French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 4 hours ago, Yakuda said: Knowing what someone will choose does not take away their choice. Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”. That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy." But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong. Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 16 minutes ago, Yakuda said: So people could freely choose to obey God or not. Counterintuitive, given the great power Yahweh gave her over us. Is that why he gave Satan dominion over the whole world; to fix Yahweh's error? Satan is then, correctly, the better God for tis world. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 21 minutes ago, Yakuda said: his knowledge and my choices are independent of each other How is God’s prior knowledge of your choice and the choice you make independent of each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 17 hours ago, Yakuda said: So people could freely choose to obey God or not. Obey or die. Death is a deterrent to a free choice. I see you ignore my questions. Try thinking some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 1 minute ago, French Patriot said: Obey or die. Death is a deterrent to a free choice. I see you ignore my questions. Try thinking some time. No it's not. You are always free to choose. What question? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 17 hours ago, TreeBeard said: How is God’s prior knowledge of your choice and the choice you make independent of each other? I didn't say they were independent I said God's knowledge of my choice doesnt prevent me from freely choosing. You're assuming Gods knowledge makes things happen. That's not the case at all unless you can show how it makes things happen and prevents other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, Yakuda said: God's knowledge of my choice doesnt prevent me from freely choosing. If God knows you will choose ‘A’, then how could you ever choose ‘B’? You haven’t answered that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 8 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: If God knows you will choose ‘A’, then how could you ever choose ‘B’? You haven’t answered that. I did answer it. Because he knows what I will pick that isn't the same as he directs what I pick. It's a simple concept and easily shown which I have already done. My knowledge is not perfect like Gods knowledge but knowledge is knowledge and doesn't possess the power to dictate what happens. If I know my son would choose, if given a choice, playing video games over cutting the grass am I making him choose that? God HAS the power, not knowledge, thr power to do that but doesnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 37 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Because he knows what I will pick that isn't the same as he directs what I pick. No one said anything about directing. If He knows, then how would you ever pick the other choice? I will keep asking until you actually answer the question I asked. But you avoid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: No one said anything about directing. If He knows, then how would you ever pick the other choice? I will keep asking until you actually answer the question I asked. But you avoid it. If can't freely choose then it's directed. Show how God knowing my choice means I can't choose something else. You keep avoiding it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Show how God knowing my choice means I can't choose something else. Because then God would be wrong if he knows you’ll pick ‘A’ but you pick ‘B’. (Now you will ignore the hypothetical that God knows you will pick ‘A’). Edited January 16 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 58 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Because then God would be wrong if he knows you’ll pick ‘A’ but you pick ‘B’. (Now you will ignore the hypothetical that God knows you will pick ‘A’). No he would know what I pick no matter what we pick. You can't accept that. That's not my problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 2 minutes ago, Yakuda said: No he would know what I pick no matter what we pick. You can't accept that. That's not my problem You did exactly what I predicted; you ignored the hypothetical that God knows you will pick ‘A’. God’s knowledge happens prior to you picking. So if God knows you will pick ‘A’ millions of years before you were ever born, how do you pick ‘B’? (I predict that once again you will ignore the hypothetical of what God knows) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: You did exactly what I predicted; you ignored the hypothetical that God knows you will pick ‘A’. God’s knowledge happens prior to you picking. So if God knows you will pick ‘A’ millions of years before you were ever born, how do you pick ‘B’? (I predict that once again you will ignore the hypothetical of what God knows) Yes his knowledge does exist prior to my picking,now show how that prevents me from picking B which be would have know a million years before I picked it. You insist on not addressing it. You're coming unraveled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 20 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: You did exactly what I predicted; you ignored the hypothetical that God knows you will pick ‘A’. God’s knowledge happens prior to you picking. So if God knows you will pick ‘A’ millions of years before you were ever born, how do you pick ‘B’? (I predict that once again you will ignore the hypothetical of what God knows) Let's try another approach In your scenario A is chosen. Ok. Who is choosing A? Me or God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Patriot Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 5 hours ago, Yakuda said: I didn't say they were independent I said God's knowledge of my choice doesnt prevent me from freely choosing. You're assuming Gods knowledge makes things happen. That's not the case at all unless you can show how it makes things happen and prevents other things. 1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. The above is when Jesus was chosen by Yahweh to be the messiah. Yahweh would have to insure that someone was going to sin and even kill Jesus, even before those people were born. That is God in full control with the other players have no free will choices in the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 26 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Yes his knowledge does exist prior to my picking,now show how that prevents me from picking B How do you pick ‘B’ if God knew 1 million years ago that you would pick ‘A’? 8 minutes ago, Yakuda said: In your scenario A is chosen. Ok. Who is choosing A? Me or God? You chose ‘A’. God knew you would choose ‘A’. You couldn’t choose ‘B’ if God already knew that you would choose ‘A’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 41 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: How do you pick ‘B’ if God knew 1 million years ago that you would pick ‘A’? You chose ‘A’. God knew you would choose ‘A’. You couldn’t choose ‘B’ if God already knew that you would choose ‘A’. I chose A. Very good. Now show that I chose A because God knew I would. You haven't shown that I couldn't chose B just that God knew I wouldnt choose B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, Yakuda said: You haven't shown that I couldn't chose B just that God knew I wouldnt choose B. If God knew you were going to choose ‘A’ how could you have chosen ‘B’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, TreeBeard said: If God knew you were going to choose ‘A’ how could you have chosen ‘B’? Who chose A? Me or God? What God knows doesn't dictate my choices. If it does you STILL haven't shown how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Who chose A? Me or God? What God knows doesn't dictate my choices. If it does you STILL haven't shown how. You chose. But if God knows what you will choose, how could you ever choose something different than that? Edited January 17 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 23 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: You chose. But if God knows what you will choose, how could you ever choose something different than that? Then its I choose it's a free choice. I can choose whatever I like. God knowing doesnt dictate my choice unless you can show me how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 20 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Then its I choose it's a free choice. I can choose whatever I like. God knowing doesnt dictate my choice unless you can show me how. Yes, you can choose anything you want, as long as it is the choice that God already knows that you will do. You couldn’t choose anything else, or God would be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 Just now, TreeBeard said: Yes, you can choose anything you want, as long as it is the choice that God already knows that you will do. You couldn’t choose anything else, or God would be wrong. So it's like the the ford model T you could have any color as long as it was black. The problem is only black existed. Not the case here. I choose A God knows it. I choose B God knows it. What I choose has nothing to do with what he knows. He knows what I chose no matter what I choose. Prove me wrong. You never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 On 1/16/2024 at 5:22 PM, Yakuda said: I choose A God knows it. I choose B God knows it. Except God already knows you’ll choose A. So how would you ever be able to choose B if God knows already that you won’t choose B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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