To What Extent Do You Support Abortion?

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

It is not a child. It isn't even a fetus yet until it's 8 weeks old. 

You don't get to pretend that a glob of a few thousand cells is more important to you than the entire life of a young woman is to her and her family. 

And you don't get to say that forcing a young girl to carry the product of a rape to term isn't immoral. 

the life of the child is equal to the life of the mother

which is why killing it is immoral

saying glob of cells is irrelevant

Edited July 9, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[WestCanMan]

10 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the life of the child is equal to the life of the mother

Again, not a child, nor even a fetus. Grab a dictionary.

And no, it is not. Not as a miniature glob of cells.

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which is why killing it is immoral

Have you ever squished a spider? Killed a wasp? They didn't want to be killed, and in a lot of instances they saw it coming and were in fear before they died. You killed them.

Not so for a 7-week-old glob of cells. They weren't aware of what was happening at all. 

Do you eat meat? Do you think that cows want to die so that you can slather their muscles with bbq sauce and gorge yourself? 

Do you hunt? Do you think that deer want to be shot with .30 calibre bullets and bleed out so that you can feast on some wild game instead of eating some salad or something? 

The cows and deer wanted to live, the glob of cells was completely neutral to its own demise. Which acts were immoral Yz?

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saying glob of cells is irrelevant

It's accurate. The word child has an actual meaning. It's already in use.

This is like if I started calling a chair a "child" and then insisted that you play along. It's silly. 

[Infidel Dog]

14 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Again, not a child, nor even a fetus. Grab a dictionary.

Child is between birth and puberty.

However...a consensus of biologists say a human life begins at fertilization.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703

Myself, I haven't made up my mind yet on if I want to advocate for terminating a human life in the name of inconvenience.

Once the heart starts beating and the nervous system starts forming though there's no ambiguity in my mind. On that one, that feels like a baby. Killing it feels wrong. I'm in favor of calling it murder.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Infidel Dog

[Yzermandius19]

17 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Again, not a child, nor even a fetus. Grab a dictionary.

And no, it is not. Not as a miniature glob of cells.

Have you ever squished a spider? Killed a wasp? They didn't want to be killed, and in a lot of instances they saw it coming and were in fear before they died. You killed them.

Not so for a 7-week-old glob of cells. They weren't aware of what was happening at all. 

Do you eat meat? Do you think that cows want to die so that you can slather their muscles with bbq sauce and gorge yourself? 

Do you hunt? Do you think that deer want to be shot with .30 calibre bullets and bleed out so that you can feast on some wild game instead of eating some salad or something? 

The cows and deer wanted to live, the glob of cells was completely neutral to its own demise. Which acts were immoral Yz?

It's accurate. The word child has an actual meaning. It's already in use.

This is like if I started calling a chair a "child" and then insisted that you play along. It's silly. 

killing humans is immoral

if I kill you in your sleep

it's not moral because you didn't see it coming

it's not moral because you are a glob of cells

it's not moral if I compare it to killing a cow or a spider

Edited July 9, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Infidel Dog]

Here's something worth quoting from Princeton.edu.

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A. Basic human embryological facts

To begin with, scientifically something very radical occurs between the processes of gametogenesis and fertilization�the change from a simple part of one human being (i.e., a sperm) and a simple part of another human being (i.e., an oocyte�usually referred to as an "ovum" or "egg"), which simply possess "human life", to a new, genetically unique, newly existing, individual, whole living human being (a single-cell embryonic human zygote). That is, upon fertilization, parts of human beings have actually been transformed into something very different from what they were before; they have been changed into a single, whole human being. During the process of fertilization, the sperm and the oocyte cease to exist as such, and a new human being is produced.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Child is between birth and puberty.

Yes

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However...a consensus of biologists say a human life begins at fertilization.

For sure, but definitely not a sentient being at that point. Just some cells.

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Myself, I haven't made up my mind yet on if I want to advocate for terminating a human life in the name of inconvenience.

 

14-yr-old girl gets pregnant, her life is basically over if she has a baby. It's an easy decision, and whether or not it's legal, they will almost always abort. It's just a matter of whether or not it's safe. 

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

killing humans is immoral

unrelated to the topic of killing a glob of cells

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if I kill you in your sleep

it's not moral because you didn't see it coming

it's not moral because you are a glob of cells

You'd be killing a completely sentient being, not just some cells that are basically unaware of their existence. 

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it's not moral if I compare it to killing a cow or a spider

From the pov of the victim's awareness, killing the spider or cow is far worse. 

 

[OftenWrong]

I voted as explained earlier, but note there was no option 6 - Abortion after the baby is born.

"California style..."

[Yzermandius19]

11 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

unrelated to the topic of killing a glob of cells

You'd be killing a completely sentient being, not just some cells that are basically unaware of their existence. 

From the pov of the victim's awareness, killing the spider or cow is far worse. 

when the glob of cells is a human it's related

that glob of cells you are fine with killing, will become aware of it's existence in short order

like someone waking up from a coma

is it cool to kill people in a coma that will wake up in a predictable amount of time, in your world?

because that's immoral too

all of the lines you draw can apply to fully grown humans in certain circumstances

and those circumstance being the case doesn't make killing them not immoral

you have no logical line you can draw that makes it okay, outside of killing in self defense

[Aristides]

So what about IVF? A couple has a bunch of eggs fertilized and the embryos frozen for the future but for some reason they don’t get used. What then?

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So what about IVF? A couple has a bunch of eggs fertilized and the embryos frozen for the future but for some reason they don’t get used. What then?

it would be better if they get used

efforts should be made to see that they are

they shouldn't be intentionally destroyed and preserved as long as possible

if those criteria are met, IVF wouldn't be an issue

Edited July 10, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

it would be better if they get used

efforts should be made to see that they are

they shouldn't be intentionally destroyed and preserved as long as possible

if those criteria are met, IVF wouldn't be an issue

So do you keep them forever? You can’t force anyone to use them.

[Yzermandius19]

17 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So do you keep them forever? You can’t force anyone to use them.

keep them as long as you can

and if you aren't going to use them

someone else can

intentional destruction of human beings is an immoral option

[Aristides]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

keep them as long as you can

and if you aren't going to use them

someone else can

intentional destruction of human beings is an immoral option

You can’t force anyone to use them. 

[Yzermandius19]

31 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You can’t force anyone to use them. 

who's forcing?

if they'd rather kill them than have someone use them

that's totally immoral

[Aristides]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

who's forcing?

if they'd rather kill them than have someone use them

that's totally immoral

What do you do with them if no one wants them?

Edited July 10, 2022 by Aristides

[Yzermandius19]

42 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What do you do with them if no one wants them?

wait until someone does

[Aristides]

38 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

wait until someone does

So how many millions of them do you let pile up over the decades? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6911130/

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So how many millions of them do you let pile up over the decades? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6911130/

as many as it takes

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

as many as it takes

Did you bother to read the link? You should start dealing with reality.

[Yzermandius19]

18 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Did you bother to read the link? You should start dealing with reality.

there being a backlog is no excuse to kill

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

there being a backlog is no excuse to kill

What happens when that backlog reaches billions?

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What happens when that backlog reaches billions?

it won't

and if it did

that still doesn't make it moral it kill them

especially when falling birth rates are an issue and will become an even bigger issue going forward

Edited July 10, 2022 by Yzermandius19

[Aristides]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

it won't

and if it did

that still doesn't make it moral it kill them

https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/article/17-million-human-embryos-created-ivf-thrown-away

That was between 1991 and 2012. How many do you think since then?

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/article/17-million-human-embryos-created-ivf-thrown-away

That was between 1991 and 2012. How many do you think since then?

killing 17 million is not a good thing

anyone saying it is

is morally bankrupt