Michael Hardner Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 9 minutes ago, Yakuda said: 1. #3 is a conclusion based on a faulty premise. Explain how god's knowledge of a choice means there is only one 2. path. Again if I have knowledge that my son will choose videos games over cutting the grass how does that effect his choices? I want to know how knowledge affects control. Ok, well I tried. 1. Because God knows what is going to happen, then that thing IS going to happen. You can't change your mind because he knows the outcome... so there can only be one. You can't by definition say "I know what this coin will fall. It will be heads or tails." Then you can't say you know the outcome by definition. 2. You don't know. You think you know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 7 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: So it’s nothing like the same as God’s knowledge. Yours is just an educated guess. Why the but? No one has said he doesn’t have free will because you can accurately guess what he will do. LOL In God’s case, if He knows your kid will choose to cut the grass because your kid wants to surprise you, then how could your kid ever choose to play games in that case? God KNOWS what he will do, therefore there is no other choice. How is that free will? It's free will because knowledge does not control choice and I've never seen a coherent argument showing that it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 2 minutes ago, Yakuda said: It's free will because knowledge does not control choice and I've never seen a coherent argument showing that it does. How do you choose ‘B’ if God knows you will choose ‘A’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Ok, well I tried. 1. Because God knows what is going to happen, then that thing IS going to happen. You can't change your mind because he knows the outcome... so there can only be one. You can't by definition say "I know what this coin will fall. It will be heads or tails." Then you can't say you know the outcome by definition. 2. You don't know. You think you know. Yes God knows it but you haven't shown that his knowledge MAKES it happen. I know the coin will fall if you let it go. Did my knowledge that it will fall MAKE it fall? And even if I know the coin would land heads up dis that knowledge MAKE it happen? Just now, TreeBeard said: How do you choose ‘B’ if God knows you will choose ‘A’? Because B is an option. How does Gods knowledge of my choice remove my free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: Because B is an option. How does Gods knowledge of my choice remove my free will. So can you choose ‘B’ if God knows you will choose ‘A’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: So can you choose ‘B’ if God knows you will choose ‘A’? Of course. Show how that's impossible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: Of course. Show how that's impossible If you chose ‘B’ then God would be wrong! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: If you chose ‘B’ then God would be wrong! LOL No God would know that. What you haven't shown is that knowledge of something happening makes that thing happen. 4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: If you chose ‘B’ then God would be wrong! LOL God can but doesn't do the illogical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 17 minutes ago, Yakuda said: No God would know that. You’re ignoring what God knows or you’re having difficulty with comprehension…. God knows that your choice will be ‘A’. If that’s the case, can you choose ‘B’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 7 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: You’re ignoring what God knows or you’re having difficulty with comprehension…. God knows that your choice will be ‘A’. If that’s the case, can you choose ‘B’? Ive answered this already. No I'm not ignoring what God knows I want you to explain how Gods knowledge prevents my choice. You need to describe how that works. Just asking a question doesnt explain anything. You believe there isnt a choice you just can't show how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: I want you to explain how Gods knowledge prevents my choice. You need to describe how that works. If God knows you will choose ‘A’ then you cannot choose ‘B’. Why is that difficult to understand? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 5 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: If God knows you will choose ‘A’ then you cannot choose ‘B’. Why is that difficult to understand? Ok. How does that knowledge prevent me from choosing B. You're just repeating yourself. It's difficult to understand because it's not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: How does that knowledge prevent me from choosing B Is English not your first language? God knows you will choose ‘A’. Do you understand that part? If you choose ‘B’ then God didn’t have knowledge of your choice beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 2/21/2023 at 8:25 PM, bcsapper said: If religious people really believed that a God has given us free will they wouldn't complain about anything. Obviously, they won't ever bloody shut up, so we can assume they don't believe the free will garbage. Or at least, if they claim they do, they are hypocrites. Do you have a free will and where did it come from if not a God? If nature, you are not free and must follow the programming. I think I do have a free will but that it is limited by nature. I, like most, no longer use free to express my political ,position. I use Liberty. Statue of Liberty was the gift that put freedom notions aside. You would not like to live in that thought and acted otherwise. Thankfully, we live where we are only free to break the laws. Make sure the law you break is worth breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 3/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, arikel88 said: Because one you have since Adam " Choice " he can choose and not like the devil you can change your thinking that everything is decide you have to think outside the box ! People here the conlflict so many people is your freewill because everything is predestined you think you never had any choice God gave you A choice ! You were sent here by God A long time ago for God said he met you and knew you before you were concieved in your mother's womb. You have a plan, God planned you and sent you, you don't know it ! Yet. Were all part of God's divine plan and when he sent you here before you came to this world he gave A mission ! What is your mission or purpose ? Did God also create Hitler and Stalin for their genocidal missions? They too were created in God's image, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 31 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Is English not your first language? God knows you will choose ‘A’. Do you understand that part? If you choose ‘B’ then God didn’t have knowledge of your choice beforehand. You can disparage my understanding of English but it doesnt change anything. You can't just say it's true simply because you say it. Prove it. If I chose A God would know it. If I choose B God would know that. That doesn't prevent me from making a choice. AGAIN you haven't shown where knowledge PREVENTS choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 2/17/2023 at 8:14 PM, arikel88 said: Nor it belongs to hebrew people, eunuchs, or angels it only belongs to him to judge. The bible belies what you think. Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. We are all wisely advised to judge all things. Some read scriptures and see a good God in Yahweh, while the more discerning will see an evil genocidal God in the same character. What do you see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 4 minutes ago, Yakuda said: If I chose A God would know it. If I choose B God would know that. We’re talking about what God knows. You can’t choose something that God doesn’t already know. You’re either having trouble with English, or you’re obtuse (willfully or accidentally). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 2/17/2023 at 8:14 PM, arikel88 said: freewill What did Jesus, who never spoke out against slavery say about free will, other than. --- do not use it? To all the sages of the day, as well as today, recognize that to exercise free will was/is to basically commit suicide. As Socrates used for this scenario to win debates, I ask the slave, who would make your shoes? IOWs, You cannot be free as that means living on your own and dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 3 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: We’re talking about what God knows. You can’t choose something that God doesn’t already know. You’re either having trouble with English, or you’re obtuse (willfully or accidentally). But he does already know it no matter what I choose. I am completely free to make a choice. There is no example of knowledge preventing a choice. I have no trouble with either but your difficulty is with logic. You have reached a conclusion with no premise. Insults suggest you're losing your cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 3 minutes ago, Yakuda said: But he does already know it no matter what I choose. I am completely free to make a choice. There is no example of knowledge preventing a choice. I have no trouble with either but your difficulty is with logic. You have reached a conclusion with no premise. Insults suggest you're losing your cool. Explain how you make a different choice than the one God already knows you’ll make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 3/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, arikel88 said: Adam " Choice " Why did Yahweh put Satan in Eden to tempt Eve, knowing what a mess would ensue? If Adam's feminine side ended in Eve, who holds Yahweh's in your version? Satan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 Just now, TreeBeard said: Explain how you make a different choice than the one God already knows you’ll make. Because his knowledge and my choices are independent of each other but his knowledge is perfect. You limit God to knowing only what I choose. Gods knowledge doesnt require my participation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 3/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, arikel88 said: choice to not of eat of it Why did A & E not choose the tree of life to eat from first if they had a real choice to do so? Would you make Adam and Eve's choice and indulge in what Christians sing as a happy fault and necessary to God's plan? See Exsultet hymn. I sing that when I sin. Do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 5 minutes ago, French Patriot said: Why did Yahweh put Satan in Eden to tempt Eve, knowing what a mess would ensue? If Adam's feminine side ended in Eve, who holds Yahweh's in your version? Satan? So people could freely choose to obey God or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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