Tyre Nichols would be alive to day if he hadn't resisted arrest

[reason10]

 

On 1/30/2023 at 6:12 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

I am merely addressing the cause and manner of death here. Floyd showed no clinical evidence of fentanyl toxicity in his final minutes of life. 

 

What on earth are you talking about? Perhaps you should read a little more of the evidence presented at trial before posting again. 

That trial was one of the worst railroading in history.

The Jury was intimidated by all the rioting animals outside, (who tore the town up anyway, even after Chauvin was found guilty and sentence.)

The autopsy said that he had a lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/medical-examiner-george-floyd-fentanyl-system

Bottom line, without the drug, Floyd would be alive today, probably committing more violent crime.

[CrakHoBarbie]

12 minutes ago, reason10 said:

Actually, Chauvin wasn't the only cop there. And Floyd was going batshit berserk.

A friend of mine up around Tampa was a deputy sheriff for a pretty long time.  The thing that caused him to quit the force and choose another line of work was an incident he had with some PCP maniac. He took a call and the animal came at him. He wound up emptying his service revolver into the man's chest and the man kept coming. He finally was able to put the animal down by beating him with the pistol. The gun had more stopping power against a druggie as a club than it did as an actual firearm.

The Colt 45 auto was invented around the turn of the 20th Century (legend has it) because a US Army soldier was defending himself against some Maori tribesman who was high on some local concoction and the same thing happened. Emptied the 38 in the guy's chest and had to use the barrel as a club to stop him.

Probably Floyd's session of batshit crazy was one of the reasons why Chauvin did the neck press. to calm that animal down.

Gee! Floyd would be alive if he hadn't consumed a lethal dose of Fentanyl.

 

So the cop (cops), who already suspected George might be unwell, decided to it would be prudent to allow Chauvin to press his knee on George's neck for ten minutes. .... That's what you're going with? 

[reason10]

15 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

So the cop (cops), who already suspected George might be unwell, decided to it would be prudent to allow Chauvin to press his knee on George's neck for ten minutes. .... That's what you're going with? 

You need to read the links. It was OBVIOUS that he was unwell, and that he was going batshit CRAZY. He had to be subdued. I guess you believe he should have just been allowed to leave, maybe kill someone with his car.

[CrakHoBarbie]

1 minute ago, reason10 said:

You need to read the links. It was OBVIOUS that he was unwell, and that he was going batshit CRAZY. He had to be subdued. I guess you believe he should have just been allowed to leave, maybe kill someone with his car.

You stated that the cops had already suspected George was under the influence, foaming at the mouth. So the cop (cops), who already suspected George might be unwell, decided to it would be prudent to allow Chauvin to press his knee on George's neck for ten minutes.

How is it that your critical thinking skills are so poor that you fail to see the issue? 

[reason10]

1 minute ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

You stated that the cops had already suspected George was under the influence, foaming at the mouth. So the cop (cops), who already suspected George might be unwell, decided to it would be prudent to allow Chauvin to press his knee on George's neck for ten minutes.

How is it that your critical thinking skills are so poor that you fail to see the issue? 

What would Officer Crack Ho have done at the scene. What would your solution be? Put hospital EMTs in danger by having them deal with this rabid animal? Or many just offer to sit down, hold hands with him and sing Kumbayah?

This incident shows how constrained Chauvin was in that situation. Had I been the cop there, I would have just shot that animal several times and save the taxpayers a ton of money.

That's why I'm not a cop.

But you have all the answers. If someone takes a drug and goes bat shit crazy at your house, YOU handle it. Don't call the cops.

I'm saying Chauvin didn't have a whole lot of options. And he apparently thought Floyd was a danger to himself and others.

[CrakHoBarbie]

Just now, reason10 said:

 

I'm saying Chauvin didn't have a whole lot of options. And he apparently thought Floyd was a danger to himself and others.

You must have forgotten that Chauvin had already handcuffed George AND gotten him into the back seat of the cruiser. Yet, Chauvin then pulled him out onto the ground and pressed his knee to his neck for ten minutes. So clearly, you're confused about what actually took place.

[reason10]

Just now, CrakHoBarbie said:

You must have forgotten that Chauvin had already handcuffed George AND gotten him into the back seat of the cruiser. Yet, Chauvin then pulled him out onto the ground and pressed his knee to his neck for ten minutes. So clearly, you're confused about what actually took place.

This is the series of events as they occurred for that animal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52861726

In a call to 911, made at 20:01, the employee told the operator he had demanded the cigarettes back but "he [Floyd] doesn't want to do that", according to a transcript released by authorities.

The employee said the man appeared "drunk" and "not in control of himself", the transcript says.

Shortly after the call, at around 20:08, two police officers arrived. Mr Floyd was sitting with two other people in a car parked around the corner.

After approaching the car, one of the officers, Thomas Lane, pulled out his gun and ordered Mr Floyd to show his hands. In an account of the incident, prosecutors do not explain why Mr Lane thought it necessary to draw his gun.

Mr Lane, prosecutors said, "put his hands on Mr Floyd, and pulled him out of the car". Then Mr Floyd "actively resisted being handcuffed".

Once handcuffed, though, Mr Floyd became compliant while Mr Lane explained he was being arrested for "passing counterfeit currency".

Court transcripts from police body cameras show Mr Floyd appears co-operative at the beginning of the arrest, repeatedly apologising to the officers after they approach his parked car.

Mr Lane asks Mr Floyd to show his hands at least 10 times before ordering him to get out of the vehicle.

It was when officers tried to put Mr Floyd in their squad car that a struggle ensued.

At about 20:14, Mr Floyd "stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic", according to the report.

Mr Chauvin arrived at the scene. He and other officers were involved in a further attempt to put Mr Floyd in the police car.

During this attempt, at 20:19, Mr Chauvin pulled Mr Floyd away from the passenger side, causing him to fall to the ground, the report said.

He lay there, face down, still in handcuffs.

That's when witnesses started to film Mr Floyd, who appeared to be in a distressed state. These moments, captured on multiple mobile phones and shared widely on social media, would prove to be Mr Floyd's last.

Mr Floyd was restrained by officers, while Mr Chauvin placed his left knee between his head and neck.

But you (in Chauvin's place) would have done differently. Tell us what you would have done with that animal.

 

[CrakHoBarbie]

1 minute ago, reason10 said:

This is the series of events as they occurred for that animal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52861726

In a call to 911, made at 20:01, the employee told the operator he had demanded the cigarettes back but "he [Floyd] doesn't want to do that", according to a transcript released by authorities.

The employee said the man appeared "drunk" and "not in control of himself", the transcript says.

Shortly after the call, at around 20:08, two police officers arrived. Mr Floyd was sitting with two other people in a car parked around the corner.

After approaching the car, one of the officers, Thomas Lane, pulled out his gun and ordered Mr Floyd to show his hands. In an account of the incident, prosecutors do not explain why Mr Lane thought it necessary to draw his gun.

Mr Lane, prosecutors said, "put his hands on Mr Floyd, and pulled him out of the car". Then Mr Floyd "actively resisted being handcuffed".

Once handcuffed, though, Mr Floyd became compliant while Mr Lane explained he was being arrested for "passing counterfeit currency".

Court transcripts from police body cameras show Mr Floyd appears co-operative at the beginning of the arrest, repeatedly apologising to the officers after they approach his parked car.

Mr Lane asks Mr Floyd to show his hands at least 10 times before ordering him to get out of the vehicle.

It was when officers tried to put Mr Floyd in their squad car that a struggle ensued.

At about 20:14, Mr Floyd "stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic", according to the report.

Mr Chauvin arrived at the scene. He and other officers were involved in a further attempt to put Mr Floyd in the police car.

During this attempt, at 20:19, Mr Chauvin pulled Mr Floyd away from the passenger side, causing him to fall to the ground, the report said.

He lay there, face down, still in handcuffs.

That's when witnesses started to film Mr Floyd, who appeared to be in a distressed state. These moments, captured on multiple mobile phones and shared widely on social media, would prove to be Mr Floyd's last.

Mr Floyd was restrained by officers, while Mr Chauvin placed his left knee between his head and neck.

But you (in Chauvin's place) would have done differently. Tell us what you would have done with that animal.

 

So why did Chauvin, a trained officer, who already saw the George was in a distressed state, not just leave him in the car and/or call for medical assistance? Instead, Chauvin pinned George down to the ground with his knee on George's neck for 10 minutes. During which time, George died. They put George in one side of the cruiser... Chauvin allowed him to exit on the other side of the cruiser..... It's all on the video.and, I must say, George looked pretty active for someone dying of a opioid overdose. Clearly you are never going to admit what the courts have already proven.... Which is that Chauvin acted with reckless abandon which led to the death of a handcuffed suspect.

 

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I think you'll find the number of white cops killing black men outnumbers Black cops killing white men by a pretty stupendous number.  

Why would you think that? I assume you're saying 'disproportionately' because of course there are more white cops than black cops. Then again, proportionately, there are more violent black criminals than violent white criminals. But I've seen nothing that suggests white cops kill black people at a higher rate than even black cops kill black people. I don't know how often black cops kill white people. No one has ever done the study, as far as I know. 

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

They don't need to talk about it.  It's not news.  Everyone already knows it.  

If you want to deal with an issue you have to talk about it. I'm quoting the former (black) chief of the NYPD and the LAPD here in a Macleans article. 

Well, thank you. Tell me, the gang violence that you are experiencing, what is the racial or ethnic background of the gangs?

That's a refreshingly blunt question. Some say it may be as high as 80 per cent Jamaican. But no one knows for sure, because people here don't like to talk about that.
You need to talk about it. It's all part of the issue. If it's Jamaican gangs that are committing the crimes, well then, go after the Jamaican gangs. And don't be afraid to go after them because they're black. That's the last thing you need to be concerned with.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

There are reasons that more crime is committed by black people, and this has been the focus of a lot of attention and effort.  Trying to fix the underlying causes of the problem, (I hope) you'd generally more effective than treating the symptoms or outcomes.  

What the underlying causes are differ depending on who you talk to. Liberals believe it's all due to racism. Conservatives, including black conservatives, and even some Black Liberals, blame culture, a lack of interest in education and far too many teenagers having children. The problem is if you blame it all on racism, which is the default position of government today, you're unlikely to make much meaningful improvements.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

What's problematic here more than anything is that you're taking the media attention about a black dude getting brutally beaten to death by black cops and rather than discussing that, you're talking about how much crime black people commit as if that's the most important thing to take out of this.  

How about that. Discussions flow in all kinds of directions. The issue of violent Black interaction with policing and vice versa has Black crime, esp violent crime as the underlying cause. There's a reason these kinds of things keep happening to Black guys rather than Asian guys or even Hispanic guys (though it does happen to all races).  The culture of violence among black men, often as a response to perceived 'disrespect' is something no one ever addresses except for certain Black conservatives who are largely ignored by the media. 

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

Do you think that having more skin pigment gives a person a biological reason to wake up and commit a crime?

That would be dumb.

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

BUT!!! Let’s say, for sake of argument, that once we control for all of those effects, the persistent fact remains that black people nonetheless commit crime at a higher rate. 

Question is: What do we do about that?

Stop telling young black men that their problems are due to racism and the white man keeping them down. Improve education for black kids. That would mean forcing the kind of discipline on inner city schools they presently lack due to government policies, and funneling more of the massive amount of money American cities spend on education to the actual schoolrooms as opposed to the massive bureaucracy of school boards and corrupt unions. No tolerance for violence or backtalk. No tolerance for truancy. No tolerance for not doing homework. If that means tossing ten percent of the kids out permanently then so be it.

There also needs to be a whole community effort to convince young black women to not have babies until they're out of high school and in an actual committed relationship. I don't know how to go about that. It might be that the state could make contraceptive implants freely available to all teenage girls and urge them to make use of them, just to start. But there needs to be a cultural shift away from a culture which most admires the 'tough men' of gangsta rap. And where men get the most status from being ready and eager to beat the hell out of anyone they think is dissing them.

[Hodad]

55 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

That would be dumb.

Stop telling young black men that their problems are due to racism and the white man keeping them down. Improve education for black kids. That would mean forcing the kind of discipline on inner city schools they presently lack due to government policies, and funneling more of the massive amount of money American cities spend on education to the actual schoolrooms as opposed to the massive bureaucracy of school boards and corrupt unions. No tolerance for violence or backtalk. No tolerance for truancy. No tolerance for not doing homework. If that means tossing ten percent of the kids out permanently then so be it.

There also needs to be a whole community effort to convince young black women to not have babies until they're out of high school and in an actual committed relationship. I don't know how to go about that. It might be that the state could make contraceptive implants freely available to all teenage girls and urge them to make use of them, just to start. But there needs to be a cultural shift away from a culture which most admires the 'tough men' of gangsta rap. And where men get the most status from being ready and eager to beat the hell out of anyone they think is dissing them.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but you seem to be suggesting that tossing an additional 10% of Black children onto the streets with no education, no prospects and no hope will have the effect of reducing crime. That's pretty crazy, IMO. Most people are looking for ways to keep kids off the streets. 

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

So why did Chauvin, a trained officer, who already saw the George was in a distressed state, not just leave him in the car and/or call for medical assistance? Instead, Chauvin pinned George down to the ground with his knee on George's neck for 10 minutes. During which time, George died. They put George in one side of the cruiser... Chauvin allowed him to exit on the other side of the cruiser..... It's all on the video.and, I must say, George looked pretty active for someone dying of a opioid overdose. Clearly you are never going to admit what the courts have already proven.... Which is that Chauvin acted with reckless abandon which led to the death of a handcuffed suspect.

 

I'm SURE that Chauvin NOW wishes he had left Floyd in the back seat.

But apparently Chauvin mistakenly thought he could get away with MURDER on VIDEO.

That says A LOT about the police culture in Minneapolis.

[SpankyMcFarland]

5 hours ago, reason10 said:

 

That trial was one of the worst railroading in history.

The Jury was intimidated by all the rioting animals outside, (who tore the town up anyway, even after Chauvin was found guilty and sentence.)

The autopsy said that he had a lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/medical-examiner-george-floyd-fentanyl-system

Bottom line, without the drug, Floyd would be alive today, probably committing more violent crime.

Here’s what your link says:

Quote

A memorandum filed by the Hennepin County Attorney’s office on June 1 indicated that chief medical examiner Dr. Andrew Baker, who listed Floyd’s death as a homicide, thought the amount of fentanyl in Floyd’s blood was “pretty high” and could be “a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.”

“[Dr. Baker] said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death,” the memo said. 
 

If there were no other factors…

Think about this example. A 60 year old man is found dead at home with severe coronary artery disease and no evidence of injury. Death is attributed to coronary disease. But imagine if he had been found with gunshot wounds to the head. In that case, death would be attributed to gunshot wounds. They would kill a healthy person by themselves. If I shot that person and claimed they were already dead from a heart attack five minutes earlier, how far do you think I would get with a jury? 

 

Quote

 

According to another memo on June 1, Dr. Baker told investigators that while Floyd had a high amount of fentanyl in his system, he was “not saying this killed him.”

Former New York City chief medical examiner Dr. Michael Baden, who performed an autopsy for Floyd’s family that also determined his death was a homicide, explained that the amount of fentanyl that was in Floyd's system can have vastly different effects on different people. 

“Like all narcotics, there’s a wide range of what’s lethal or not, because it all depends on the tolerance of the individual from whom the blood has been drawn,” Baden, a Fox News contributor, said Thursday. “So clearly, that could be fatal to some people, not necessarily for others. But the circumstances of death are very important, especially in this case.”

The assessment of drug toxicity is complex in regular users. Fortunately in this case, we have actual video of the victim as he died so we can see if any evidence of significant fentanyl toxicity was there. As Dr. Martin Tobin explained at length during the trial, there was no evidence on the video of respiratory depression, a key feature of opioid toxicity. 

Furthermore, please bear in mind that the assault on Mr. Floyd was severe enough to kill a healthy person. That’s case closed from a legal point of view. 

The testimony from expert witnesses for the prosecution was intrinsically compelling. You should review it. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[reason10]

1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Here’s what your link says:

If there were no other factors…

Think about this example. A 60 year old man is found dead at home with severe coronary artery disease and no evidence of injury. Death is attributed to coronary disease. But imagine if he had been found with gunshot wounds to the head. In that case, death would be attributed to gunshot wounds. They would kill a healthy person by themselves. 

 

The assessment of drug toxicity is complex in regular users. Fortunately in this case, we have actual video of the victim as he died so we can see if any evidence of significant fentanyl toxicity was there. As Dr. Martin Tobin explained at length during the trial, there is no evidence on the video of respiratory depression, a key feature of opioid toxicity. 

Also bear in mind that the assault on Mr. Floyd was severe enough to kill a healthy person. That’s case closed from a legal point of view. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uh, there was no ASSAULT on Floyd.

Nichols was dragged from his car and beaten within an inch of his life. HE was assaulted. That is different.

Officers were RESTRAINING Floyd, who was in a drug induced psychotic state and going batshit crazy. The knee on neck was part of that restraint, (which by the way was considered a legitimate method of restraining batshit crazy criminals who were resisting arrest. Had Floyd settled down, not freaked out inside the car, he would maybe still be alive today. (Then again, if he survived one bout with Fentanyl, the next bout probably would have killed him.)

Healthy persons had been administered the knee on neck restraint for a good eight years before the Floyd case. It was considered  a non lethal form of restrain, and banned only AFTER Floyd committed suicide by Fentanyl.

https://apnews.com/article/was-officer-knee-on-george-floyd-neck-authorized-639cab5a670173ea9cc311db4386abf2

The department policy, in place for at least eight years at the time, divided permissible neck restraints into two categories, according to court filings and testimony Monday by the city police chief, Medaria Arradondo. Neck restraints were defined in the policy as a “non-deadly force option.”

One, called a “conscious neck restraint,” was for light pressure applied to the neck to help control a person without rendering unconsciousness. It was permitted for a person actively resisting.

The other was an “unconscious neck restraint,” in which officers could use their arms or legs to knock out a person by pressing carotid arteries on either side of the neck, blocking blood flow to the brain. The policy called for it to be used only for a person “exhibiting active aggression” or actively resisting when lesser attempts to control the person had failed or were likely to fail.

Police guidelines also instructed officers, at the first possible opportunity, to turn people on their sides once they were handcuffed and under control to avoid “positional asphyxia,” in which breathing becomes labored in a prone position and can lead to death. The city had pledged to emphasize to officers the dangers of positional asphyxia as part of a $3 million settlement in the 2010 death of David Smith. Minneapolis officers subdued Smith with a Taser and pinned him face down on the floor for several minutes with their knees on his back.

Training manuals also instructed officers to be attentive to whether a suspect was having difficulty breathing. Chauvin and the other officers never turned Floyd on his side, even as he said he couldn’t breathe 27 times before his body went limp.

If Chauvin did the procedure incorrectly, he would be guilty of wrongful death, rather than murder. That's how FCKED up that trial and that intimidated jury was.

 

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Then again, proportionately, there are more violent black criminals than violent white criminals.

Perhaps there's more black people living in deep poverty, and perhaps that's had an enormous correlation with crime rate?  

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

But I've seen nothing that suggests white cops kill black people at a higher rate than even black cops kill black people.

I don't think who is killing them is what matters.  That they're being killed is the problem, and we're seeing it happen in pretty retarded situations.  

[SpankyMcFarland]

40 minutes ago, reason10 said:

Uh, there was no ASSAULT on Floyd.

 

 

Mate, if you asphyxiate a person and it’s ruled a homicide, I’m hardly straining credulity by claiming an assault has taken place. Why am I even having this conversation? Read the transcripts and get back to us. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

I have every sympathy for police trying to restrain suspects but there are ground rules. You can’t be doing things that clearly threaten a person’s life in the absence of an imminent threat to your own; force must be proportionate.  

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Hodad said:

I'm not sure if you're aware, but you seem to be suggesting that tossing an additional 10% of Black children onto the streets with no education, no prospects and no hope will have the effect of reducing crime. That's pretty crazy, IMO. Most people are looking for ways to keep kids off the streets. 

A while back the US government under Obama decided that since statistics showed young black boys were being expelled from school at greater numbers than young boys of other races this must be racism. It warned local schoolboards that federal money would be withheld if they didn't equalize the number of expulsions. This is still government policy. As a result, a lot of inner city schools are violent and there are fights and violent bullying every single day, multiple times a day. Students also ignore the teachers, curse at them, play music, and otherwise disrupt classes because there's almost no way to get rid of them. It only takes one or two kids to wreck the learning environment for all the rest in the class.

So if expelling more kids will help that environment that's the way to go. None of these people are getting an education anyway.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Perhaps there's more black people living in deep poverty, and perhaps that's had an enormous correlation with crime rate?  

To a degree, but Hispanics have a far lower crime and especially a far lower violence rate. No matter what the Trumpists would have had you believe. Blacks are 13.%% of the population and are responsible for 60% of homicides where the race of the offender is known. Hispanics, who are pretty close in poverty rates, are 19% of the population and we don't know what percentage of homicides they commit because as far as the FBI is concerned there are no such thing as Hispanics. They are lumped in with Whites in uniform crime reports. But given the "whites" are responsible for 37% of homicides where the race of the offender is known I think we can be safe in saying the Hispanic murder rate is way lower than blacks.

In other words, no, it's not just poverty. It's culture.

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I don't think who is killing them is what matters.  That they're being killed is the problem, and we're seeing it happen in pretty retarded situations.  

Yes, but it matters if you want to address the cause of why it's happening, esp if it's happening so disproportionately among certain communities. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by I am Groot

[Moonbox]

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

To a degree, but Hispanics have a far lower crime and especially a far lower violence rate. 

Are you sure about that?  Have you heard of places like Mexico, or Columbia?  

Perhaps this isn't a racial thing, and a much more complex problem, and that blacks were shipped over to North America as slaves and formally discriminated against for basically their entire history here, with policies like red-lining systematically keeping them poor and depriving them of opportunity well into the 1980's.  I guess everything is just supposed to work out and be better in a generation?  

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

In other words, no, it's not just poverty. It's culture.

Yes, but it matters if you want to address the cause of why it's happening, esp if it's happening so disproportionately among certain communities. 

Yes, the why is exactly what we're talking about.  Why are people getting murdered by police in truly outrageous fashion?  Whether it's Ed Bronstein or another in a long list of black dudes, why are police beating the snot out of people who aren't fighting back, choking them to death or shooting them while they run away?

Maybe we don't need our police officers to think they're special forces trying to show everyone who's boss, rather than serve and protect the public.  

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Moonbox

[reason10]

Do you think that having more skin pigment gives a person a biological reason to wake up and commit a crime?

Actually, the Democrats created this cycle when they destroyed the black family unit with welfare. Today 70 percent of black kids are born to single parent homes. And THAT creates the root of crime in the black community. When the average black teenager doesn't even graduate high school and sees drug dealers driving late model Porsches, a message is sent.

Question is: What do we do about that? Should we blame people for being black? Should we tell black people that they posses a “crime gene”? Because in my life experience, if you keep telling someone that there’s something wrong with them, they’ll usually believe it.  So if we call black people criminals, we won’t solve our problems.

How about we  blame racist white Democrats for destroying the black family unit. That makes the most sense. There is no such thing as a crime gene. Blacks aren't any different from whites, when you look at it from a purely scientific angle. We are homo sapiens, just of different colors. What causes blacks to commit more crimes is culture. Voluntary culture. If  Democrats had targeted the white race with decades of welfare, whites would be committing crimes at a greater level. It's nothing to do with race.

The solution is more complex.  We know that incarceration is the most expensive solution. It’s extremely expensive. And telling people their skin color means they’re a criminal is untrue and, if anything, it’s self-fulfilling. 

The solution is pretty simple. Enforce the law fairly, as it has been done for centuries. In every crime ridden black ghetto there are innocent blacks who are victims of crime. Arresting the animals who commit the crimes is the only thing society can do to protect the innocent, black or white. Law enforcement doesn't exist to try to make rapists, murderers and armed robbers feel better about themselves. Law enforcement exists to protect the public.

[reason10]

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

A while back the US government under Obama decided that since statistics showed young black boys were being expelled from school at greater numbers than young boys of other races this must be racism. It warned local schoolboards that federal money would be withheld if they didn't equalize the number of expulsions. This is still government policy. As a result, a lot of inner city schools are violent and there are fights and violent bullying every single day, multiple times a day. Students also ignore the teachers, curse at them, play music, and otherwise disrupt classes because there's almost no way to get rid of them. It only takes one or two kids to wreck the learning environment for all the rest in the class.

So if expelling more kids will help that environment that's the way to go. None of these people are getting an education anyway.

Joe Clark said the same thing when he took over as principal of the troubled Eastside High and expelled 60 troublemaking students.

[I am Groot]

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Are you sure about that?  Have you heard of places like Mexico, or Columbia?  

Yes. Do you want to compare African Americans to those in South Africa?

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Perhaps this isn't a racial thing,

No, it's a cultural thing.

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

and a much more complex problem, and that blacks were shipped over to North America as slaves and formally discriminated against for basically their entire history here, with policies like red-lining systematically keeping them poor and depriving them of opportunity well into the 1980's.  I guess everything is just supposed to work out and be better in a generation?  

That's the general liberal excuse. But it fails to explain why violence and crime were so low among African Americans in the 1950s and early 1960s. It also fails to explain why the great majority of Black kids grew up in two-parent families up until the early 1960s, when American society brought in numerous civil rights laws, and why only a small percentage of them now do so. These are things which grew much worse after civil rights (and the welfare state) expanded.

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Yes, the why is exactly what we're talking about.  Why are people getting murdered by police in truly outrageous fashion?  Whether it's Ed Bronstein or another in a long list of black dudes, why are police beating the snot out of people who aren't fighting back, choking them to death or shooting them while they run away?

Well, to begin with, that rarely happens. There are millions and millions of interactions between police and citizens every year and the vast majority are peaceful. But there are over 900k police in the US and for the most part they're not very well trained (nor are they in Canada). There is also a kind of mentality trained into them which says they have to 'take charge' and that means allowing no questioning of their 'authority' without a direct response. I've seen people yelling at and arguing with police in the UK who are then allowed to go on their way when they'd certainly have been grabbed and handcuffed in the US (or Canada). 

I would also suggest the whole narrative around BLM and policing and 'defunding' police, along with moves to make bail automatic and free and to largely ignore street crime and refuse to prosecute people guilty of minor assaults, thefts, vandalism, public drug use, etc. combined with a zealous oversight of everything police do have combined to make policing an extremely unattractive profession for most people with alternatives.

Pretty much every large city police force in America is short staffed, along with most of the smaller ones. They can't hire people fast enough and the ones already there are leaving in droves. Even those who stay are not doing pro-active policing, ignoring things they see on the street because they don't want to risk becoming the target of official ire if there's a struggle. Nor do they really want to stop some suspicious guy in a high crime area and be immediately surrounded by a cursing, hostile crowd. This is why violent crime has risen so fast, particularly in Black communities.

A lot of cities are offering entry level salaries of $80k and relatively quick increases to well over $100k and still can't get qualified applicants.

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Maybe we don't need our police officers to think they're special forces trying to show everyone who's boss, rather than serve and protect the public.  

Perhaps not but there are tons of videos on youtube with police acting very calm and polite and respectful and still getting shot. Often by Black people. 

[reason10]

22 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

So why did Chauvin, a trained officer, who already saw the George was in a distressed state, not just leave him in the car and/or call for medical assistance? Instead, Chauvin pinned George down to the ground with his knee on George's neck for 10 minutes. During which time, George died. They put George in one side of the cruiser... Chauvin allowed him to exit on the other side of the cruiser..... It's all on the video.and, I must say, George looked pretty active for someone dying of a opioid overdose. Clearly you are never going to admit what the courts have already proven.... Which is that Chauvin acted with reckless abandon which led to the death of a handcuffed suspect.

 

 

Probably because (a) Floyd was demanding to be let out, and (b) if Chauvin had left him in there in his drugged state, that animal likely would have severely injured himself thrashing around and the police department would be liable.

And again, Chauvin did NOT pin that animal to the ground. Other officers had him down and were trying to restrain him. Chauvin was merely assisting.

The courts were wrong. Chauvin committed no crime. He may have used poor judgment, but the ONLY criminal there was the animal Floyd.

[reason10]

21 hours ago, I am Groot said:

That would be dumb.

Stop telling young black men that their problems are due to racism and the white man keeping them down. Improve education for black kids. That would mean forcing the kind of discipline on inner city schools they presently lack due to government policies, and funneling more of the massive amount of money American cities spend on education to the actual schoolrooms as opposed to the massive bureaucracy of school boards and corrupt unions. No tolerance for violence or backtalk. No tolerance for truancy. No tolerance for not doing homework. If that means tossing ten percent of the kids out permanently then so be it.

There also needs to be a whole community effort to convince young black women to not have babies until they're out of high school and in an actual committed relationship. I don't know how to go about that. It might be that the state could make contraceptive implants freely available to all teenage girls and urge them to make use of them, just to start. But there needs to be a cultural shift away from a culture which most admires the 'tough men' of gangsta rap. And where men get the most status from being ready and eager to beat the hell out of anyone they think is dissing them.

I've subbed at several inner city schools. It's really tough on the teachers, because the parents just plain don't give a shit about their kids' education. They don't buy the kids school supplies (teachers shell out their own money every year for stuff like paper and pencils, and are not reimbursed), they don't discipline those little brats, so they act out in class and disrupt it for everyone else.

Teachers can't smack the little brats. (Well, the Panhandle portion of Florida is bringing back corporal punishment, so we'll have to see.) And I've seen a situation where an ESE kid actually punches a cop, and is arrested. The next day, his negligent mother bails him out. The principal wanted to suspend him for that. The mother threatened a massive lawsuit against the county, since the kid was ESE.