The Plight of the Palestinians

[Black Dog]

Nor should they be afforded any rights, they lost those rights when they assisted the other Arab countries in the War against the Israelis. Those lands that have been mentioned are not part of Israel but considered land occupied by Israel.

What have they done to deserve any rights that Israel may give them. What have they done for themselfs, nothing... they've done nothing for themselfs because hate fills thier entire day and night. The wall was the best thing Israel could have given them the next step would be to cut them off totally.

Which raises the question of, if the Palestians are so incorrigable, why is Israel continuing to settle thousands of Jews next door to them?

[Army Guy]

Like they have a choice, Israel shares borders. I don't think that is true in most of the cases, they just remove thousands of jewish citizens that had settled in those occupied areas. A move that was a major issue with the palestians leadership. One that in my opinion was a step in the right direction. But that was not enough for the palestians they continue to bomb and attack Israelis. It goes to show that no matter what the Israelis goverment does or gives them they will not stop fighting until they push them into the sea...

Building the wall, was the first step. completing the wall and then ban them entrance into Israel. It has already proven to limit the amount of attacks. Then forgetting that they are even there. Perhaps when there forced to do something else other than kill Israelis they might even consider doing something with what they already have.

[Black Dog]

Like they have a choice, Israel shares borders. I don't think that is true in most of the cases, they just remove thousands of jewish citizens that had settled in those occupied areas. A move that was a major issue with the palestians leadership. One that in my opinion was a step in the right direction. But that was not enough for the palestians they continue to bomb and attack Israelis. It goes to show that no matter what the Israelis goverment does or gives them they will not stop fighting until they push them into the sea...

Gaza's settler population at the tiem of "disengagement" was just under 8,000. There's more than 230,000 in the West Bank and growing. When you realize that, you'll see that the Gaza withdrawl was little more than a P.R. ploy and not a serious step towards peace.

Building the wall, was the first step. completing the wall and then ban them entrance into Israel. It has already proven to limit the amount of attacks. Then forgetting that they are even there. Perhaps when there forced to do something else other than kill Israelis they might even consider doing something with what they already have.

Or, in all lkliehood, this "divide and conquer" strategy will further the bitterness towards Israel and ensure peace is always out of reach.

[sharkman]

I dunno, I think the 8,000 people who were forced to abandon their homes might think it's more than just PR. If whites in Canada were forced off of native lands it would be the start of separation(depending on the province involved) or the sudden appearance of all those unregistered guns.

At any rate, it seems like the Palestinian leaders are unwilling to do anything else than the status quo, not building an infrastructure for their people. At least the Jews are doing something.

Also, this might surprise you Blackdog (not really) but I see the wall being the Palestinians fault. After how many decades of suicide bombers killimg innocent civilians, the Jews have run out of options.

[Argus]

Dear Argus,

Black Dog raises a very good point.

A good chunk of the nearly 4 million Arab people in the West Bank and Gaza were born in the period when those territories were controlled by Israel. So, by your logic, they should be considered Israelis.

Indeed, many Palestinians work in Israel, but they are not allowed to live there by virtue of 'discriminatory apartheid'. Can you imagine, say, the US allowing cheap Mexican labour for some factories in the southern US but they all have to 'go home' every night?

Uh, yes. As a matter of fact. Some of them actually do that, those who live near the border. Canada brings in Mexican labourers every summer to help with harvests, then they return to Mexico. Had Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza, and announced they were henceforth part of Israel BD might have a case. They have not done that. And no nation has recognized that any part of the lands they conquered in the multiple wars with the Arabs is a part of Israel. The fact the land was "controlled" by Israel is beside the point. By such logic everyone born in post war Japan and Europe should have American citizenship. Except those born in Eastern Europe who should have Soviet citizenship.

Any other country, for that matter, cannot clear out all of the 'help' every night.

I'm willing to bet that with the advent of the free movement of labour in Europe there are a lot of people who cross back and forth across the borders to live and work each day, at least, those living next to the borders. If we had such free movement then many Canadians who live in, say, Windsor, would no doubt find work in Detroit each day and return home each night. Much like all those Quebecers who work in the public service in ottawa, crossing the bridges over the Ottawa river each morning, and then returning home each night.

[Black Dog]

Had Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza, and announced they were henceforth part of Israel BD might have a case.

Well, given that the West Bank is referred to by Israel as Judea and Samaria and considered part of "Greater Israel", and given the fact that more than 230,000 Israelis call the area home, I think it's safe to say that the area is considered a de facto part of Israel.

And no nation has recognized that any part of the lands they conquered in the multiple wars with the Arabs is a part of Israel. The fact the land was "controlled" by Israel is beside the point.

I'd say the fact that the land is controlled by and settled by Israel is very much the point.

At any rate, it seems like the Palestinian leaders are unwilling to do anything else than the status quo, not building an infrastructure for their people. At least the Jews are doing something.

Yeah, I'm sure any state with virtually no economy, no trade, no control of its borders, massive unemployment (not to mention the all-too frequent incursion by a hostile military) would have all its ducks in a row.

The circular logic here is a bit hard to take. Palestinians are to blame for their miserable conditions because they won't stop terrorizing Israel. Those conditions make a civil society virtually impossible. The lack of a civil society breeds terrorism. And we're back to where we began (with Israel shouldering no responsibility for the situation.)

[Argus]

At any rate, it seems like the Palestinian leaders are unwilling to do anything else than the status quo, not building an infrastructure for their people. At least the Jews are doing something.

Yeah, I'm sure any state with virtually no economy, no trade, no control of its borders, massive unemployment (not to mention the all-too frequent incursion by a hostile military) would have all its ducks in a row.

Just to raise a point which is seldom raised here. What makes you think things would be any different in an independant Palestine? Let's say Israel vacates the occupied territories and gives the Palestinians complete freedom to do what they want. Do you actually think that suddenly there will be a booming economy? There is too many people for too little land. The land is not very good for much of anything with extensive irrigation. There are no natural resources to speak of. The population is not particularly skilled or educated. And whatever government takes over is almost certain to be both corrupt and brutal (much like the present Palestinian Authority). And, of course, there will continue to be rockets fired at the Israelis, and bombing attacks, which will continue to draw Israeli counter-attacks, just as they do against Lebanon.

This is another reason why most of the Palestinians should be absorbed by the Arab states they and their parents were born in.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

This is another reason why most of the Palestinians should be absorbed by the Arab states they and their parents were born in.

This could easily be applied to the Native North American. The only reason that this hasn't happened is that they ('First Nation's Peoples') lack the overwhelming force to make it happen.

[Black Dog]

Just to raise a point which is seldom raised here. What makes you think things would be any different in an independant Palestine? Let's say Israel vacates the occupied territories and gives the Palestinians complete freedom to do what they want. Do you actually think that suddenly there will be a booming economy?

Obviously not right away. But such a development is completely impossible under the status quo.

There is too many people for too little land. The land is not very good for much of anything with extensive irrigation. There are no natural resources to speak of.

Actually, the regions principle aquifiers lie under the West Bank and there's lots of good agricultural land (other wise, why would Israel move thousands into such a barren hell-hole?)

The population is not particularly skilled or educated.

Due mostly to Israel's secuirty measures.

Real per capita GDP for the West Bank and Gaza Strip (WBGS) declined by about one-third between 1992 and 1996 due to the combined effect of falling aggregate incomes and rapid population growth. The downturn in economic activity was largely the result of Israeli closure policies - the imposition of border closures in response to security incidents in Israel - which disrupted labor and commodity market relationships between Israel and the WBGS. The most serious social effect of this downturn was rising unemployment, which in the WBGS during the 1980s was generally under 5%; by 1995 it had risen to over 20%. Israel's use of comprehensive closures during the next three years decreased and, in 1998, Israel implemented new policies to reduce the impact of closures and other security procedures on the movement of Palestinian goods and labor. These changes fueled an almost three-year-long economic recovery in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; real GDP grew by 5% in 1998 and 6% in 1999. Recovery was upended in the last quarter of 2000 with the outbreak of violence, which triggered tight Israeli closures of Palestinian self-rule areas and severely disrupted trade and labor movements. In 2001, and even more severely in 2002, Israeli military measures in Palestinian Authority areas resulted in the destruction of much capital plant and administrative structure, widespread business closures, and a sharp drop in GDP. Including Gaza Strip, the UN estimates that more than 100,000 Palestinians out of the 125,000 who used to work in Israel, in Israeli settlements, or in joint industrial zones have lost their jobs. In addition, about 80,000 Palestinian workers inside the Territories are losing their jobs.-CIA World Factbook

But i would agree that a two-state solution is not necessarily the best choice.

This is another reason why most of the Palestinians should be absorbed by the Arab states they and their parents were born in.

What a lovely dodge: again, most people in the territories were not born in any Arab state. they are descendants of the Arabs of the Palestinian Mandate or the children of the Israeli occupation. The territories have not been recognized as belonging to anyone since the Ottoman Empire.

[Army Guy]

Obviously not right away. But such a development is completely impossible under the status quo.

What is stopping them from putting down thier arms right now, and concentrating on building something. anything. Israel is not stopping them from doing that.

Actually, the regions principle aquifiers lie under the West Bank and there's lots of good agricultural land (other wise, why would Israel move thousands into such a barren hell-hole?)

Have you been to Israel, i ask because at most Israelis borders you look into the Israelis side and see green you see life, you see infra structure you get the piont. view into the the other borders all you see is sand, sure a few houses but mostly sand. My piont is if the Israelis can turn a barren hell hole into a green area, why can't the rest of the arabs.

The population is not particularly skilled or educated.

Due mostly to Israel's secuirty measures.

Your joking right, palestianians bomb Israel, Israel takes measures to protect itself and it now becomes Israel's fault that the Palestinians are in the boat they are in. Your quote below even states that Israel takes measures to lessen the effects on the palestianians and they repay Israel with a new wave of violence.

Your right it is Israel's fault, and they should be made to take down the wall, they should learn how to die like good jews did in WW II, They should be made to pay them dirty little bastar*s.

Someone once said every man is responsiable for his own actions. And for every action there is a reaction. It's time for both sides to take responsibility for thier actions.

[Black Dog]

What is stopping them from putting down thier arms right now, and concentrating on building something. anything. Israel is not stopping them from doing that.

Actually, they are. Read the bit I quoted from the CIA Wolrd Fact Bok on the affect of the occupation on the PA's economy.

Have you been to Israel, i ask because at most Israelis borders you look into the Israelis side and see green you see life, you see infra structure you get the piont. view into the the other borders all you see is sand, sure a few houses but mostly sand. My piont is if the Israelis can turn a barren hell hole into a green area, why can't the rest of the arabs.

Uh...no infrastructure, no money, no economy? Plus, it's hard to build something nice when your olive groves are being bulldozed for settlements.

Your joking right, palestianians bomb Israel, Israel takes measures to protect itself and it now becomes Israel's fault that the Palestinians are in the boat they are in. Your quote below even states that Israel takes measures to lessen the effects on the palestianians and they repay Israel with a new wave of violence.

Now I'm not going to deny there's a problem on the Palestinian side. there are too many groups willing to sell their people's hopes for peace down the river based on the unacheivable goal of destroying Israel. But, contrary to what posters here would say, most Palestinans oppose violence.

However, I have to ask: has Israel's heavy handness made them any safer or brought peace any closer? Have their policies of collective punishment, the social and economic strangulation and the uprooting of people from the land they've lived on for generations discouraged the growth of radicalism?

Your right it is Israel's fault, and they should be made to take down the wall, they should learn how to die like good jews did in WW II, They should be made to pay them dirty little bastar*s.

You're trying to tell me that Israel (the most powerful country in the region) is in danger of destruction by the rag-tag Palestinians?? Give your head a shake, man.

See, I don't think the Israelis and Palestinans are all that different: in both cases, the vast majority of people want nothing more than to go abouit their lives in peace. But both people are held hostage by the radical forces within their midst (Islamic and Zionist militants), forces that drive the agenda and keep the cycle of violence turning for their own ends.