Jump to content

Property affordability


myata

Recommended Posts

From personal experience. In about twenty years in this place our property taxes are very close to have doubled. Why? Public costs are always rising, percent on percent. Municipal officials happily afford themselves raises and salaries, the sunshine list is well over a hundred with highest salaries in the region of $400K.

At the same time, a regular worker or specialist's salary, at the same level or in a similar position, barely moved.

If there was a whiteboard it would be easy to draw: one line heading straight up, skywards, like if there's a limit to an official's salary where would it be, who knows it? The other line barely moves. And that bring up an obvious question: where are we heading? Who in this country in a generation's time will be able to afford modest homes at close to $10K municipal taxes, on top of all other costs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Boges said:

I suspect the value of your home has more than doubled in 20 years. 

And how's that supposed to help? I can't eat value but I have to pay ever rising taxes, year on year. I could move to some crappy hole with inferior services would that be the way to ever rising prosperity?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, myata said:

And how's that supposed to help? I can't eat value but I have to pay ever rising taxes, year on year. I could move to some crappy hole with inferior services would that be the way to ever rising prosperity?

Well if you've been paying a mortgage for 20 years. I would hope you've eaten away at a good chunk of your principal. Meaning you could probably re-negotiate a lower mortgage rate. 

And if you haven't, your mortgage would still be woefully small compared to the value of your home. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Boges said:

And what would your solution to that be? 

O’Toole had some good ideas.  But even temporarily banning foreign home buying, and slowing immigration to allow supply to catch up to demand.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Shady said:

O’Toole had some good ideas.  But even temporarily banning foreign home buying, and slowing immigration to allow supply to catch up to demand.  

That won't help wages. 

The catch-22 is that people who enter the market still want their homes value to rise. So any attempts to calm value aren't welcome as well. 

I agree that foreign investment should subject to additional taxes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

That won't help wages. 

The catch-22 is that people who enter the market still want their homes value to rise. So any attempts to calm value aren't welcome as well. 

I agree that foreign investment should subject to additional taxes. 

It won’t help wages but it will help with home values.  For people paying property taxes and people buying or renting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something is deeply broken in the country, with ever growing gap between high income earners and general population. I think this income gap may be in the core of the problem though this it more research. When there's a lot of free money concentrated in a small area the market becomes distorted and refocuses on this source like a black hole near a planet. And it's not just real estate but restaurants, trades, and eventually public services as bureaucrats still like to have their mansions and services.

I see much luxury condo construction in every city I pass through but apparently not enough residential and low income housing. And why would there be if the market dictates that it's way more profitable to build condos?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, myata said:

Something is deeply broken in the country, with ever growing gap between high income earners and general population. I think this income gap may be in the core of the problem though this it more research. When there's a lot of free money concentrated in a small area the market becomes distorted and refocuses on this source like a black hole near a planet. And it's not just real estate but restaurants, trades, and eventually public services as bureaucrats still like to have their mansions and services.

I see much luxury condo construction in every city I pass through but apparently not enough residential and low income housing. And why would there be if the market dictates that it's way more profitable to build condos?

Why do you hate capitalism Comrade? 

Should executive wages be capped? Should X% of a company's reported profit go to wages? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wages have been stagnant for about 40 years, which not coincidentally is about when they started to jack up the amount of immigration. Wages are controlled by supply and demand, except where you have government unions. With a continuing stream of desperate people coming in eager to work for low wages, employers have no reason to ever raise them. And I include not just immigrants but the temporary foreign workers as well as the 600,000 foreign students are in Canada were allowed to work part time.

As for housing, well you got that 600,000 foreign students looking for cheap housing plus half a million or so of various types of temporary foreign workers also looking for super cheap housing. Then you've got 400,000 new immigrants a year, +tens of thousands of refugee claimants almost none of whom will ever be deported regardless of whether or not their claims are ever heard or ever turned down. That means we need to be building a lot of new housing and were not.

Why aren't we? In large part because the provincial and municipal governments have placed an enormous amount of red tape in front of developers while adding heavy fees, taxes and delays for various types of studies and hearings before they get permission. I read somewhere that the developer buys a parcel of land to build housing on has to wait something between five and 10 years before getting permission. A study by the CD Howe Institute a couple of years ago found that government fees, regulations, and delays add something like an average of $230,000 to the cost of each new housing unit.

On top of that, the various laws and regulations and rent controls which impact the profitability of landlord's means not as many are bothering to get into the business. 

So if you want to do something about the shortage of housing while at the same time raising wages... Cut back on temporary foreign workers, students and immigration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Argus said:

So if you want to do something about the shortage of housing while at the same time raising wages... Cut back on temporary foreign workers, students and immigration.

Since Canadians aren't reproducing all that much (because of the high cost and standard of living) then how exactly do you grow the economy, if not through immigration? 

Temporary Foreign workers will do jobs Canadians won't. So do we force these farmers to pay a wage that Canadians will actually accept? Or just let the fruit rot on the ground? 

Foreign Student pay full freight for education, it's a growth industry for University and Colleges. 

These things are not that clear cut. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's difficult to argue that massive immigration does not contribute to the serious problem for many Canadians. And it's further exacerbated by the incompetent government that just comes up with a bright idea, like 100 millions by end of century and drops it on the society (luckily for it, in Canadian system a majority government can do pretty much anything it likes) without any clue about side effects and consequences. And when it bites in the a.. it starts talking then looking then procuring reports etc and it could take decades to even begin acting. That is what we have, what we worked for and constructed. And no chance in a heck it's going to be any better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Boges said:

Since Canadians aren't reproducing all that much (because of the high cost and standard of living) then how exactly do you grow the economy, if not through immigration? 

I have posted multiple cites over the years from demographics experts, statisticians and economists saying that immigration is not going to have significant impact on an aging population or a declining birthrate. Further, growing an economy by adding people does nothing useful for the people already there. It doesn't make their lives better or richer.

12 hours ago, Boges said:

Temporary Foreign workers will do jobs Canadians won't. So do we force these farmers to pay a wage that Canadians will actually accept? Or just let the fruit rot on the ground? 

The government makes it almost impossible to get statistics on temporary foreign workers but as far as I've been able to determine the vast, vast majority have absolutely nothing to do with agriculture. They work in restaurants and bars, as well as technology companies, doing their part to keep wages low (Canadian wages have stagnated for decades). I'm okay with foreign agriculture workers because that sort of job isn't something you can entice people to do even with higher wages. But almost every other job is simply a matter of employees not wanting to pay higher wages.

 

12 hours ago, Boges said:

Foreign Student pay full freight for education, it's a growth industry for University and Colleges. 

And they need housing, hundreds of thousands of cheap apartments. Which we're not building because government fees, regulations and delays make it unprofitable to do so.

12 hours ago, Boges said:

These things are not that clear cut. 

Yes, they actually are.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canada-has-abandoned-middle-class-says-b-c-s-former-top-civil-servant

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-immigration-may-lift-economy-but-not-peoples-wages-plus-other-economists-lessons

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-alas-immigration-wont-replace-canadas-aging-workforce

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/bissett-immigration-policy-is-out-of-control-and-needs-an-overhaul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Argus said:

1. I have posted multiple cites over the years from demographics experts, statisticians and economists saying that immigration is not going to have significant impact on an aging population or a declining birthrate.

2. Further, growing an economy by adding people does nothing useful for the people already there. It doesn't make their lives better or richer.

3. The government makes it almost impossible to get statistics on temporary foreign workers but as far as I've been able to determine the vast, vast majority have absolutely nothing to do with agriculture. They work in restaurants and bars, as well as technology companies, doing their part to keep wages low (Canadian wages have stagnated for decades). I'm okay with foreign agriculture workers because that sort of job isn't something you can entice people to do even with higher wages. But almost every other job is simply a matter of employees not wanting to pay higher wages.

4. And they need housing, hundreds of thousands of cheap apartments. Which we're not building because government fees, regulations and delays make it unprofitable to do so.

1. Yes, I learned this from you.  Have you yourself changed your mind on ANY aspect of immigration, though, as I have ?

2. Across the board judgements like this don't work in economics.  So, no, you're incorrect.  People who sell things, for example, benefit from a larger market.  Banks benefit from more borrowers and users.

3. Correct, again.

4. We're building 200-250K homes a year.  We are letting in 300K and several 100K die so ... the housing problem is something else entirely: air bnb, empty homes being flipped are two things I think about

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cmhc-housing-starts-july-1.5681883
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/201126/dq201126b-eng.htm

One thing you are spot on about is the government's abandonment of working people.  But even that is complicated.  Home owners now have a major asset that they can retire with (and only 30% of Canadians have a pension, as I recall)

And the construction, renovation, real estate industry employs a lot of people.

And... lowering wages increases efficiency - which is a good thing - but increases disparity too.

And... a lot of these things have been NDP talking points for awhile too.  Welcome to the conservative NDP :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/21/2021 at 9:14 AM, Boges said:

Since Canadians aren't reproducing all that much (because of the high cost and standard of living) then how exactly do you grow the economy, if not through immigration? 

Temporary Foreign workers will do jobs Canadians won't. So do we force these farmers to pay a wage that Canadians will actually accept? Or just let the fruit rot on the ground? 

Foreign Student pay full freight for education, it's a growth industry for University and Colleges. 

These things are not that clear cut. 

Sacrificing a bit of economic growth for the well being of Canadians isn’t a bad thing.  It’s actually more sustainable.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/22/2021 at 11:53 AM, Shady said:

Sacrificing a bit of economic growth for the well being of Canadians isn’t a bad thing.  It’s actually more sustainable.  

We also need to reexamine the definition of "growth". Who benefits from it and who does not, is it always and unconditionally a good thing for the whole of the society? Whole number of creative ways has been invented to show growth on paper and in an abstract number. But are salaries across the society increasing, along with prosperity, or only those of small groups? These are important questions, if growth does not involve rising prosperity for the majority, it can be a trajectory to extreme polarization of prosperity and incomes, not unlike seen in the third world countries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, myata said:

We also need to reexamine the definition of "growth". Who benefits from it and who does not, is it always and unconditionally a good thing for the whole of the society? Whole number of creative ways has been invented to show growth on paper and in an abstract number. But are salaries across the society increasing, along with prosperity, or only those of small groups? These are important questions, if growth does not involve rising prosperity for the majority, it can be a trajectory to extreme polarization of prosperity and incomes, not unlike seen in the third world countries.

Exactly.  The proponents of unlimited immigration all the time only look at macro numbers like GDP.  They never examine micro numbers like cost of living, strain on social services, transportation and the environment.  Energy prices, housing prices, etc.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/20/2021 at 8:28 AM, myata said:

From personal experience. In about twenty years in this place our property taxes are very close to have doubled. Why? Public costs are always rising, percent on percent. Municipal officials happily afford themselves raises and salaries, the sunshine list is well over a hundred with highest salaries in the region of $400K.

At the same time, a regular worker or specialist's salary, at the same level or in a similar position, barely moved.

If there was a whiteboard it would be easy to draw: one line heading straight up, skywards, like if there's a limit to an official's salary where would it be, who knows it? The other line barely moves. And that bring up an obvious question: where are we heading? Who in this country in a generation's time will be able to afford modest homes at close to $10K municipal taxes, on top of all other costs?

It has been mentioned by pundits that municipal governance and taxation has not been held under the same scrutiny as provincial and federal counterparts.  Raising taxes for the feds is election suicide.  And pretty much the same for the provinces.  But cities have seen ever increasing property taxes, I would argue far beyond annual inflation of 3%.  Part of the problem, strangely, is consumers don't seem to care.  Maybe they roll it into their mortgage payment and just forget about.  The other issue is to renters property taxes are invisible.  Obviously they affect renters as landlords have to cover their costs, including taxes, by increasing rent.  It just doesn't hit the radar but it should.  One thing I notice is the RCMP is way more affordable than city police.  Inner cities pay a much larger percentage of the full property tax as policing than do say suburban municipalities.  For example while say a suburban city pays $300 of the property tax for policing, a city is likely to pay $800 for policing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/20/2021 at 9:41 AM, Boges said:

And what would your solution to that be? 

Vote reform.  A candidate should inspire the voters not just replace say another unpopular choice. An election say in a city with 40,000 voters should require the winner to at least meet a quota of votes.  If they can't energize say 15,000 voters to vote for them, even if they have the larger share, they should not form government.  That way they have to promise better than the person they are replacing.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/20/2021 at 10:19 AM, myata said:

Something is deeply broken in the country, with ever growing gap between high income earners and general population. I think this income gap may be in the core of the problem though this it more research. When there's a lot of free money concentrated in a small area the market becomes distorted and refocuses on this source like a black hole near a planet. And it's not just real estate but restaurants, trades, and eventually public services as bureaucrats still like to have their mansions and services.

I see much luxury condo construction in every city I pass through but apparently not enough residential and low income housing. And why would there be if the market dictates that it's way more profitable to build condos?

Grift.  Exists hear and in the USA.  I mean seriously does a CEO of any company deserve to make $10 million dollars?  Shareholders have their nuts squeezed by board of directors that in many cases reign over a failing company but still come out the other side with massive bonuses.  But corporate welfare is another problem.  Whether its big corn in Iowa pushing to have corn ethanol in gasoline, or SNC Lavalin licking their chops in front of Trudeau's front door.  Failing magazines and newspapers get a bail out.  And how many Liberals (and liberal lite, like Tories) are on the Board of Directors at Power Corp?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Tell a friend

    Love Repolitics.com - Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...