blackbird Posted January 3, 2023 Author Report Posted January 3, 2023 6 hours ago, bcsapper said: God (your God?) is no standard. He says killing people is wrong. It is sometimes, and we figured that out without him. Says who? They allow abortion on demand that kills around 80,000 or 100,000 unborn babies a year in Canada and you say that we (liberals) have figured that out. You and some liberal "progressives" who know nothing about what is right and wrong in those areas and know nothing about the Bible or God and who could care less? I don't see any evidence that government liberals and left and their backers have figured out anything. If these things are clearly wrong in the Bible and have been believed that way for thousands of years, who is anyone to contradict these established higher principles and morality? That is why politics is generally a secular humanist enterprise as part of a corrupt, depraved, fallen world system. Quote
Guest Posted January 3, 2023 Report Posted January 3, 2023 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Says who? They allow abortion on demand that kills around 80,000 or 100,000 unborn babies a year in Canada and you say that we (liberals) have figured that out. You and some liberal "progressives" who know nothing about what is right and wrong in those areas and know nothing about the Bible or God and who could care less? I don't see any evidence that government liberals and left and their backers have figured out anything. If these things are clearly wrong in the Bible and have been believed that way for thousands of years, who is anyone to contradict these established higher principles and morality? That is why politics is generally a secular humanist enterprise as part of a corrupt, depraved, fallen world system. Abortion's okay. Better that than force a woman to carry a foetus to term. It's not like it's a real life anyway. Not like those criminals you mentioned earlier. Quote
Army Guy Posted January 3, 2023 Report Posted January 3, 2023 8 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Did he answer? Not sure most of the times i was drunk, and talking to the great white telephone, ask him to make the heaving stop...it did eventually so maybe. Next few times were in Afghanistan, you know the pray , god get me out of this and i promise to be a better man...and some how here i am, it could have been worse could have converted me to being a liberal. So i would say yes. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
blackbird Posted January 3, 2023 Author Report Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, bcsapper said: Abortion's okay. Better that than force a woman to carry a foetus to term. It's not like it's a real life anyway. Not like those criminals you mentioned earlier. "A. GOD SUPERINTENDS LIFE IN THE WOMB (PS. 139:13-16). David is affirming in poetic language that God superintended his formation in the womb (also, Job 10:8-12). The Bible repeatedly affirms that God’s providence governs everything from the weather (Ps. 148:8; Job 37:6-13), to animals’ food and behavior (Ps. 104:27-29; Job 38:39-41; Jonah 1:17; 2:10), to seemingly random events, such as the rolling of dice (Prov. 16:33). Surely if God governs these relatively minor things, then He also governs the formation of people in the womb. The Lord tells Moses, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Exod. 4:11). So even birth defects, which science attributes to freak occurrences in nature, are under God’s direct superintendence for His sovereign purposes!" This is taken from a lengthy article, but there is a lot more to this subject at: What the Bible Says About Abortion | Bible.org The life in the womb is definitely human, and has all the attributes of a person, and has a right to life. You may want to take in the presentation by this excellent speaker: Miracles: Is Belief in the Supernatural Irrational? | John Lennox at Harvard Medical School - Bing video Edited January 3, 2023 by blackbird Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 3, 2023 Report Posted January 3, 2023 13 hours ago, Army Guy said: Not sure most of the times i was drunk, and talking to the great white telephone, ask him to make the heaving stop...it did eventually so maybe. Next few times were in Afghanistan, you know the pray , god get me out of this and i promise to be a better man...and some how here i am, it could have been worse could have converted me to being a liberal. So i would say yes. That’s great that He has your back. Too bad about the dying children whose parents pray night and day no avail. But, at least He lets you troll the libs! Funny, he’d pick you over innocent children though…. it’s almost as if he isn’t actually there…. Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 3, 2023 Report Posted January 3, 2023 10 hours ago, blackbird said: The life in the womb is definitely human, and has all the attributes of a person, and has a right to life. Is the bodily autonomy of the woman less important than the life of the “child”? Quote
blackbird Posted January 3, 2023 Author Report Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Is the bodily autonomy of the woman less important than the life of the “child”? Find out what God says in his Word, the Bible. Do you think your life trumped your mother's freedom to choose? Your problem seems to stem from the fact that your world view is materialism or naturalism. You believe all there is to existence is this life and you believe everyone should be free to do their own thing. This is a suicidal belief system. There is another belief system which is far superior and meaningful, that is, theism, or belief in God, specifically the God of the Bible who is the real God who created everything and has a plan. There is no need to spend your life in a meaningless void. There is a God who cares about you and everyone. But it is up to you to make the move toward him. Edited January 3, 2023 by blackbird Quote
blackbird Posted January 3, 2023 Author Report Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) Euthanasia is a hopeless, defeatist step that nobody should ever contemplate for himself or others. It devalues human life which is sacred. We need to find out what the will of God is for us in life and follow him through his Son Jesus. The meaning of life is not in materialism or naturalism and it is not all about self. That is the wrong worldview. There are basically two world views. One is naturalism, materialism, or secular humanism which is focused on self. The other world view is theism, that focuses on Jesus Christ who is God. He has something far better and infinitely more valuable for those who believe than the secular humanist worldview which really has nothing to offer. Edited January 3, 2023 by blackbird Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 3, 2023 Report Posted January 3, 2023 2 hours ago, blackbird said: Find out what God says in his Word, the Bible. Do you think your life trumped your mother's freedom to choose? I don’t care what a god says…. There’s a million interpretations of what God says, including Christians who think God is just fine with abortion. I’m asking your opinion. My rights as a fetus didn’t trump my mom’s rights at all. She was allowed to abort me. Quote
blackbird Posted January 3, 2023 Author Report Posted January 3, 2023 1 hour ago, TreeBeard said: I don’t care what a god says…. There’s a million interpretations of what God says, including Christians who think God is just fine with abortion. I’m asking your opinion. My rights as a fetus didn’t trump my mom’s rights at all. She was allowed to abort me. What the Bible says about the human life of the unborn is all that matters. Nobody has rights to kill unborn babies. I can't help it if there are severely misguided Christians or some claiming to be Christians in the world. All that really matters is what God said. Those who reject God and the Bible will have their day of judgment. Those who repent and believe the gospel will be forgiven even if they had an abortion because God is a merciful God. The world is a corrupt place. We all know that. Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 3, 2023 Report Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, blackbird said: What the Bible says about the human life of the unborn is all that matters. Nobody has rights to kill unborn babies. I can't help it if there are severely misguided Christians or some claiming to be Christians in the world. All that really matters is what God said. Those who reject God and the Bible will have their day of judgment. Those who repent and believe the gospel will be forgiven even if they had an abortion because God is a merciful God. The world is a corrupt place. We all know that. Do we have a right to kill ones that are already born? Every day you’re letting children die by not sending them all the spare money that you have. The money you spend on the internet to come to this forum, you could be spending buying food for starving children, but you don’t. I think that means you’re going to hell…. at least according to your bible. Edited January 3, 2023 by TreeBeard Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Do we have a right to kill ones that are already born? Every day you’re letting children die by not sending them all the spare money that you have. The money you spend on the internet to come to this forum, you could be spending buying food for starving children, but you don’t. I think that means you’re going to hell…. at least according to your bible. That’s a ridiculous analogue. There’s a big difference between actively doing something extremely harmful or lethal versus doing what you think is necessary to live as suffering persists in other places. You want to discredit virtue. I guess that it’s because you don’t want to recognize that virtue is possible as it reminds you of your weaknesses. It’s normal to have weaknesses, but the cynicism line wears thin pretty fast. I say that as someone struggling with my own cynicism. Edited January 4, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: That’s a ridiculous analogue. There’s a big difference between actively doing something extremely harmful or lethal versus doing what you think is necessary to live as suffering persists in other places. You want to discredit virtue. I guess that it’s because you don’t want to recognize that virtue is possible as it reminds you of your weaknesses. It’s normal to have weaknesses, but the cynicism line wears thin pretty fast. I say that as someone struggling with my own cynicism. Is there a difference in the eyes of God? If you watch a child starve, even though you could do something about it, you think God will give you a free pass to heaven? “Well, sure God…. I didn’t give the child food when I could have, but it’s not like I killed the child myself”… Jesus tells you to give away your possessions and give to the poor. Matthew 19:20-24 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” Edited January 4, 2023 by TreeBeard Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 20 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Is there a difference in the eyes of God? If you watch a child starve, even though you could do something about it, you think God will give you a free pass to heaven? “Well, sure God…. I didn’t give the child food when I could have, but it’s not like I killed the child myself”… Jesus tells you to give away your possessions and give to the poor. Matthew 19:20-24 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” Who here in Canada can watch a child starve? We don’t let kids starve in Canada. Even in most of the developing world today it’s hard to find children starving to death. Yes such kids exist. Do you have their addresses? Quote
Army Guy Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 12 hours ago, TreeBeard said: That’s great that He has your back. Too bad about the dying children whose parents pray night and day no avail. But, at least He lets you troll the libs! Funny, he’d pick you over innocent children though…. it’s almost as if he isn’t actually there…. Does he have my back, there was a time i thought i was being punished for some of the things i have done in my life, I have no answer to why he picked me, over someone else, it is not like i was a perfect human being, far from it, I've been asking myself and the big guy that very same question ever since my last tour in Afghanistan, Why i got to survive and some of my buddies did not get to make it home. Or why me and not some kid with his whole life ahead of him, tough question one that i do not have an answer for. I could ask you the same question, but i have don't know who you are or what your capable of, so i would not know if your were full of shit, or were a good person. It is not typically a leftist trait to give up everything, for someone you don't know. I have had a wonderful and full life, did some really good things in my opinion, did some things i am going to have to answer for at the pearly gates. Afghanistan taught me an important lesson, and that was not to fear death, it is coming no matter what you do....it is living that is the hard part. And yes atleast he allows me to troll not only libs but the entire left side of the equation... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
TreeBeard Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Who here in Canada can watch a child starve? We don’t let kids starve in Canada. Even in most of the developing world today it’s hard to find children starving to death. Yes such kids exist. Do you have their addresses? Canada? You think God is going to give you a pass because the child you let die was a foreigner? Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Canada? You think God is going to give you a pass because the child you let die was a foreigner? These remarks reveal a shallow understanding of theology, logic, and ethics. There’s a difference between causing suffering personally and not relieving someone’s suffering. To relieve someone else’s suffering one has to be in a position to do so. One has also to perceive that suffering is taking place. One person’s solution to suffering may differ from someone else’s. For example, if a child is “starving in front of me”, while I’d give that child food and drink, I’d have many other questions: Where is this child’s caregiver? Since there’s likely to be one, why isn’t this parent feeding his or her child? If the parent has the money and it’s a choice the parent made not to feed the child, I’d call CAS due to parental neglect. In fact even if the parent couldn’t afford food I’d call CAS because they can align the parent with social services such as family shelters. If I could speak to the parent I’d ask why a food bank wasn’t accessed and direct him or her accordingly. Food and shelter are provided free in Canada for people in desperate circumstances. If the parent wasn’t in a position to take care of the child, there are temporary foster homes available. If you’re talking about people overseas that’s a different situation because it’s very hard to address the specific circumstances of a person overseas without relying on a charity that has administrative costs. It can certainly help but you may not know who it helped or how much of your donation actually gets to the intended target. Countries have their own rules, can be corrupt, etc. Charity is good but some charities are much better than others. If you want to help a child overseas you’re likely reliant on an intermediary organization. So don’t compare actively killing a child to not donating to a charity overseas that may help a child who may be starving. We need to meet our own basic needs to be of much help to anyone. Also we are thinking, feeling people. “Man does not live on bread alone.” I suggest that there are many ways of helping people to manage their mental and emotional needs that don’t involve helping them kill themselves. The government-assisted suicide epidemic in Canada is growing and speaks to insufficient healthcare. In terms of your understanding of who “God” is and whether God thinks your analogue is valid, I’m sure we have different understandings of what God means and I acknowledge that mine is limited. I think yours is too. Humans have choices, though our circumstances differ. It’s hard to understand why the circumstances into which we’re born can differ so radically or why some people get very sick or suffer sudden hardship. There are books on the topic such as, Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People? These are hard questions and you’re free to be an atheist. I’m not going to sell faith. I do think that faith factors into well-being. Research has shown that religious people tend to overcome mental health challenges with better outcomes. I don’t judge an adult of sound mind who chooses suicide. I don’t judge anyone who “suicides”. However, I think the state is in a precarious ethical position when assisting with this process. Were all treatments attempted (drugs, counselling, surgeries, etc.?). Are there other causes, such as socioeconomic ones (e.g. inability to access housing and supports)? Is the person of sound mind and how do you know? As if these questions weren’t hard enough to answer, now we have some practitioners suggesting that people who aren’t of sound mind should be helped to kill themselves. We hear that children and people who aren’t in a position to make informed decisions to protect their health and must rely on adults to protect them may soon be killed by the state. What guiding principles remain here? Who can be trusted to decide who deserves to live or die when the basic principle, “Thou shalt not kill?” is abandoned and our healthcare system gets into the business of killing people? All of this was predicted and laid out by medical ethicists decades ago. The supporters of MAID said that the ethical problems unfolding with it today would never happen. I think we need to address our system’s ability to cure people before we start adding ways to kill people. Edited January 4, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 4, 2023 Report Posted January 4, 2023 4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: So don’t compare actively killing a child to not donating to a charity overseas that may help a child who may be starving. You explain to God how it’s different when He clearly has told you to give everything away to give to the poor and only then will you get to heaven. It’s an inconvenient passage to be sure. And, as seen by your long post, people will make many excuses to give themselves permission to ignore it. But the meaning is clear and obvious. Read your rambling post to God when it’s your time to be judged and see if he buys your excuses to ignore Matthew 19:21. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 5, 2023 Report Posted January 5, 2023 (edited) The critics bcscapper and Aristides are way out of their depth n theology and religion. I also think their ethics are weak for atheists. Nihilistic. Edited January 5, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 5, 2023 Report Posted January 5, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, TreeBeard said: You explain to God how it’s different when He clearly has told you to give everything away to give to the poor and only then will you get to heaven. It’s an inconvenient passage to be sure. And, as seen by your long post, people will make many excuses to give themselves permission to ignore it. But the meaning is clear and obvious. Read your rambling post to God when it’s your time to be judged and see if he buys your excuses to ignore Matthew 19:21. That’s not true at all. Perfection isn’t required of humanity. Faith is what matters most and trying to follow the Commandments, which in Christianity are summed up as love God and love thy neighbour. When we fall short we ask for forgiveness and guidance. Edited January 5, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 5, 2023 Report Posted January 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: That’s not true at all. Perfection isn’t required of humanity. Faith is what matters most and trying to follow the Commandments, which in Christianity are summed up as love God and love thy neighbour. When we fall short we ask for forgiveness and guidance. Once again, the passage is clear. The rich will not make it into heaven. Try the apologetics with God. But I think He will see right through it. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 6, 2023 Report Posted January 6, 2023 22 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Once again, the passage is clear. The rich will not make it into heaven. Try the apologetics with God. But I think He will see right through it. Funny, you don’t know much about Christianity, huh? Quote
TreeBeard Posted January 6, 2023 Report Posted January 6, 2023 28 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Funny, you don’t know much about Christianity, huh? I know lots about it. In that passage Jesus doesn’t say “give as much as you feel is ok”. Read it. The rich aren’t getting into heaven. I understand why apologists have decided to ignore what it says, as it’s uncomfortable to be told that you’re not getting into heaven. In particular, it’s understandable why church leaders ignore or twist this passage as these churches, and religious sects, horde wealth. Quote
Zeitgeist Posted January 6, 2023 Report Posted January 6, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: I know lots about it. In that passage Jesus doesn’t say “give as much as you feel is ok”. Read it. The rich aren’t getting into heaven. I understand why apologists have decided to ignore what it says, as it’s uncomfortable to be told that you’re not getting into heaven. In particular, it’s understandable why church leaders ignore or twist this passage as these churches, and religious sects, horde wealth. No, you miss the whole point of Jesus’ sacrifice. We move away from the fire and brimstone “eye for an eye” into salvation. “Judge not lest ye be judged.” Jesus consorted with tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. His last words on the cross were, “Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” His life is then sacrificed so that sinners (humanity) can be redeemed. He says, “It is done” before he dies because the sacrifice is complete. However, belief in any of this is a matter of faith. I can’t make you believe. It’s a leap one takes or doesn’t take. I’ve done the atheist nihilist existentialist thing before. I’m not going to try to sell it to you. I’m merely explaining what the majority of people who call themselves Christians believe. Edited January 6, 2023 by Zeitgeist Quote
blackbird Posted January 6, 2023 Author Report Posted January 6, 2023 (edited) On 1/4/2023 at 5:33 PM, TreeBeard said: Once again, the passage is clear. The rich will not make it into heaven. Try the apologetics with God. But I think He will see right through it. You're in over your head. Read some Bible commentaries on the passages. Edited January 6, 2023 by blackbird Quote
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