still reflected the values of their listeners/watchers/consumers.  

Edited March 1, 2023 by TreeBeard

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

 I maintain that the Liberals have been pro-business for decades, following the trend as outlined by Fukiyama.

it was more like business moved towards the Liberals

when the Iron & Bamboo curtains suddenly fell without warning

business was exposed to global competition like never before

so all of sudden, business felt like they needed massive government intervention to prop them up

[myata]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

it's just natural selection, the Liberals won the evolutionary war, a long time ago

The result is the same but it's a bit more complicated. See to beat Liberals in this game one has to become just like them, or even more Liberal. An identical twin from pretty much all sides and perspectives, excluding insignificant. Game over.

Of course you could stand up and say, nope. Not playing your game anymore, and here's a real meaningful alternative. But nah, the chain to the trough is too heavy and the fear of the future, too strong. Nah, let's just try same tired and boring thing again. Let's see if it'll make any difference!

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

The result is the same but it's a bit more complicated. See to beat Liberals in this game one has to become just like them, or even more Liberal. An identical twin from pretty much all sides and perspectives, excluding insignificant. Game over.

Of course you could stand up and say, nope. Not playing your game anymore, and here's a real meaningful alternative. But nah, the chain to the trough is too heavy and the fear of the future, too strong. Nah, let's just try same tired and boring thing again. Let's see if it'll make any difference!

the Liberals actually tacked left to survive

the Liberals made themselves into the NDP in order to win, they outflanked the NDP to the left

going further left is the winning strategy

the Tories in the UK have done it, the Tories in the UK are beating Labour at its own game