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Strong evidence that everything was created by an intelligent designer: God.


blackbird

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36 minutes ago, blackbird said:

God doesn't tell us how he placed the genetic code and other information and machinery in a cell. 

 Then how do we know god did it?

“There are some things we have to assume by reason or logic.” - but that logic means that I can claim I am god as I stated above. 

 “That is, that God created everything by an act of divine (supernatural) power.” - You can not start logic with the conclusion, saying god exists therefore there is a god is circular argument. 

 

 “It is a serious mistake to think God needs to give us an explanation of how he created everything.”  - Why? Then I am God, since it would be “ a serious mistake to think” I need to give an explanation. 

“After all God is God and we are mere mortal creatures created by God.”- Circular argument, no validity.

https://examples.yourdictionary.com/circular-reasoning-fallacy-examples.html

“ He doesn't owe us anything. It is us who depend on him.” - Not at all, for myself god does not exist, no dependence required. But if god does want recognition for “his” creation, then “he” would have to provide evidence. 

“ Evolutionists and Creationists hold to two contrary world views and both start with their own assumptions.” - I do not care about evolutionists, the burden of proof of god is on creationists. If you want to start with there is a god first without evidence, your argument is already circular and wrong. 

"So if you start with the assumption that there is no God, and demand that God's existence be proven by some kind of outward sign or miracle, you are creating an impossible barrier to cross. "- Not at all, I ask for simple evidence of a god. For example, if we came across a building and I stated it was built by a company of humans, you could ask for proof, I could provide the proof i.e. blueprints, pictures documentation of progress, material, procedures, methods ect. All I am asking for is proof of procedure or methods.

“That is the evolutionist's or atheist's world view.  The evidence for God is widespread in his creation's beauty and complexity. “ - Again another circular argument, you can not say god exists thus god is the creator without proving god exists. Please look up circular arguments.  

 

" 24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good."  Genesis 1:24, 25 KJV "- Would you like to explain “and God said” how sound waves create any living matter? Why does God not understand how physics works? 

 

"Origin of life: the polymerization problem - creation.com"

“Conclusion 

Despite over-optimistic science reports and very biased and hyped-up media reports, scientists have not even come close to ‘creating life in the test-tube’. Even if they do manage this feat, it will be the result of intelligent design. Ordinary undirected chemistry moves in the wrong direction—for example, as shown in this article, biological polymers tend to break apart, not form.” -  No scientific conclusion would ever make an additional conclusion without evidence, “ Even if they do manage this feat, it will be the result of intelligent design.” How did they suddenly know it would be the result of intelligent design when nothing in the article or study indicated intelligent design? It seems like they already had a conclusion without evidence. 

" the problem for evolutionists is even worse, because life requires not just any polymers, but highly specified ones.”  Again the article jumps to the creation conclusion without supporting evidence. Again, even if all science is 100% wrong, it does not mean God exists, only that the science is wrong. 

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15 hours ago, Winston said:

 Then how do we know god did it?

“There are some things we have to assume by reason or logic.” - but that logic means that I can claim I am god as I stated above. 

 “That is, that God created everything by an act of divine (supernatural) power.” - You can not start logic with the conclusion, saying god exists therefore there is a god is circular argument. 

I would like to reply to this one point you raise repeatedly as it seems to be your central argument against belief in God.

My saying God must exist because the evidence of his handiwork or creation is before our eyes you claim is a circular argument.  I disagree.  There is nothing circular about it.  It is simply stating logic.

The principle is well known in the world.  An effect must have a cause.  Everything exists because it was put there or created.  It is the universal principle of cause and effect.  

First that God is a supernatural being, that is, he is transcendent or outside of the created material universe.  He is not part of what we think of as matter or the material universe.  How could he be if he created the universe out of nothing by supernatural power.  This is the point.  A material universe cannot create itself because that would be completely illogical.  If we think of space before creation, then we would think there is nothing, no material or matter.  So there would be no cause to create an effect.  But God who is a Spirit is not a part of the material universe and is of infinite power and therefore able to be that cause that created.  If you remove God from the picture and say there is no God, then you are left with no explanation of where or how the universe came to be.  Therefore it is incumbent on you to explain how something could appear out of nothing.  That is illogical and unreasonable.  Secondly the complexity of the universe and how it all functions together would require a designer Creator.  So the ball is back in your court to explain how a highly sophisticated, complex universe, including an earth that has all the structure, climate, atmosphere, water, etc. that make life possible came to be.  If not designed and created by God, where did everything come from?  Unless you can come up with a better explanation than God, you have nothing to stand on.  

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7 hours ago, blackbird said:

I would like to reply to this one point you raise repeatedly as it seems to be your central argument against belief in God.

You are mistaken, I do not have an argument against belief in god. My argument is against the “evidence” to support the conclusion there is a god. You are welcome to believe in a god. 

“The principle is well known in the world.  An effect must have a cause.  Everything exists because it was put there or created.  It is the universal principle of cause and effect.” - Please understand how to establish a Cause and effect system. You must have measurable evidence to prove a cause.

"First that God is a supernatural being, that is, he is transcendent or outside of the created material universe.  He is not part of what we think of as matter or the material universe.  How could he be if he created the universe out of nothing by supernatural power. " - Please explain how something not made of matter or material universe interacts with the universal matter? Again does god not understand physics or thermodynamics?

"If we think of space before creation, then we would think there is nothing, no material or matter.  So there would be no cause to create an effect. "- I agree we do not know the “cause” or by which system the universe began, we have models that suggest certain causes. This has no bearing on the argument for a god. 

 "But God who is a Spirit is not a part of the material universe and is of infinite power and therefore able to be that cause that created. "- Please look up cause and effect, You must have measurable evidence to prove a cause, do you have measurable evidence? How did you determine god is the cause? 

https://conjointly.com/kb/establishing-cause-and-effect/

Keep in mind you are changing the discussion from evidence there is a creator, to prove how universal systems came to be scientifically.

"If you remove God from the picture and say there is no God, then you are left with no explanation of where or how the universe came to be. Therefore it is incumbent on you to explain how something could appear out of nothing. Secondly the complexity of the universe and how it all functions together would require a designer Creator.  So the ball is back in your court to explain how a highly sophisticated, complex universe, including an earth that has all the structure, climate, atmosphere, water, etc. that make life possible came to be. "- This is a different discussion entirely.  I am not a professional in quantum physics, biochemistry, complex mathematics or universal modeling, I would reference those that hold such titles. There are vast amounts of scientific studies, articles and experiments that demonstrate how most of these complex systems evolved or follow a universal set of rules. Again a different discussion, to which I would encourage you to spend time understanding scientific studies in the fields mentioned above. 

"Unless you can come up with a better explanation than God, you have nothing to stand on." - This is where you are mistaken, god is not an explanation, instead it is a filler. God needs to be studied, measurable and quantifiable in order for God to be an explanation. There must be measurable evidence that god is the cause, otherwise I could just announce that I created everything, no evidence required.

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19 minutes ago, Winston said:

 "Unless you can come up with a better explanation than God, you have nothing to stand on." - This is where you are mistaken, god is not an explanation, instead it is a filler. God needs to be studied, measurable and quantifiable in order for God to be an explanation. There must be measurable evidence that god is the cause, otherwise I could just announce that I created everything, no evidence required.

This is where you err.  You want proof in the form of the materialistic world for something that is above and beyond the material universe.  God is not made of the material universe.  He is a supernatural being apart from the created universe.  Therefore it is illogical to expect some kind of earthly materialistic proof that God exists or created the universe.  The whole point is that God has the power and did in fact create the universe simply by speaking it into existence.  He is the omnipotent God who can do those kinds of things and anything.  It is impossible to explain that in earthly terms or some kind of explanation apart from the supernatural power.  We are talking about the supernatural, not natural world.

Supernatural things can only be understood by a spiritual mind.  The natural mind, which you are trying to use, will not work to understand supernatural things.  That is the problem in a nutshell.

"6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."  1 Corinthians 2:6-11 KJV

The Bible clearly teaches that the wisdom of this world is foolishness.  If you reject the supernatural, then you are limiting yourself to the things of this world, which God says are foolishness.  True wisdom must include the supernatural.  The Bible makes it clear.  One cannot have faith and wisdom without acceptance of the supernatural because God is a supernatural being above  and separate from the created universe.

 

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

 

Supernatural things can only be understood by a spiritual mind.  The natural mind, which you are trying to use, will not work to understand supernatural things.  That is the problem in a nutshell.

 

 

We have reached the premise of any religious proof, you must believe in the supernatural or spiritual mind in order to gain evidence of a god. In order to believe in god one must believe in a spiritual mind. This is not measurable evidence, and is not useful in convincing non believers. 

"The Bible clearly teaches that the wisdom of this world is foolishness. If you reject the supernatural, then you are limiting yourself to the things of this world, which God says are foolishness.  True wisdom must include the supernatural.  The Bible makes it clear.  One cannot have faith and wisdom without acceptance of the supernatural because God is a supernatural being above and separate from the created universe."- Actually God creating everything in the universe is problematic in relation to God’s psychology. God created evil, God created pain, suffering, temptation and sadistic tests. God either allows evil events to occur or creates evil events. God also created arbitrary rules to follow, with any rules broken resulting in eternal suffering. God also created a son, who God required to be murdered and tortured for his pleasure in order to forgive humans. God tempts people with evil as a test, if they fail God sends them to eternal suffering. God requires worship, obedience and belief, otherwise God pushes them by eternal suffering. 

By this basis, imagine a general human person acting in this way, God would be considered a narcissistic, sadistic, psychopath. 

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2 hours ago, Winston said:

We have reached the premise of any religious proof, you must believe in the supernatural or spiritual mind in order to gain evidence of a god. In order to believe in god one must believe in a spiritual mind. This is not measurable evidence, and is not useful in convincing non believers. 

"The Bible clearly teaches that the wisdom of this world is foolishness. If you reject the supernatural, then you are limiting yourself to the things of this world, which God says are foolishness.  True wisdom must include the supernatural.  The Bible makes it clear.  One cannot have faith and wisdom without acceptance of the supernatural because God is a supernatural being above and separate from the created universe."- Actually God creating everything in the universe is problematic in relation to God’s psychology. God created evil, God created pain, suffering, temptation and sadistic tests. God either allows evil events to occur or creates evil events. God also created arbitrary rules to follow, with any rules broken resulting in eternal suffering. God also created a son, who God required to be murdered and tortured for his pleasure in order to forgive humans. God tempts people with evil as a test, if they fail God sends them to eternal suffering. God requires worship, obedience and belief, otherwise God pushes them by eternal suffering. 

By this basis, imagine a general human person acting in this way, God would be considered a narcissistic, sadistic, psychopath. 

No.  That is completely wrong. 

The following may not be 100% but is from memory.  The Bible teachings are the final authority.  First of all, God did not create evil.  There are two reasons why evil exists in the world.  The first thing that happened is sometime in the distant past there was once a beautiful angel in heaven with God who had a very prominent place.  His name was Lucifer.   Unfortunately he decided he wanted to be like God.  So he rebelled against God and God kicked him out of heaven and he took a third of the angels with him.  This is described in the Bible in various places.  He was renamed Satan.  That is where Satan came from.  Google origin of Lucifer.

Secondly, after God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden of Eden, there was no evil in the world and no sin.  God commanded them they could eat of any fruit in the garden of Eden except one particular fruit they were forbidden to eat, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.  However, the serpent Satan, came along and tempted Eve to eat the fruit and she fell for the temptation and gave some to Adam and he ate it too.  This is called the Fall of Man. That is the point where man rebelled against God.  God kicked them out of the garden of Eden and it meant that evil had now entered the world as well as death and suffering.  This fallen nature was then passed on to all mankind in subsequent generations because Adam and Eve were the representative head of the human race.  This was not God's will.

Thirdly, God promised to send a Savior further into the future to redeem mankind. But in the meantime as a result of the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, all of their descendants inherit a fallen corrupt nature.  That includes us and all of mankind.  The earth became a corrupt place with evil.  Also it brought death.  The earth was changed from a paradise to a place of sin and evil, where man would have to struggle for survival by the sweat of his brow.

God did not force his Son, Jesus Christ to come to earth.  Jesus is God.  He is part of a triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  So his decision was God's decision.  The only atonement for sin that God accepts as atonement is and always has been the blood of his Son.  That is why Jesus came to earth, died on a cross and shed his blood.  That atones for the sins of all those who believe in him as Savior.

So God does not create evil or cause evil.  That was and is done entirely by mankind and with the temptation of Satan and his host.  God loves mankind and wills that all would come to him through his Son.  Those who come to him that way have their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus and are completely forgiven.  God does not tempt man with evil.  Satan does.  God has given man his word and his Son as the Savior because he loves man.  He grants complete forgiveness by his mercy and grace to those who come on the basis of the shed blood of his Son Jesus.  Nobody can work their way to heaven as many religions teach.

At some point all those who believe in his Son Jesus will be removed from the earth suddenly to be with God forever.  Those who already died in Jesus will also be with him forever.  Jesus will then be returning to earth to destroy all his enemies and establish his rule on earth for a thousand years.  After that he will create a new earth and new heaven where believers will be with him forever. 

Edited by blackbird
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How does your particular religion account for the fact that we can see deeper into the Universe than our star is old? What explanation is there of stellar metallicity which says our star is nowhere near the first star in the entire Universe?

And an end-run...If I'm not supposed to take the Bible, Torah or Quran literally...in terms of creation...why should the I take rest as the word of God?

Anyways...you're busy counting angels.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

No.  That is completely wrong. 

Is God omnipotent? Can god see the past, future and present? If yes let's explore the problems. 

The following may not be 100% but is from memory...Google origin of Lucifer. “- Just to clarify, God made Lucifer, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and start his own clan causing more evil in the world. God makes the choice not to destroy Lucifer either, thus making the choice to encourage more evil. 

“Secondly, after God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden of Eden, there was no evil in the world and no sin.  God commanded them they could eat of any fruit in the garden of Eden except one particular fruit they were forbidden to eat, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.” - Wait, didn't you just say there was no evil? If god made a forbidden fruit, the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, evil already existed as a knowledge set, thus god made evil. Second, why is god testing Adem and Eve by placing a fruit that will destroy them? Sadistic behavior. 

“However, the serpent Satan, came along and tempted Eve to eat the fruit and she fell for the temptation and gave some to Adam and he ate it too. “- Why is Satan even allowed in the garden? If gods knows the future, he could have prevented this event from occurring. Seems like it was gods plan to have satan in the garden.  

This is called the Fall of Man. That is the point where man rebelled against God.  God kicked them out of the garden of Eden and it meant that evil had now entered the world as well as death and suffering.” - Why would god kick Adam and Eve out, he literally put a dangerous fruit there for them to intentionally eat. Imagine a parent placing a package beside the child, telling them not to open it. The moment the child opens the package, they are banished to pain and suffering, again sadistic psychopathic behavior. 

“This fallen nature was then passed on to all mankind in subsequent generations because Adam and Eve were the representative head of the human race.  This was not God's will.” - But God did that to them, of course it was gods will, he could have forgave them, instead he hurts them, sadistic behavior. Parents behave better towards their kids than god does apparently.

“Thirdly, God promised to send a Savior further into the future to redeem mankind.” - Redeem them from what? Gods systematic abuse of them? Again god makes the decision to place them in such a system.

“ But in the meantime as a result of the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, all of their descendants inherit a fallen corrupt nature.” - Again who is at fault, Adam or Eve who have limited knowledge or God who knows everything, yet dangles something dangerous for Eve to pick. Keep in mind Adam and Eve do not make a choice to open this sadistic system, instead they make a choice to gain the knowledge of good and evil, something god could have taught them or at the very lead not put such knowledge accessible to them.

“ That includes us and all of mankind.” - Wait why are the sins of the fathers handed down to the sons? Does god not understand the choice of one is not the choice of many?  

  “The earth became a corrupt place with evil.” - Why did god do nothing to stop this? Being all powerful and having all knowledge yet not acting on such evil seems to be immoral.

“Also it brought death.” - God put this in the system, again god is at fault for having a system that causes death.

 “ The earth was changed from a paradise to a place of sin and evil, where man would have to struggle for survival by the sweat of his brow.” - God made it so this would occur in his system, sadistic behavior.  

God did not force his Son, Jesus Christ to come to earth.  Jesus is God.  He is part of a triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  So his decision was God's decision.  The only atonement for sin that God accepts as atonement is and always has been the blood of his Son.” - I may be less moral than this god figure, but I would never require the blood of my son to be shed so I could forgive random people, seems like an abusive relationship. Again why is god so interested in pain and blood, seems quite evil and sadistic, are we sure we are not confusing god for Satan here?  

 “That is why Jesus came to earth, died on a cross and shed his blood.  That atones for the sins of all those who believe in him as Savior. “- Seems unnecessary since god could just forgive mankind without any blood shed. Again god made a system with sin, why? Seems unnecessary and sadistic.

“So God does not create evil or cause evil.  That was and is done entirely by mankind and with the temptation of Satan and his host.” - God literally put a fruit that contained the knowledge of good and evil, thus god created knowledge of evil. Not only that God made a system in which once the fruit is eaten evil enters the world. Seems like god is the creator of evil, man just found the knowledge.  

 “ God loves mankind and wills that all would come to him through his Son.  Those who come to him that way have their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus and are completely forgiven. “- Sins that god created with his sadistic system. Again seems immoral. God loves mankind enough to allow them to suffer and banish them to hell, seems more like gods love is conditional.

  “God does not tempt man with evil.  Satan does.” - Well god does, after all god put a fruit right in front of Adam and Eve. Also god created Satan with full knowledge of Satans abilities, thus god made satan knowing evil would flow through satan, that makes god pretty evil. If you create a person knowing full well they will destroy thousands of peoples lives, you are still responsible for creating that person, and thus destroying thousands of peoples lives. Again immoral. 

 “Jesus will then be returning to earth to destroy all his enemies and establish his rule on earth for a thousand years.  After that he will create a new earth and new heaven where believers will be with him forever.” - Are you sure about this? God/Jesus will destroy ie kill people? That seems like god is a serial murderer and a psychopath. What gives god the right to kill people, after all killing is evil.

As you can see, this view of a god is problematic. God is quite evil or at least sadistic in his behavior towards humans.

 

Edited by Winston
Underlined quotations for ease of readability.
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11 hours ago, Winston said:

Is God omnipotent? Can god see the past, future and present? If yes let's explore the problems. 

The following may not be 100% but is from memory...Google origin of Lucifer. “- Just to clarify, God made Lucifer, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and start his own clan causing more evil in the world. God makes the choice not to destroy Lucifer either, thus making the choice to encourage more evil. 

“Secondly, after God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden of Eden, there was no evil in the world and no sin.  God commanded them they could eat of any fruit in the garden of Eden except one particular fruit they were forbidden to eat, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.” - Wait, didn't you just say there was no evil? If god made a forbidden fruit, the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, evil already existed as a knowledge set, thus god made evil. Second, why is god testing Adem and Eve by placing a fruit that will destroy them? Sadistic behavior. 

“However, the serpent Satan, came along and tempted Eve to eat the fruit and she fell for the temptation and gave some to Adam and he ate it too. “- Why is Satan even allowed in the garden? If gods knows the future, he could have prevented this event from occurring. Seems like it was gods plan to have satan in the garden.  

This is called the Fall of Man. That is the point where man rebelled against God.  God kicked them out of the garden of Eden and it meant that evil had now entered the world as well as death and suffering.” - Why would god kick Adam and Eve out, he literally put a dangerous fruit there for them to intentionally eat. Imagine a parent placing a package beside the child, telling them not to open it. The moment the child opens the package, they are banished to pain and suffering, again sadistic psychopathic behavior. 

“This fallen nature was then passed on to all mankind in subsequent generations because Adam and Eve were the representative head of the human race.  This was not God's will.” - But God did that to them, of course it was gods will, he could have forgave them, instead he hurts them, sadistic behavior. Parents behave better towards their kids than god does apparently.

“Thirdly, God promised to send a Savior further into the future to redeem mankind.” - Redeem them from what? Gods systematic abuse of them? Again god makes the decision to place them in such a system.

“ But in the meantime as a result of the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, all of their descendants inherit a fallen corrupt nature.” - Again who is at fault, Adam or Eve who have limited knowledge or God who knows everything, yet dangles something dangerous for Eve to pick. Keep in mind Adam and Eve do not make a choice to open this sadistic system, instead they make a choice to gain the knowledge of good and evil, something god could have taught them or at the very lead not put such knowledge accessible to them.

“ That includes us and all of mankind.” - Wait why are the sins of the fathers handed down to the sons? Does god not understand the choice of one is not the choice of many?  

  “The earth became a corrupt place with evil.” - Why did god do nothing to stop this? Being all powerful and having all knowledge yet not acting on such evil seems to be immoral.

“Also it brought death.” - God put this in the system, again god is at fault for having a system that causes death.

 “ The earth was changed from a paradise to a place of sin and evil, where man would have to struggle for survival by the sweat of his brow.” - God made it so this would occur in his system, sadistic behavior.  

God did not force his Son, Jesus Christ to come to earth.  Jesus is God.  He is part of a triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  So his decision was God's decision.  The only atonement for sin that God accepts as atonement is and always has been the blood of his Son.” - I may be less moral than this god figure, but I would never require the blood of my son to be shed so I could forgive random people, seems like an abusive relationship. Again why is god so interested in pain and blood, seems quite evil and sadistic, are we sure we are not confusing god for Satan here?  

 “That is why Jesus came to earth, died on a cross and shed his blood.  That atones for the sins of all those who believe in him as Savior. “- Seems unnecessary since god could just forgive mankind without any blood shed. Again god made a system with sin, why? Seems unnecessary and sadistic.

“So God does not create evil or cause evil.  That was and is done entirely by mankind and with the temptation of Satan and his host.” - God literally put a fruit that contained the knowledge of good and evil, thus god created knowledge of evil. Not only that God made a system in which once the fruit is eaten evil enters the world. Seems like god is the creator of evil, man just found the knowledge.  

 “ God loves mankind and wills that all would come to him through his Son.  Those who come to him that way have their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus and are completely forgiven. “- Sins that god created with his sadistic system. Again seems immoral. God loves mankind enough to allow them to suffer and banish them to hell, seems more like gods love is conditional.

  “God does not tempt man with evil.  Satan does.” - Well god does, after all god put a fruit right in front of Adam and Eve. Also god created Satan with full knowledge of Satans abilities, thus god made satan knowing evil would flow through satan, that makes god pretty evil. If you create a person knowing full well they will destroy thousands of peoples lives, you are still responsible for creating that person, and thus destroying thousands of peoples lives. Again immoral. 

 “Jesus will then be returning to earth to destroy all his enemies and establish his rule on earth for a thousand years.  After that he will create a new earth and new heaven where believers will be with him forever.” - Are you sure about this? God/Jesus will destroy ie kill people? That seems like god is a serial murderer and a psychopath. What gives god the right to kill people, after all killing is evil.

As you can see, this view of a god is problematic. God is quite evil or at least sadistic in his behavior towards humans.

 

Firstly, obviously God created Lucifer (later to become Satan), and mankind with a free will.  He did not create robots.  That was God's choice.  He appears to believe in giving free will or the will to choose between right and wrong to his created beings.  Why would he bother creating a bunch of robots who did exactly what he commanded?  You assume God should only have created robots and a world where there was no freedom of thought or will.

Secondly, how or why God created everything is God's business.  Who are you to question God's choosing to give a free will to his creation?  God is the ultimate judge of what is good and evil.  So by definition God is not evil and cannot do any evil.  Satan and his host chose to rebel against God.  Man (Adam and Eve) chose to rebel against God's command.  That was entirely their choice. You misunderstood that somehow.  The Almighty God is the Creator of everything, and by definition defines what is good and what is evil.  Nobody judges God and tells him what is good and what is evil.  He is the final omnipotent judge.   Man cannot judge God.  Man is as a speck of dust in the universe and depends on God for his existence.  There is no higher power to appeal to.  You make the mistake of thinking you can sit in judgment of God.  It is quite possible and likely I am the one who has not explained things in the proper way and perhaps gave you the impression that God is evil, but that would be a huge error on my part and / or on your part for misunderstandings.  God is completely righteous in all his actions and judgments. It is us who do not comprehend that.  That is why God is absolutely Holy and Righteous.  Mankind inherited a corrupt nature from Adam and Eve.  They did not inherit the guilt for their disobedience or sin.  But the corrupt nature or wicked heart means mankind has a tendency to do evil.  Don't forget God created life and because he is God, he has the right to take it away at any time.  He owes nobody anything.  He is God.  

The electrical power is going off here shortly for the day, so I can't answer this fully this morning, but will try to respond more later.

Edited by blackbird
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13 hours ago, Winston said:

Is God omnipotent? Can god see the past, future and present? If yes let's explore the problems. 

The following may not be 100% but is from memory...Google origin of Lucifer. “- Just to clarify, God made Lucifer, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and start his own clan causing more evil in the world. God makes the choice not to destroy Lucifer either, thus making the choice to encourage more evil. 

“Secondly, after God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden of Eden, there was no evil in the world and no sin.  God commanded them they could eat of any fruit in the garden of Eden except one particular fruit they were forbidden to eat, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.” - Wait, didn't you just say there was no evil? If god made a forbidden fruit, the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, evil already existed as a knowledge set, thus god made evil. Second, why is god testing Adem and Eve by placing a fruit that will destroy them? Sadistic behavior. 

“However, the serpent Satan, came along and tempted Eve to eat the fruit and she fell for the temptation and gave some to Adam and he ate it too. “- Why is Satan even allowed in the garden? If gods knows the future, he could have prevented this event from occurring. Seems like it was gods plan to have satan in the garden.  

This is called the Fall of Man. That is the point where man rebelled against God.  God kicked them out of the garden of Eden and it meant that evil had now entered the world as well as death and suffering.” - Why would god kick Adam and Eve out, he literally put a dangerous fruit there for them to intentionally eat. Imagine a parent placing a package beside the child, telling them not to open it. The moment the child opens the package, they are banished to pain and suffering, again sadistic psychopathic behavior. 

“This fallen nature was then passed on to all mankind in subsequent generations because Adam and Eve were the representative head of the human race.  This was not God's will.” - But God did that to them, of course it was gods will, he could have forgave them, instead he hurts them, sadistic behavior. Parents behave better towards their kids than god does apparently.

“Thirdly, God promised to send a Savior further into the future to redeem mankind.” - Redeem them from what? Gods systematic abuse of them? Again god makes the decision to place them in such a system.

“ But in the meantime as a result of the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, all of their descendants inherit a fallen corrupt nature.” - Again who is at fault, Adam or Eve who have limited knowledge or God who knows everything, yet dangles something dangerous for Eve to pick. Keep in mind Adam and Eve do not make a choice to open this sadistic system, instead they make a choice to gain the knowledge of good and evil, something god could have taught them or at the very lead not put such knowledge accessible to them.

“ That includes us and all of mankind.” - Wait why are the sins of the fathers handed down to the sons? Does god not understand the choice of one is not the choice of many?  

  “The earth became a corrupt place with evil.” - Why did god do nothing to stop this? Being all powerful and having all knowledge yet not acting on such evil seems to be immoral.

“Also it brought death.” - God put this in the system, again god is at fault for having a system that causes death.

 “ The earth was changed from a paradise to a place of sin and evil, where man would have to struggle for survival by the sweat of his brow.” - God made it so this would occur in his system, sadistic behavior.  

God did not force his Son, Jesus Christ to come to earth.  Jesus is God.  He is part of a triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  So his decision was God's decision.  The only atonement for sin that God accepts as atonement is and always has been the blood of his Son.” - I may be less moral than this god figure, but I would never require the blood of my son to be shed so I could forgive random people, seems like an abusive relationship. Again why is god so interested in pain and blood, seems quite evil and sadistic, are we sure we are not confusing god for Satan here?  

 “That is why Jesus came to earth, died on a cross and shed his blood.  That atones for the sins of all those who believe in him as Savior. “- Seems unnecessary since god could just forgive mankind without any blood shed. Again god made a system with sin, why? Seems unnecessary and sadistic.

“So God does not create evil or cause evil.  That was and is done entirely by mankind and with the temptation of Satan and his host.” - God literally put a fruit that contained the knowledge of good and evil, thus god created knowledge of evil. Not only that God made a system in which once the fruit is eaten evil enters the world. Seems like god is the creator of evil, man just found the knowledge.  

 “ God loves mankind and wills that all would come to him through his Son.  Those who come to him that way have their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus and are completely forgiven. “- Sins that god created with his sadistic system. Again seems immoral. God loves mankind enough to allow them to suffer and banish them to hell, seems more like gods love is conditional.

  “God does not tempt man with evil.  Satan does.” - Well god does, after all god put a fruit right in front of Adam and Eve. Also god created Satan with full knowledge of Satans abilities, thus god made satan knowing evil would flow through satan, that makes god pretty evil. If you create a person knowing full well they will destroy thousands of peoples lives, you are still responsible for creating that person, and thus destroying thousands of peoples lives. Again immoral. 

 “Jesus will then be returning to earth to destroy all his enemies and establish his rule on earth for a thousand years.  After that he will create a new earth and new heaven where believers will be with him forever.” - Are you sure about this? God/Jesus will destroy ie kill people? That seems like god is a serial murderer and a psychopath. What gives god the right to kill people, after all killing is evil.

As you can see, this view of a god is problematic. God is quite evil or at least sadistic in his behavior towards humans.

 

Power outage was cancelled due to snow.

No, I don't think God created evil or caused it.  God had foreknowledge of everything.  The Westminster Confession of Faith puts it this way:

Chapter 3   Of God's Eternal Decree

1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;  yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty of contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

This section of the Confession is one interpretation of the Bible.  It is a confession;  therefore it is not infallible.  But it is a reasonable explanation.  This teaches us:   Quote   (1) that God has predetermined all things that happen,  (2) that this predetermination (plan) is eternal, (3) that there is nothing too large or small to be excluded from this predetermination, (4) that this does not make God the author of sin, (5) that God does not force men to do what they do not want to do (in the way of sin), (6) that this does not destroy "freedom" or cause-and-effect relationships (rather, it is the very basis upon which these exist), and finally, (7) that this sovereign plan of God is not "conditioned upon" anything foreseen by him (which would make God dependent upon something outside himself).  Unquote  - from Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes by G.I. Williamson

Regarding Adam and Eve, God told them they could eat any fruit of the garden, except one fruit in the middle of the garden.  That was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  This was a test of obedience to God.  They ate of the fruit and failed the test of obedience to God.  So God never forced them to eat it.  That was entirely their own choice.  

As for your comment "God could just forgive man".  In God's economy, that is not how it works.  There must be a sacrifice acceptable to God.  Man does not decide what that is.  God does not hand out forgiveness for offences arbitrarily.  God is a just God.  The Bible teaches any sin against God must be atoned for but only by God's pre-determined way.  Atonement is a central teaching through the Bible.  Only God's Son was an acceptable atonement for man's sin in God's economy.

"5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: {hast…: or, thou hast fitted me} 6  In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure." Hebrews 10:5 KJV   An atonement cannot be made by man.  The Old Testament sacrifices on the alters offered by Israel were only a picture of symbol of the coming Messiah or Savior Jesus Christ.  The only sacrifice acceptable to God was the death and shed blood of his Son.  That is the only basis on which forgiveness of sin God recognizes or offers to man.

"11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:11, 12 KJV

"26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."  Hebrews 9: 26-28 KJV

 

 

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On 12/4/2021 at 10:57 AM, blackbird said:

I have answered that at length to Winston on above posts on or around Nov. 18 to 23rd.  With links to the creation.com website article.  There are many scientists who believe in creation rather than evolution for a number of reasons.  Evolution has been debunked in a number of ways.  Creation.com goes into a lot of that.  There are thousands of articles and videos on the subject.  God created the various species of creatures.  There is no evidence that they evolved from one species to another.  For instance a dog did not evolve from a fish.  A bird did not evolve from an animal.  The genetic codes in creatures has to have been placed their by an infinitely powerful designer Creator we call God.  The information in the codes did not evolve.  It is believed by many scientists information cannot create itself.  There are mutations that cause various kinds of animals within a species, but that does not require new information.  For example various kinds of dogs could have developed from an earlier canine. That is not evolution.  It could be a result of mutations and adaptability.  Evolution is just a theory, it is not science.  Science is proven facts and is repeatable by experiment.  Evolution has never been proven and in fact has been debunked by many scientists.  It is just someone's speculation of where everything came from but is full of holes and problems.  That is not science.  It is more of a cult.  As I explained above the basic cell has been found to be extremely complex and required a Creator to create and place the various components with the information and machinery within it for to operate and multiply.  How a cell operates requires complex information systems beyond man's computer systems. There is an article on creation.com that goes into that.

Here is a picture of e-coli's electric apparatus to give an idea of complexity of it.

It comes from an article on the e-coli motor at:

E. Coli’s optimal design electric motors - creation.com

"Did you know that the ‘simple’ bacterium, E. coli, swims through our gut using sophisticated, nanoscale, electric motors? Each of these motors spins a whip-like flagellum at the super-high speed of up to 22,800 revolutions per minute (some bacteria reach 102,000 rpm!1). The spinning flagellum acts as a propeller. E. coli’s motor is about 45 nm (nanometres, billionths of a metre) wide—2,000 could be lined up across the width of a human hair! Evolutionists have called it a “remarkable nanomachine”,2 “a sophisticated rotary motor”,3 and “an example of elegance in molecular engineering.”4"

 

e-colis-electric-motor-and-electrical-system.jpg

I in no way have the expertise to explain the building blocks of life to someone who obviously knows even less about the subject than I do, but I'm pretty comfortable in my opinion as it Is in the consensus of EVERY credible scientist.

Let me be clear, even though I vehemently disagree with you opinion I would fight for your right to express it.

Sadly in every response to me you have ignored my central premise, which is to believe the Bible ( or any other holy book) you MUST presuppose its truth, everything you said is at best ad-hoc.

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2 hours ago, SkyHigh said:

Sadly in every response to me you have ignored my central premise, which is to believe the Bible ( or any other holy book) you MUST presuppose its truth, everything you said is at best ad-hoc.

No, I did not ignore your central premise about believing the Bible.  In fact, I gave you the link to Jeff Schreve's video message explaining why the Bible is credible and should be believed.  But you said you could not sit through it.  So you are the one who declined to hear the reasons why the Bible is authentic and believable.  In part of the message he describes how prophecies that were later fulfilled prove the authenticity of the Bible and that it came from God.  The chance of such foretelling of future events coming to pass purely by coincidence is mathematically an impossibility.  Other strong evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the fact that is confirmed by many eyewitnesses.  All of that is recorded in the gospels or first four books of the New Testament.  As I explained the fact the apostles suffered and some died for what they believed could only mean what they claim is true.  Nobody chooses to die for a lie.  That means what Jesus said is factual and it means the Bible did come from God by inspiration through the authors of the books of the Bible.

The link again is:

Why Should I Believe the Bible? - Pastor Jeff Schreve - Bing video

quote

1. FULFILLED PROPHECIES

Sports analysts, political pundits, and astrologers seem to enjoy making predictions about the future, but their failure rate quickly reveals how inept humans are at foretelling events even just a month in advance. This is one of the reasons the Bible’s fulfilled prophecies are so astounding!

Over and over, the authors of the Bible rightly foretold future events, often hundreds of years in advance. The Bible is filled with hundreds of specific, detailed prophecies about people, places, and events—many of which have already come to pass. Consider a few of the prophecies made regarding Jesus. Of course, long before Jesus was born, the Old Testament prophets told us that a Savior was coming who would make a way for people to be forgiven of their sins and reconciled to God. The Old Testament prophesied this Savior would:

•  be born of the seed of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3, 22:18)
•  be born into the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)
•  be born into the lineage of David (2 Samuel 7:12f)
•  be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
•  be born to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14)
•  come while the temple was still standing (Malachi 3:1)
•  open the eyes of the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, and cause the lame to walk (Isaiah 35:5-6)
•  be rejected by His own people (Psalm 118:22; 1 Peter 2:7)

The Scriptures also foretold the precise time in history when He would die (Daniel 9:24-26), how He would die (Psalm 22:16-18; Isaiah 53; Zechariah 12:10), and that He would rise from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 53:10-12; Acts 2:27-32). These are just a few of the prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus’ life.  Unquote  10 Reasons You Can Trust the Bible | Archaeology, Prophecies + more! (alwaysbeready.com)

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23 hours ago, blackbird said:

No, I don't think God created evil or caused it.  God had foreknowledge of everything.  The Westminster Confession of Faith puts it this way:

Secondly, how or why God created everything is God's business.  Who are you to question God's choosing to give a free will to his creation? - Well this this god figure wants anyone to believe in him, he better exhibit leadership traits and answer to the people. I can most certainly question gods actions, how else would I systematically know if god is good or evil?

God is the ultimate judge of what is good and evil.  So by definition God is not evil and cannot do any evil.  - Actually god is evil, in order for there to be evil in the world, god must have put it there. Thus by definition god is part evil and part good. 

Satan and his host chose to rebel against God.  Man (Adam and Eve) chose to rebel against God's command.  That was entirely their choice. You misunderstood that somehow.- Well if god setup the system and created Adam and Eve, knowing how the future was going to play out, god knew their choices, thus god created Adam and Eve with an internal intention to rebel against God.  God is the one who created Adam and Eve with an internal drive to seek further knowledge, thus god already planned for Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, no choice there. Why is god against the seeking of knowledge?

 Nobody judges God and tells him what is good and what is evil.- Well there is the problem, if you start judging God maybe you will find his killing and harming of people evil. I question maybe God is afraid of those that judge him.   

Man cannot judge God.  - Why not? Man, if not anything, is the ultimate judge of god. This sounds like god is covering up his evil behavior. 

Man is as a speck of dust in the universe and depends on God for his existence. - No, I do not believe in a god, no dependence required. 

You make the mistake of thinking you can sit in judgment of God. - I can and just did, god is evil by the very rules he sets upon others. No one should follow a leader that does not follow his own rules. 

 Don't forget God created life and because he is God, he has the right to take it away at any time.  He owes nobody anything.  He is God.  - I fundamentally disagree, just because I create a living thing, does not mean I have the “right” to hurt or kill that thing, that would be evil, sadistic psychopathic behavior. God exhibits this behavior. Should we really follow gods psychopathic sadistic ways? If is above man and god can kill, anyone can kill. 

No, I don't think God created evil or caused it.  God had foreknowledge of everything.  - If god truly has foreknowledge of everything that absolutely makes god evil, it means he knows and does nothing about the innocent rapes, murders, disease or sadistic behavior of others. God also created Satan knowing Satan would be “evil” thus god created an evil being with intent.  

(4) that this does not make God the author of sin,- How was this concluded? God made the system in which sin exists, thus god created sin. 

 (5) that God does not force men to do what they do not want to do (in the way of sin),- Yes god does, god created man, created the knowledge of sin, thus god created sin and god created man so that he would sin. 

 (6) that this does not destroy "freedom" or cause-and-effect relationships (rather, it is the very basis upon which these exist),-  “predetermination “ is by definition fixed, meaning all choices made by man have already been determined by god, including eating of the fruit, otherwise God could not have seen the future in that event or predetermined that event. 

Regarding Adam and Eve, God told them they could eat any fruit of the garden, except one fruit in the middle of the garden.  That was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  This was a test of obedience to God. - Again why is god testing Adam and Eve knowing what will happen? Sadistic behavior. 

They ate of the fruit and failed the test of obedience to God.  So God never forced them to eat it.  That was entirely their own choice.  - God created them, thus god forced them. Humans do not have a choice if god created them with predetermined actions, knowledge of the future. God overreacted, and sadistically cast them into a horrible world. This was gods doing, not Adam and Eve. 

As for your comment "God could just forgive man".  In God's economy, that is not how it works. - God does not follow his own forgiveness recommendations? Why would anyone follow someone that does not follow their own recommendations? 

There must be a sacrifice acceptable to God. - Sacrifice, so god is sadistic. 

 Man does not decide what that is.  God does not hand out forgiveness for offences arbitrarily.- Instead brutally murders and hurts people by casting them into a world of sin, sadistic psychopathic behavior again. Imagine telling a child not to eat a fruit on the kitchen table, when the child takes a bite you overreact and sadistically harm them, telling them they should make sacrifice for your forgiveness. The more I understand God from this perspective the more god is an evil sadistic individual.

God is a just God.  The Bible teaches any sin against God must be atoned for but only by God's pre-determined way.  Atonement is a central teaching through the Bible.  Only God's Son was an acceptable atonement for man's sin in God's economy.- God was please with the crucifixion and torture of his son. Gods pleasure is pain, suffering and death. That sounds like a sadistic psychopath who craves pain, suffering and death. 

Does any parent require the death or shedding of blood in order to forgive a random person? I think not, that would be sadistic psychopathy behavior. 

 The only sacrifice acceptable to God was the death and shed blood of his Son.  That is the only basis on which forgiveness of sin God recognizes or offers to man.- .  Again how do you not see this as sadistic psychopathic desires/behavior?

Edited by Winston
Underlined quotations for ease of readability.
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8 hours ago, Winston said:

Secondly, how or why God created everything is God's business.  Who are you to question God's choosing to give a free will to his creation? - Well this this god figure wants anyone to believe in him, he better exhibit leadership traits and answer to the people. I can most certainly question gods actions, how else would I systematically know if god is good or evil?

God is the ultimate judge of what is good and evil.  So by definition God is not evil and cannot do any evil.  - Actually god is evil, in order for there to be evil in the world, god must have put it there. Thus by definition god is part evil and part good. 

Satan and his host chose to rebel against God.  Man (Adam and Eve) chose to rebel against God's command.  That was entirely their choice. You misunderstood that somehow.- Well if god setup the system and created Adam and Eve, knowing how the future was going to play out, god knew their choices, thus god created Adam and Eve with an internal intention to rebel against God.  God is the one who created Adam and Eve with an internal drive to seek further knowledge, thus god already planned for Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, no choice there. Why is god against the seeking of knowledge?

 Nobody judges God and tells him what is good and what is evil.- Well there is the problem, if you start judging God maybe you will find his killing and harming of people evil. I question maybe God is afraid of those that judge him.   

Man cannot judge God.  - Why not? Man, if not anything, is the ultimate judge of god. This sounds like god is covering up his evil behavior. 

Man is as a speck of dust in the universe and depends on God for his existence. - No, I do not believe in a god, no dependence required. 

You make the mistake of thinking you can sit in judgment of God. - I can and just did, god is evil by the very rules he sets upon others. No one should follow a leader that does not follow his own rules. 

 Don't forget God created life and because he is God, he has the right to take it away at any time.  He owes nobody anything.  He is God.  - I fundamentally disagree, just because I create a living thing, does not mean I have the “right” to hurt or kill that thing, that would be evil, sadistic psychopathic behavior. God exhibits this behavior. Should we really follow gods psychopathic sadistic ways? If is above man and god can kill, anyone can kill. 

No, I don't think God created evil or caused it.  God had foreknowledge of everything.  - If god truly has foreknowledge of everything that absolutely makes god evil, it means he knows and does nothing about the innocent rapes, murders, disease or sadistic behavior of others. God also created Satan knowing Satan would be “evil” thus god created an evil being with intent.  

(4) that this does not make God the author of sin,- How was this concluded? God made the system in which sin exists, thus god created sin. 

 (5) that God does not force men to do what they do not want to do (in the way of sin),- Yes god does, god created man, created the knowledge of sin, thus god created sin and god created man so that he would sin. 

 (6) that this does not destroy "freedom" or cause-and-effect relationships (rather, it is the very basis upon which these exist),-  “predetermination “ is by definition fixed, meaning all choices made by man have already been determined by god, including eating of the fruit, otherwise God could not have seen the future in that event or predetermined that event. 

Regarding Adam and Eve, God told them they could eat any fruit of the garden, except one fruit in the middle of the garden.  That was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  This was a test of obedience to God. - Again why is god testing Adam and Eve knowing what will happen? Sadistic behavior. 

They ate of the fruit and failed the test of obedience to God.  So God never forced them to eat it.  That was entirely their own choice.  - God created them, thus god forced them. Humans do not have a choice if god created them with predetermined actions, knowledge of the future. God overreacted, and sadistically cast them into a horrible world. This was gods doing, not Adam and Eve. 

As for your comment "God could just forgive man".  In God's economy, that is not how it works. - God does not follow his own forgiveness recommendations? Why would anyone follow someone that does not follow their own recommendations? 

There must be a sacrifice acceptable to God. - Sacrifice, so god is sadistic. 

 Man does not decide what that is.  God does not hand out forgiveness for offences arbitrarily.- Instead brutally murders and hurts people by casting them into a world of sin, sadistic psychopathic behavior again. Imagine telling a child not to eat a fruit on the kitchen table, when the child takes a bite you overreact and sadistically harm them, telling them they should make sacrifice for your forgiveness. The more I understand God from this perspective the more god is an evil sadistic individual.

God is a just God.  The Bible teaches any sin against God must be atoned for but only by God's pre-determined way.  Atonement is a central teaching through the Bible.  Only God's Son was an acceptable atonement for man's sin in God's economy.- God was please with the crucifixion and torture of his son. Gods pleasure is pain, suffering and death. That sounds like a sadistic psychopath who craves pain, suffering and death. 

Does any parent require the death or shedding of blood in order to forgive a random person? I think not, that would be sadistic psychopathy behavior. 

 The only sacrifice acceptable to God was the death and shed blood of his Son.  That is the only basis on which forgiveness of sin God recognizes or offers to man.- .  Again how do you not see this as sadistic psychopathic desires/behavior?

Your nonsensical claims that God is evil are easily shown to be nothing more than irrational ramblings.

Since by definition God is the reference point of what is good and evil, and you claim to be able to judge God, what is your reference point for such claims?  How do you determine what is good or evil?  Is it your human reasoning or personal opinion?  Tell us what is your standard to be able to make such judgments or claims?  If you have nothing, then it is just your own invention or imaginings. 

If the entire universe is His creation, then “morality,” including life and death, is by definition under His control.  So if you don't accept God as the standard of right and wrong or good and evil, then all you have is your own ramblings which have no authority in a universe that you are a mere speck in and was created by God, the only absolute standard of good and evil.

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9 hours ago, Winston said:

The only sacrifice acceptable to God was the death and shed blood of his Son.  That is the only basis on which forgiveness of sin God recognizes or offers to man.- .  Again how do you not see this as sadistic psychopathic desires/behavior?

Here is an article that you need to read.

In part it says :

"The self-destructive logic of atheism

It is in relation to the issue of the ultimate source and origin of human consciousness and moral values, that atheism fails the test of credibility and truthfulness. I first learned this from the opening chapters of C.S. Lewis’s brilliantly argued book Miracles, as well from his much simpler and more limited treatment of this issue in Mere Christianity.

Let me therefore try and explain, in my own words, Lewis’s central argument against atheism. Not only because it challenges us to think clearly about the problem of evil, but also because other philosophers have reached similar conclusions about the issues Lewis raises.[5]

If, as atheists insist, there is no God or divine purpose behind the universe, and humans are purely physical beings – biological machines without souls or spirits – the implications are logically self-destructive for atheism. If atheism is true then all our thoughts and values, and all our deepest convictions, including our belief in the validity of logical argument and the existence of mathematical and scientific truths, are simply an accidental by-product of our cerebral biochemistry and the mindless movement of atoms. This means we are deluding ourselves when we think that we have free will, and with it, that inner freedom to weigh evidence and judge between conflicting arguments without which there can be no successful pursuit of truth, or acquisition of knowledge. In reality, all our reasoning and conclusions are nothing more than the unplanned result of a long chain of entirely random non-rational physical causes over which we have no control.

In other words, if we have no souls and no spiritual connection to God as the ultimate source of reason and truth, it follows that our brains, and therefore all our mental activity, are imprisoned within a process of physical determinism that discredits all thinking. We cannot be sure that any of our thoughts correspond to reality, moral or scientific, since we are biologically conditioned to think them regardless of whether they are true or not. By discrediting all thinking, including their own, atheists cut their own throats philosophically. Their view of ultimate reality is therefore self-refuting."   For the full article:

Evil and God: Reflections of a Former Atheist - bethinking.org

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11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Sloppy workmanship. Gamblor is rather ham-fisted.

;)

 

 

Well...they are inconvenient questions. Note how I'm roundly ignored.

Faith as a given, one must also put aside common sense to go with ancient religions as truth over what our senses...and real science... are telling us.

Would God be THAT inefficient as to need trillions of galaxies to get one with a single example of intelligent life?

Really? Really??? Okay....

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10 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

And to be clear, I think Jesus as a philosopher is bang-on. Do unto others...

I absolutely agree, although that ideology may have been around before Jesus. 

But the entire religion is based on a sadistic psychopathic god, that takes pleasure in torturing and killing an innocents, one of which is Jesus. Biblically, god repeats this sadistic behavior and actual murder.

Why would someone follow a religious ideology when the supposed creator does not follow his own rules?  This baffles me.

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45 minutes ago, Winston said:

I absolutely agree, although that ideology may have been around before Jesus. 

But the entire religion is based on a sadistic psychopathic god, that takes pleasure in torturing and killing an innocents, one of which is Jesus. Biblically, god repeats this sadistic behavior and actual murder.

Why would someone follow a religious ideology when the supposed creator does not follow his own rules?  This baffles me.

 

We do not have a clue what the historical Jesus said or did in actuality.  As some have pointed-out, his miracles are well within the realm of Penn & Teller. What we do know is that a cult sprang up around him post execution that eventually changed the Roman Empire into a far different entity.  

Books such as Revelations...when looked at historically...were written LONG after Jesus's death. Jesus said none of that crap...basically.  

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On 12/6/2021 at 7:03 PM, blackbird said:

No, I did not ignore your central premise about believing the Bible.  In fact, I gave you the link to Jeff Schreve's video message explaining why the Bible is credible and should be believed.  But you said you could not sit through it.  So you are the one who declined to hear the reasons why the Bible is authentic and believable.  In part of the message he describes how prophecies that were later fulfilled prove the authenticity of the Bible and that it came from God.  The chance of such foretelling of future events coming to pass purely by coincidence is mathematically an impossibility.  Other strong evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the fact that is confirmed by many eyewitnesses.  All of that is recorded in the gospels or first four books of the New Testament.  As I explained the fact the apostles suffered and some died for what they believed could only mean what they claim is true.  Nobody chooses to die for a lie.  That means what Jesus said is factual and it means the Bible did come from God by inspiration through the authors of the books of the Bible.

The link again is:

Why Should I Believe the Bible? - Pastor Jeff Schreve - Bing video

quote

1. FULFILLED PROPHECIES

Sports analysts, political pundits, and astrologers seem to enjoy making predictions about the future, but their failure rate quickly reveals how inept humans are at foretelling events even just a month in advance. This is one of the reasons the Bible’s fulfilled prophecies are so astounding!

Over and over, the authors of the Bible rightly foretold future events, often hundreds of years in advance. The Bible is filled with hundreds of specific, detailed prophecies about people, places, and events—many of which have already come to pass. Consider a few of the prophecies made regarding Jesus. Of course, long before Jesus was born, the Old Testament prophets told us that a Savior was coming who would make a way for people to be forgiven of their sins and reconciled to God. The Old Testament prophesied this Savior would:

•  be born of the seed of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3, 22:18)
•  be born into the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)
•  be born into the lineage of David (2 Samuel 7:12f)
•  be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
•  be born to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14)
•  come while the temple was still standing (Malachi 3:1)
•  open the eyes of the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, and cause the lame to walk (Isaiah 35:5-6)
•  be rejected by His own people (Psalm 118:22; 1 Peter 2:7)

The Scriptures also foretold the precise time in history when He would die (Daniel 9:24-26), how He would die (Psalm 22:16-18; Isaiah 53; Zechariah 12:10), and that He would rise from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 53:10-12; Acts 2:27-32). These are just a few of the prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus’ life.  Unquote  10 Reasons You Can Trust the Bible | Archaeology, Prophecies + more! (alwaysbeready.com)

No Sir, you gave me a link to a pastor(someone who already believes in the Bible) saying why the book he presupposes the truth of is better than holy books he doesn't subscribe to,  if you want to actually address my point find me a practicing Hindu that makes an argument why the Christian Bible is superior to the Bhagavad Gita.

Then you pointed me to a propaganda website (creation.com) where non scientists make unsubstantiated claims to rationalize their ad-hoc explanations,  please provide any peer reviewed scientific papers that support any of these assertions.

As for your so called "prophecies "I could most likely prove that none are actually prophetic (though I don't know for sure your specific situation,  I know more about the Bible than many, many, many, self proclaimed Christians) but for the purpose of this conversation I'll keep it general. 

1: when athors have access to the original  documents (in this case the old Testament) it isn't very difficult to tailor a new document ( in this case the new Testament,  written at best 30 years after Jesus's supposed death) to fulfill these " prophecies ". In Harry Potter there was prophecie about a boy born on a specific date that would vanquish evil, by your logic that would make Harry Potter a messiah and the novels sacred text

2: There exists a whole group of people that believed (and still do) in the old Testament,  yet completely disagree with your claims of prophecie they're called Jews.

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2 hours ago, SkyHigh said:

No Sir, you gave me a link to a pastor(someone who already believes in the Bible) saying why the book he presupposes the truth of is better than holy books he doesn't subscribe to,  if you want to actually address my point find me a practicing Hindu that makes an argument why the Christian Bible is superior to the Bhagavad Gita.

Then you pointed me to a propaganda website (creation.com) where non scientists make unsubstantiated claims to rationalize their ad-hoc explanations,  please provide any peer reviewed scientific papers that support any of these assertions.

As for your so called "prophecies "I could most likely prove that none are actually prophetic (though I don't know for sure your specific situation,  I know more about the Bible than many, many, many, self proclaimed Christians) but for the purpose of this conversation I'll keep it general. 

1: when athors have access to the original  documents (in this case the old Testament) it isn't very difficult to tailor a new document ( in this case the new Testament,  written at best 30 years after Jesus's supposed death) to fulfill these " prophecies ". In Harry Potter there was prophecie about a boy born on a specific date that would vanquish evil, by your logic that would make Harry Potter a messiah and the novels sacred text

2: There exists a whole group of people that believed (and still do) in the old Testament,  yet completely disagree with your claims of prophecie they're called Jews.

  You don't want to listen or read anything from someone who believes in the Bible.  Further you think anything on creation.com is propaganda even though there are vast amounts of information and articles from professionals with degrees etc. and you have not read or studied any of it.  You only want me to provide information from someone who does not believe the Bible or someone who agrees with a non-believer.  That means we are wasting out time.  If you were serious in wanting to know about these things you would have given some indication you were interested, but you haven't.  You obviously don't want to know or even hear anything contrary to your own present bias against the Bible and God.  So I don't really have anything else at this point in time.

I think there are many other people who would be more serious about wanting to know about these things and may be concerned about their eternal destiny.  So I don't see any reason to pursue this with someone who has made up their mind to be in darkness and who refuses to accept any truth on the supernatural or spiritual matters.  If you change your mind, a search engine is easy to find answers and of course looking up references in the Bible yourself or reading it online.

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On 12/7/2021 at 7:20 PM, blackbird said:

 

Since by definition God is the reference point of what is good and evil, and you claim to be able to judge God, what is your reference point for such claims?  How do you determine what is good or evil?  Is it your human reasoning or personal opinion?  Tell us what is your standard to be able to make such judgments or claims?  If you have nothing, then it is just your own invention or imaginings. 

 

Since by definition God is the reference point of what is good and evil, and you claim to be able to judge God, what is your reference point for such claims? - I do not have a belief in objective good or objective evil, those are religious concepts created to bring order to a collective through theocracy. I would not force my ideas of right or wrong on someone, instead I would recommend a system in which one should operate in the collective for the benefit of the collective. This provided the individual does not lose any simple agreed upon rights of that individual. Simplistically, treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect. 

How do you determine what is good or evil? - Objective right and wrong does not exist. If I were to define good, it would be a result that produces at least maximum benefits with minimum loss to both the individual and to the collective. Genetically good is the action which produces a result that allows continuation of the body and reproduction. But this is subjective. 

Is it your human reasoning or personal opinion?  Tell us what is your standard to be able to make such judgments or claims? - What is best for genetic prosperity of the collective, but ultimately for the individual, ultraistic behavior of the collective.

If you have nothing, then it is just your own invention or imaginings - If we go this route in the conversation, where I as a human have no ability to hold my own moral understanding without the existence of a god, we would have to examine for evidence of a god, which we already determined there is no measurable evidence of a god. ( no supernatural spiritual is not measurable evidence)   

If the entire universe is His creation, then “morality,” including life and death, is by definition under His control. - As per the bible God did define certain morals such as the 10 commandments, “ you shall not kill. " being one of them, yet god throughout the bible kills many people and innocent children, breaking his own morals. God can not be moral yet break the moral rules, that would make him immoral.  

 

 So if you don't accept God as the standard of right and wrong or good and evil, then all you have is your own ramblings which have no authority in a universe that you are a mere speck in and was created by God, the only absolute standard of good and evil - Lets try a different approach since god existence is questionable. Why can't genetic morality exist? Traits handed down from those who behaved in positive ways, which led them to reproduce more often than those that did not.

 

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