The Plight of the Palestinians

[Argus]

At the hands of Arab governments?

The phenomenom of the Palestinian refugee is, I believe, a novel one to history. Mass exoduses have occured frequently enough, even in this century. The 10 million ethnic Germans who were expelled from eastern Europe after WW2, for example. The ethnic Turks who fled Bulgaria, or the Fins who fled the territory Finland was forced to cede to the Soviets in the early stages of WW2. The tens of millions of Muslims and Hindus who fled back and forth between Pakistan and India when Pakistan was created.

This sort of situation has happened innumerable times in history. Even going back to our early history, what we know as the Loyalists, were people who fled their homes and farms under threat of death by angry American revolutionaries. Hundreds of thousands flooded across the border to safety.

Imagine, if you can, that instead of welcoming them we crammed them all into refugee camps. And kept them there. For generations. Never letting them become Canadians. Never giving them any rights. Grudgingly allowing them to live in cramped, filthy, poverty stricken camps. Forever?

Well, who knows? The point is we didn't, of course. We absorbed them into our population. And why not? They were basically like us; same language, religion, political leanings, culture and value system.

The Germans, poor as they were, absorbed all those ethnic Germans. Finland absored Finnish refugees. Turkey took in Turkish refugees from Bulgaria.

During the various wars between Israel and the Arabs, over 600,000 Jews fled from Arab lands into Israeal, while approximately the same number of Palestinians, depending on whose numbers you believe, fled Israel for Arab lands. The Israelis took in all the Jewish refugees. The Arab nations refused to take in any Arab refugees. And they refuse to this day.

The Palestinians speak the same language. They have the same religion. They have the same culture, the same value system, are ethnically identical. And yet, more than fifty years after the first war, they are still homeless. The Arab governments preferred and continue to prefer to use them as a tool against Israel. Imagine Canada allowing in refugees, and putting them in camps, for generations. You can't even imagine it, can you? Kids born in the camp growing up, having kids in the camp, who grow up, and have kids in the camp. But none of them are Canadians. Who in this country would tolerate the very idea for an instant?

So why do Arab governments escape any criticism for this? Why do we allow them to piously condemn Israel for its behaviour when it is their own cynical political games which have kept the Palestinians impoverished and the middle east in a broil for decades? They continue to demand the Palestinians be permitted to return to Israel, a patently ludicrous idea. An idea which is also unprecidented in history. It is never going to happen.

So what happens to the Palestinians? it's been fifty seven years. Will refugee camps celebrate their centenary one day, still with Palestinian "refugees" crammed into them? Why will the Arab nations not absorb these people so the middle east can calm down and get on with trying to climb into the nineteenth century?

[jonah]

At the hands of Arab governments?

The phenomenom of the Palestinian refugee is, I believe, a novel one to history. Mass exoduses have occured frequently enough, even in this century. The 10 million ethnic Germans who were expelled from eastern Germany after WW2, for example. The ethnic Turks who fled Bulgaria, or the Fins who fled the territory Finland was forced to cede to the Soviets in the early stages of WW2. The tens of millions of Muslims and Hindus who fled back and forth between Pakistan and India when Pakistan was created.

This sort of situation has happened innumerable times in history. Even going back to our early history, what we know as the Loyalists, were people who fled their homes and farms under threat of death by angry American revolutionaries. Hundreds of thousands flooded across the border to safety.

Imagine, if you can, that instead of welcoming them we put crammed them all into refugee camps. And kept them there. For generations. Never letting them become Canadians. Never giving them any rights. Grudgingly allowing them to live in cramped, filthy, poverty stricken camps. Forever?

Well, who knows? The point is we didn't, of course. We absorbed them into our population. And why not? They were basically like us; same language, religion, political leanings, culture and value system.

The Germans, poor as they were, absorbed all those ethnic Germans. Finland absored Finnish refugees. Turkey took in Turkish refugees from Bulgaria.

During the various wars between Israel and the Arabs, over 600,000 Jews fled from Arab lands into Israeal, while approximately the same number of Palestinians, depending on whose numbers you believe, fled Israel for Arab lands. The Israelis took in all the Jewish refugees. The Arab nations refused to take in any. And they refuse to this day.

The Palestinians speak the same language. They have the same religion. They have the same culture, the same value system, are ethnically identical. And yet, more than fifty years after the first war, they are still homeless. The Arab governments preferred and continue to prefer to use them as a tool against Israel. Imagine Canada allowing in refugees, and putting them in camps, for generations. You can't even imagine it, can you? Kids born in the camp growing up, having kids in the camp, who grow up, and have kids in the camp. But none of them are Canadians. Who in this country would tolerate the very idea for an instant?

so why do gofernments not honour the laws of god

..our arab brothers are trying to survive the geo .natzi .satan led destruction.elements as we are thus let me defend my brother..

blessed are you as he

our god beyond name,

only king of the universe

who truly has  made you holy

through these commandments.and commands men to study their wholy prophets words

please lord a hash as me ,for you alone.sweet are the words of your torah.your i chin ..your quaran,, lies in our seperated hearts ,in our hands and of our mouths ,,into the mouths of thy babes and children o greatest of tfathers

to ythe people  in and arround is it real

may we oas our ancestors and as our children ,..and that of our f..YOUR  .future off the holy springs offspring

and of the all other of thy created ..

as our people ..thy bride

that we alltogether.know not  your name but that man live thy grace

thy books of all thy suns..were for the fullfilling of thyblessings and greatest grave

blessed are you,,ha-she,me our one sovereign greator god,king af all creation ,who yet is the servant of all ..the least who yet is the only most..

the only peace thus The only peace maker ,,the savior was right,but the god is not the sun ..nor any created ..she aalone create

she who chooses ALL nations...she who gave each page,,word ..scratch of all the wholy script it ure.

blessed are yiou who has.em ,giver of ..em ..me ..the torah

god bids me thus ..bless

So why do Arab governments escape any criticism for this? Why do we allow them to piously condemn Israel for its behaviour when it is their own cynical political games which have kept the Palestinians impoverished and the middle east in a broil for decades? They continue to demand the Palestinians be permitted to return to Israel, a patently ludicrous idea. An idea which is also unprecidented in history. It is never going to happen.

So what happens to the Palestinians? it's been fifty seven years. Will refugee camps celebrate their centenary one day, still with Palestinian "refugees" crammed into them? Why will the Arab nations not absorb these people so the middle east can calm down and get on with trying to climb into the nineteenth century?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[PocketRocket]

ARGUS:

Very thought-provoking post, and an idea that has not occured to me in the past.

You ask a lot of good questions, to which I'm sure most of us have no answers.

But a few of these you seem to have answered yourself; ie: how the Arab nations want to keep the situation with Israel uncomfortable.

As to why these Arab nations have not been criticized for all this, well, it's probably for the same reason that it's never occured to me before; simply that no one has really considered the issue.

How are these Arab nations about accepting immigrants in general???

If their immigration laws are on the lax side, then there can be no excuse.

If they are more stern, then simply singling out the Palestinians for non-inclusion would definitely not be playing fair.

[moderateamericain]

i think you hit it on the head when you say the arabic countries use them as a tool against the jews.

[Argus]

How are these Arab nations about accepting immigrants in general???

If their immigration laws are on the lax side, then there can be no excuse.

If they are more stern, then simply singling out the Palestinians for non-inclusion would definitely not be playing fair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This really has nothing to do with immigration. After all, most of the Palestinians there were born there on Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian/Lebanese land. Their fathers and mothers were born there. Only the oldest of the refugees even remembers the homes they once had, long ago in their youth. Homes which, for the most part, don't even exist any more.

Arab governments keep up this absurd political fiction about demanding Israel let the millions of Palestinians return "home", when very few of them are even from Israel proper. Only their grandparents came from there. And the idea of Israel letting in millions of hostile Muslims is ridiculous. The Israelis would almost immediately be outnumbered. There goes their democracy, and any sense of protection and personal freedom they'd have. You can't tell the difference between a Jordanian, a Lebanese or a Palestinian without asking them anyway. They're 100% identical. Not surprising given most Arab nations are western creations in a vast area which had largely the same ethnic group living there - Arabs. There's about as much difference between a Jordanian and a Palestinian as there is between someone living in Edmonton and someone living in Calgary.

[Montgomery Burns]

I was ready to blast Argus when I saw the thread titled "The Plight of the Palestinians, How long must they endure such cruelty?"

However, I was pleasantly surprised to see the rest of Argus' post..."at the hands of Arab govts."

There is no doubt that the Arab world uses the displaced Arabs (the press calls them "Palestinians") to further their agenda of Jooo-hatred.

From what I have read, it appears that the displaced Arabs are the proverbial "redheaded step-children" of the Arab world.

However, I am not terribly surprised. These displaced Arabs are a deathcult.

The Israelis compassion to these murdering dirtbags is distressing. It reminds me of Bush's America serving Duck a la Orange to the fanatical Jihadists at Gitmo. :angry:

I know what I would serve them....

[Black Dog]

This really has nothing to do with immigration. After all, most of the Palestinians there were born there on Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian/Lebanese land. Their fathers and mothers were born there. Only the oldest of the refugees even remembers the homes they once had, long ago in their youth. Homes which, for the most part, don't even exist any more.

So, on the one hand, the idea of allowing people to return to the land their forefathers of one or two genarations ago once called home is "ridiculous". On the other, letting people from the Bronx return to the land their forefathers lived in around 2,000 years ago is perfectly reasonable...

[Biblio Bibuli]

This really has nothing to do with immigration. After all, most of the Palestinians there were born there on Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian/Lebanese land. Their fathers and mothers were born there. Only the oldest of the refugees even remembers the homes they once had, long ago in their youth. Homes which, for the most part, don't even exist any more.

So, on the one hand, the idea of allowing people to return to the land their forefathers of one or two genarations ago once called home is "ridiculous". On the other, letting people from the Bronx return to the land their forefathers lived in around 2,000 years ago is perfectly reasonable...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was created because nobody wanted them, and now you want to overrun them wih the yahoos that like them the least?

Tsk tsk tsk.

[scribblet]

As Golda Meir said: When they (Palestinians) love their children more than they hate us, there will be peace.

[Black Dog]

As Golda Meir said:  When they (Palestinians) love their children more than they hate us, there will be peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm surprised Golda "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed" Meir could bring herself to acknowledge them.

[Biblio Bibuli]

As Golda Meir said:   When they (Palestinians) love their children more than they hate us, there will be peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm surprised Golda "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed" Meir could bring herself to acknowledge them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't Arafat and his henchmen also aknowledge that "the Palestinian people does not exist." ?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/714278/posts

[Black Dog]

As Golda Meir said:   When they (Palestinians) love their children more than they hate us, there will be peace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm surprised Golda "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed" Meir could bring herself to acknowledge them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't Arafat and his henchmen also aknowledge that "the Palestinian people does not exist." ?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/714278/posts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did some digging and, after turning up nothing on the "PLO official" quoted (with the exception of pro-israel web sites repeating the same quotation), I discovered that Zuhayr Muhsin was the Secretary General of the Syrian Ba'athist group Sa`iqa which was established by the Syrian government in opposition to Arafat's Fatah. His membership of the PLO was due to pressure from Syria even though his pan-Arab position (i.e. the Syrian position) put him at constant conflict with the mainstream Palestinian nationalists.

So the use of him as a "Palestinian" source is a bit disingenous (also keep in mind that pan-Arabism was the dominant poliitical philosophy of the Arab countries up until the early '70s).

[Argus]

This really has nothing to do with immigration. After all, most of the Palestinians there were born there on Jordanian/Syrian/Egyptian/Lebanese land. Their fathers and mothers were born there. Only the oldest of the refugees even remembers the homes they once had, long ago in their youth. Homes which, for the most part, don't even exist any more.

So, on the one hand, the idea of allowing people to return to the land their forefathers of one or two genarations ago once called home is "ridiculous". On the other, letting people from the Bronx return to the land their forefathers lived in around 2,000 years ago is perfectly reasonable...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know to what you are referring. But the situation in Israel is likely not comparable. Israelis and Palestinians have been hating and killing each other for all the lifetimes of everyone there. The idea of stuffing them together in one country is preposterous. The hatred between them is too great. It will take at least a generation of peace to cool it down.

[Black Dog]

I don't know to what you are referring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm referring to the philosophy of Zionism in general, which is based on theological presumptions of racial privilege.

But the situation in Israel is likely not comparable. Israelis and Palestinians have been hating and killing each other for all the lifetimes of everyone there. The idea of stuffing them together in one country is preposterous. The hatred between them is too great. It will take at least a generation of peace to cool it down.

Haw! Too bad you weren't around 58-odd years ago: apparently someone missed the memo about the longstanding enimity between Arabs and Jews and decided to stuff as many Jews as they could right in the middle of their arch-nemesises.

I also find it a little odd that you think there should be a "cooling off period": why bother discussing such a thing at all when you're calling for the Palestinian population to be absorbed into whatever Arab state will take them, leaving Israel a de facto purely Jewish state?

[Biblio Bibuli]

I discovered that Zuhayr Muhsin was ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you mean: "Zahir Muhsein" ?

[Black Dog]

I discovered that Zuhayr Muhsin was ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you mean: "Zahir Muhsein" ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. I meant Zuhayr Muhsin. Same guy.

Muhsin, Zuhayr

born 1936, Tulkarm, Palestine [West Bank]

died July 26, 1979, Nice, France

also spelled  Zuheir Mohsen  Palestinian nationalist who was a leader of the pro-Syrian guerrilla organization al-Sa'iqah and head of the Military Department of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).

[Argus]

But the situation in Israel is likely not comparable. Israelis and Palestinians have been hating and killing each other for all the lifetimes of everyone there. The idea of stuffing them together in one country is preposterous. The hatred between them is too great. It will take at least a generation of peace to cool it down.

Haw! Too bad you weren't around 58-odd years ago: apparently someone missed the memo about the longstanding enimity between Arabs and Jews and decided to stuff as many Jews as they could right in the middle of their arch-nemesises.

The Arabs were not their "arch-nemesis" at the time.

I also find it a little odd that you think there should be a "cooling off period": why bother discussing such a thing at all when you're calling for the Palestinian population to be absorbed into whatever Arab state will take them, leaving Israel a de facto purely Jewish state?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm calling for them to be absorbed into the Arab states to which they were born. Is that so shocking? Does it amaze you that I think a man who was born in Syria, to parents born in Syria, should be called a Syrian and not a Palestinian? I'm not suggesting they return in a generation. I was merely pointing out that it would require at least a full generation of peace before the hatred and distrust between the Palestinians and Israelis could cool somewhat.

[Guest eureka]

I don't quite see your logic, Argus, since the great majority of Israelis were either born outside of Israel or their parents were.

[Black Dog]

I'm calling for them to be absorbed into the Arab states to which they were born. Is that so shocking? Does it amaze you that I think a man who was born in Syria, to parents born in Syria, should be called a Syrian and not a Palestinian

That's well and good. But the vast majority of people referred to as Palestinians aren't from Syria or any otehr Arab state. They are decendents of those who fled the former Palestine mandate or are historical residents of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967, which had been previously occupied by foreign Arab governments in Egypt and Jordan. A good chunk of the nearly 4 million Arab people in the West Bank and Gaza were born in the period when those territories were controlled by Israel. So, by your logic, they should be considered Israelis.

[Argus]

I'm calling for them to be absorbed into the Arab states to which they were born. Is that so shocking? Does it amaze you that I think a man who was born in Syria, to parents born in Syria, should be called a Syrian and not a Palestinian

That's well and good. But the vast majority of people referred to as Palestinians aren't from Syria or any otehr Arab state. They are decendents of those who fled the former Palestine mandate or are historical residents of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967, which had been previously occupied by foreign Arab governments in Egypt and Jordan. A good chunk of the nearly 4 million Arab people in the West Bank and Gaza were born in the period when those territories were controlled by Israel. So, by your logic, they should be considered Israelis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By your logic, no one who immiigrated to Canada, nor any of their children, nor any of their children's children should be considered Canadians. Do I have that right? Do you think we should refuse them the right to vote, then?

There will be no right of return. You are smart enough to know that it is impossible. Ask French Quebecers if it's okay for us to move 8 million unilingual Anglophones into their province. What do you think their reaction will be? And we and they haven't been slaughtering each other for fifty years, just doing some bitching and elbowing.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

Black Dog raises a very good point.

A good chunk of the nearly 4 million Arab people in the West Bank and Gaza were born in the period when those territories were controlled by Israel. So, by your logic, they should be considered Israelis.

Indeed, many Palestinians work in Israel, but they are not allowed to live there by virtue of 'discriminatory apartheid'. Can you imagine, say, the US allowing cheap Mexican labour for some factories in the southern US but they all have to 'go home' every night? Any other country, for that matter, cannot clear out all of the 'help' every night.

Further, Israel's claim is based solely on the Bible, and has held it as both actually and legally true. This is why many (including myself) claim to be 'anti-zionist' without being anti-Jewish.

[Montgomery Burns]

Black Dog:

I'm referring to the philosophy of Zionism in general, which is based on theological presumptions of racial privilege.

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, which holds that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland.

Israel's Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to Jews, but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries. Approximately 1 million Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population. The presence in Israel of thousands of dark-skinned Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued almost 42,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community.

Zionism does not discriminate against anyone. Israel's open and democratic character, and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims, rebut the charge of exclusivity.

Also, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3000 years, given that the Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E. No serious historian questions the more than 3000 y/o Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people's relation to the ancient Hebrews. Moreover, when the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not."

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

As quoted from the Jewish Virtual Library,

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, which holds that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland.

History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that Jewishness is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history. The realization of the Zionist dream is exemplified by more than five million Jews, from more than 100 countries, who are Israeli citizens.

Israel's Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to Jews, but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries. Approximately 1,000,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population. The presence in Israel of thousands of dark-skinned Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued almost 42,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community.

Zionism does not discriminate against anyone. Israel's open and democratic character, and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims, rebut the charge of exclusivity.

Interestingly, a detailed account of Operation Moses, of the airlift of the Falashas, who were deemed to be 'undoubtedly of the tribe of Dan' can be found in the book "By Way of Deception", by Victor Ostrovsky.

[Black Dog]

By your logic, no one who immiigrated to Canada, nor any of their children, nor any of their children's children should be considered Canadians. Do I have that right? Do you think we should refuse them the right to vote, then?

That's not my logic, but Israel's. Israel controlled the West Bank and Gaza for more than 25 years, yet anyone born in that are was not considered an Israeli citizen and was not accorded any rights whatsoever.

Dear Black Dog,

As quoted from the Jewish Virtual Library,

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

Good catch Fleabag.

[Army Guy]

Nor should they be afforded any rights, they lost those rights when they assisted the other Arab countries in the War against the Israelis. Those lands that have been mentioned are not part of Israel but considered land occupied by Israel.

And the only way they are going to get back those lands is by talking at a table during peace talks...not by bombing or other cowardily attacks.

What have they done to deserve any rights that Israel may give them. What have they done for themselfs, nothing... they've done nothing for themselfs because hate fills thier entire day and night. The wall was the best thing Israel could have given them the next step would be to cut them off totally.