Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

vast majority of the money made from cars comes from servicing them and repairing them

And its a rather lucrative industry in just parts alone. That's not even touching on the labor. 

If you maintain your ICE well, you should easily be able to get a solid 10 to 15 years out of it. 

EVs to me, sound insanely expensive towards the end of their life cycle.

Replacing an EV battery, is insanely expensive.

I can replace my car battery for pennies in comparison, and can do it myself in mere minutes.

Make EVs as practical and reliable as an ICE, and they will essentially sell themselves.

1 hour ago, Boges said:

have to make their money somehow. 

The unintended consequence, is this justifiably adds to the anxieties people have about such technologies.

[herbie]

Couple years ago the nearest Chevy dealer said they wouldn't even stock Volts or Bolts, never had one on their lot ever. Went into a hate rant on the Chevy Bolt... mainly because it didn't need the servicing of an ICE car. $200 oil changes at the dealer and they mailed notices and phoned you as if it was a 1953 DeSoto that needed an oil change every 1000 miles. Big money lost in service rip-offs and expensive equipment and staff training, that;s why a lot of car dealers are on the hate EV bandwagon.

I also see FB ads for a new group pushing a petition to end the ZEV initiative. A former Gasbuddy contributor who left and invented his own so called consumer group and became little more than an apologist for Big Oil is also behind this pretend organization.

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, herbie said:

Couple years ago the nearest Chevy dealer said they wouldn't even stock Volts or Bolts, never had one on their lot ever. Went into a hate rant on the Chevy Bolt... mainly because it didn't need the servicing of an ICE car. $200 oil changes at the dealer and they mailed notices and phoned you as if it was a 1953 DeSoto that needed an oil change every 1000 miles. Big money lost in service rip-offs and expensive equipment and staff training, that;s why a lot of car dealers are on the hate EV bandwagon.

I also see FB ads for a new group pushing a petition to end the ZEV initiative. A former Gasbuddy contributor who left and invented his own so called consumer group and became little more than an apologist for Big Oil is also behind this pretend organization.

Right, so the high entry price, exceptionally insane costs for repairs long term, and all of the other problems are simply a conspiracy theory and have no merit.

Sigh. 

 

[herbie]

Sigh... the penultimate cantservative says that humans that decided to go into space and land on the moon in the same decade is unable to modernize a 125 year old vehicle given more than 10 years notice.
The same thinking that stalled the USAs original ZEV attempts for 30 years and left them in their current mess.

Edited June 4, 2024 by herbie

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Sigh... the penultimate cantservative says that humans that decided to go into space and land on the moon in the same decade is unable to modernize a 125 year old vehicle given more than 10 years notice.

Oh dear - sounds like our resident commie is having a hissy fit again and can't really read english as a result. (too much cough syrup again?)

In fact i've said that someday they will beat the problems.  But that today is not that day. Today the tech just isn't there. 

Fun fact btw they went to the moon on fossil fuels  

And if you think that todays ICE engines are not 'modern' compared to the engines 125 years ago, i'm afraid you're in for a shock   they are vastly more efficient. 

What you're hoping they'll do is invent a new car altogether, not update an old design. I'm sure they will ,but it's not there yet. 

Also that's not what penultimate means  

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, herbie said:

Big money lost in service rip-offs

You're ignoring the incredibly high cost to repair an extremely high tech EV after an accident.

Most people I know don't take their cars to dealerships to get them serviced. I certainly don't. I go to garages that give me best pricing and service for my repairs. Some of these repairs are so basic, I just do them myself.

I would rather get "ripped off" on services, knowing my car is insanely reliable. There is zero doubt in its ability. I decide to take the wife to Los Angeles or Virginia to visit family, and I know without any doubt, that my car would take me there and back and there would be zero anxiety about it.

There is a reason why Hertz Rental ditched more EVs from their offerings. A reason they just don't sell. The anxieties, coupled with the mentioned high cost of repair of these vehicles after an accident.

I was rear ended while waiting at a red light, last winter, leaving small damage to my rear bumper. I could have easily replaced it, for about 800$. Paint and all.

I chose to leave it alone, as there are no sensors on it, and checking its fastening points--everything was rock solid.

You get rear ended in a Tesla, and good luck. You're easily looking at double that cost, and it isn't a job you could jury rig, considering just like say, a high end Mercedes Benz, there are many sensors that must be re-calibrated.

A small dent as a result, will not only cost you an arm and a leg, but if you're going to a certified shop, your wait time will be incredibly long.

I've heard of people crashing their EV's, and adding insult to injury, getting a gas powered loaner while they wait.

If that doesn't send a message, I don't know what does.

[Guest]

I also find it rather comical that people get up in arms of people stating the fact that EV's are just not ready yet to take over ICE's. Its not saying the technology isn't the future. Its saying you can't rush that future, as people won't buy into it until they feel its ready enough for them.

Remember when we had cassette tapes? CD's came out? Then MP3's.

It then made absolutely no sense to carry around a disk that potentially could still skip, or cassette tape that could only be rewound in one manner.

I see EV's no different. They will eventually be the high tech manner we drive everywhere. But let the product sell itself. Virtue signaling, won't make people adopt it.

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I also find it rather comical that people get up in arms of people stating the fact that EV's are just not ready yet to take over ICE's. Its not saying the technology isn't the future. Its saying you can't rush that future, as people won't buy into it until they feel its ready enough for them.

Remember when we had cassette tapes? CD's came out? Then MP3's.

It then made absolutely no sense to carry around a disk that potentially could still skip, or cassette tape that could only be rewound in one manner.

I see EV's no different. They will eventually be the high tech manner we drive everywhere. But let the product sell itself. Virtue signaling, won't make people adopt it.

Exactly. Those who are of the age will remember the absolute world changing invention of the sony "Walkman"..  A personal cassette player with earphones small enough to carry around with you and still deliver good sound, that ran on batteries. Phenomenal! Huge hype and excitement.  But you weren't getting rid of your 'boom boxes' or home stereo cassette players just yet.  

It should not be upsetting to anyone to hear that the tech is progressing but not quite there yet.  But for the climate panic religious somehow it's an affront to the god of electricity to suggest it isn't perfect. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But for the climate panic religious

Giving a s*** about climate change, is something only the privileged get to do. Scolding people about driving a 50, 000$ electric vehicle with a wall plug for your house, is someone out of touch with the realities most people face.

Everyone else, are far too worried about trivial things like having food for supper, or a roof over their heads.

That same lack of awareness is behind someone thinking their buying a Tesla will reduce global emissions, and make them a better person. The level of arrogance, is uncanny.

[herbie]

10 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

You're ignoring the incredibly high cost to repair an extremely high tech EV after an accident.

No I mentioned the equipment and training. Like the one thing Canada always fails to jump onboard and invest in.
You're looking at accidents that damage the battery, bodywork is exactly the same, 'tuneups' are software and maintenance is lower. Why do you think some of them try to charge more for a replacement battery than for a new car? Asides from not mentioning that vehicles are replaced more often these days due to the sheer labour cost of body & frame repairs. They're designed that way, all of them. Protect the passengers, to hell with how much damage to the car.

53 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Scolding people about driving a 50, 000$ electric vehicle with a wall plug for your house, is someone out of touch with the realities most people face.

True, because $50,000 is squat in 2024, avg new car buyer spends $57,000. And most of us already own a residence so a wall plug outside is as nothing as a water tap. Renters can demand access to one. Most Canadians aren't homeless peasants living on the street like the whiners try to make out.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, herbie said:

bodywork is exactly the same

But it's not.

I have a common ICE vehicle. I can effortlessly find parts for it.

OEM, aftermarket. A lot of EV parts, will require you to get OEM replacements, or refusal to doing so at your own risk.

Tesla, is notorious for this. Its the only EV brand I would consider due to high mileage.

Hidden cost of owning one, is the costly repairs, and how hard and lengthy it takes to get those repairs done.

6 hours ago, herbie said:

True, because $50,000 is squat in 2024

You can get a luxury trim ICE for less than 50, 000$.

6 hours ago, herbie said:

avg new car buyer spends $57,000

Most popular choices being ICE pickup trucks and SUVs. Ironically of course.

6 hours ago, herbie said:

Most Canadians aren't homeless peasants living on the street like the whiners try to make out.

Most Canadians also demonstrably have opted to buy ICEs.

I am due for a new car probably within a couple years, as my car is starting to get long in the tooth.

Current market, I would get a hybrid. There is no way I buy an EV, until the convenience of my ICE is met.

 

 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

You can get a luxury trim ICE for less than 50, 000$.

More importantly, you can get a nice trim that satisfies the needs of most people for about 25,000. I bought my car not that long ago and it was 2 years old and I picked it up for 19500. It's nice to drive I'm quite happy with it.

So that $25,000 extra that you have to pay for the EV buys a hell of a lot of gas. i spend less than 100 dollars a month in fuel  i'm 250  frikkin months just to break even. Even somone who drives a lot more and blows 250 dollars in fuel a month, about a tank and a half a week for a small car, which is quite a lot of driving, they're still looking at 100 months. Over 8 YEARS, which is most of the battery life of an EV as i understand it. 

this is so simple. I can't even be argued. In the vast majority of cases, and Evie is a more expensive option by the end of its life, it's far less convenient, it's got safety concerns about catching fire and such, and there are a host of circumstances where it is a less than ideal choice by far. Some people will still prefer it and they should have that choice. And I do believe that one day the technology will be there. But claiming that we are ready to transition is just not being real.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

More importantly, you can get a nice trim that satisfies the needs of most people for about 25,000.

Exactly. Many students, working class families aren't going to spend 50, 000$ on their car.

I am not sure in what world that this is realistic. 

I make a pretty good salary, and my max for a car I would be willing to spend, is about 40, 000$.

Sounds little, but I bump that a tad, and have a pretty decent entry level F-150. 

Many models in Nissan, Toyota and Honda's lineups. I mention these deliberately, being I am buying into a bulletproof vehicle, with good resale value, more than likely.

There is nothing but uncertainty for most EVs out there that aren't a Tesla.

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So that $25,000 extra that you have to pay for the EV buys a hell of a lot of gas.

People buy cars for selfish reasons, typically.

A lot of the most popular vehicles use a decent amount of fuel.

I care about fuel consumption, but care more for the performance, handling and the overall convenience of driving it.

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Some people will still prefer it and they should have that choice.

I don't think that choice will change until there are significant changes in the infrastructure.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

 

I don't think that choice will change until there are significant changes in the infrastructure.

It isn't just the infrastructure though. Even if there was already a charger in every home in every street corner, the other problems still persist.

I don't think there's going to be a replacement of ice Vehicles until whatever the option is performs like and is as convenient as an ice vehicle or so close that it literally makes no real difference. And by performs I mean price, convenience, reliability, etc etc.

A certain percent of people will prefer EVS and it may be a better choice for them given their specific circumstances and I absolutely encourage that, but we are in no position to look at replacing ice with EVS based on the current technology

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

we are in no position to look at replacing ice with EVS based on the current technology

Not only technology, but the current electrical grid that we have overall in Canada.

I mean, wasn't there a blackout in Ontario a few years back, where there were warnings about peak hour air conditioner use during a heat wave?

"Sacrifice for the greater good", just ignores the nature of man.

There's a reason people get medals and are deeply revered for sacrificing body and limb for others.

[herbie]

Same negative arguments repeated endlessly.... we can't, we can't, we can't....

go sit and watch TV and be quiet, the rest of us are doing it for you.

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, herbie said:

Same negative arguments repeated endlessly.... we can't, we can't, we can't....

go sit and watch TV and be quiet, the rest of us are doing it for you.

The same delusional stupidity repeated endlessly. Ignore ignore ignore...

Hey. Stupid. Nobody is saying we can't. Absolutely nobody has said that.

The fact is we haven't. It's not there yet.

And lying like a jackass and pretending that the absolute facts are not the facts only convinces people that those who are arguing that we should make the transition are ret*rds

When you can deal with reality, when you can be honest instead of a line sack of crap, when you can stop pretending that the sun doesn't rise in the east, then we can have a sensible conversation.

The technology is not there. It will likely be someday. But today is not that day

[Legato]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Same negative arguments repeated endlessly.... we can't, we can't, we can't....

go sit and watch TV and be quiet, the rest of us are doing it for you.

Nothing negative, just commonsense facts.  Now go out and buy a 5 gal drum of elections. Make sure to get the ones which belong to lepton particle family.

[herbie]

And I'm sure the USA would measure electrons in gallons if you dinosaurs had your way.

[CdnFox]

14 minutes ago, herbie said:

And I'm sure the USA would measure electrons in gallons if you dinosaurs had your way.

LOL - so i take it you didn't know what a lepton is   Which is odd because you're sure muoning about all this stuff     (legato will get it, i know you won't  )

[Guest]

5 hours ago, herbie said:

can't, we can't, we can't

Nope. 

We will, and are. Right now, you need a technology that works with the current infrastructure, while continuing to develop the EV one.

There's nothing that can't be done. Its just not a technology that has been perfected like the ICE, yet.

I am not investing my hard earned dollars into something that has any questions for me. 

I buy a Toyota Land Cruiser, and there are no questions. An F-150. No questions.

Remove questions from the equation, along with the virtue signaling, and the cars will sell themselves.

5 hours ago, herbie said:

go sit and watch TV and be quiet, the rest of us are doing it for you.

Tell that to the bulk of the planet.

Make sure to wag the finger the hardest, at third world countries where there is zero investment on EV infrastructure.

Sorry, but if you measure contributions, you aren't morally superior. You're virtue signaling.

The arrogance behind thinking you're preventing forest fires because you drive an electric car, is mind boggling.

Go to New Delhi. Manila. Kinshasa. I could go on. 

Tell me how green things are. How clear the smog is, from your contributions.

I recycle, drive little in the summer when I don't need to. Conserve water, electricity.

Difference, is I don't expect a medal for this. I just do it. 

I don't think its inappropriate to demand something I buy to be up to my expectations. Especially if am paying more than 20 grand for it.

[herbie]

The arrogance remains with those who will not, can not adapt. Can't see progress when it's happening in front of their eyes.

Really, a range of 100 miles was years ago, ir's 350+ miles now and some are singing the same song - it won't go 1600 miles! Wahh!

I mean obviously if I drive a Jeep now, I'm not expecting an EV to wade through creeks and I sure wouldn't lie and claim a 1600 mile highway journey in a Wrangler was anything other than an ordeal. A damn expensive one at that!

Now I'll split a 1000km trip to visit my sister over 2 days and if I have an EV years from now it can charge overnight at the Motel. I could do it today in a Tesla with a couple of 20 min. stops midway while I go to Timmies, like I do anyways.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

The arrogance remains with those who will not, can not adapt. anyways.

The stupidity remains with those who refuse to be honest about what's involved with adapting. But keep lying and virtue signaling about it and see if it helps. I'm sure we'll be just as effective at climate change control as paying my carbon taxes were

[Guest]

12 hours ago, herbie said:

The arrogance remains with those who will not, can not adapt.

Adapt to what, though? Buying an EV? This isn't adaptation, its a personal choice.

This isn't how business works. 

You will buy based on your budget. Based on your needs. More importantly, based on your right to choose a product that meets your expectations.

If said product doesn't meet your needs or your budget, you buy one that does. Its literally that simple.

"Well this is better for the planet, you dinosaur!"

That sales pitch won't do Tesla any good. In fact, they understand their product needs to look and be superior in order to sell. Thats how business should be.

Feeling entitled to me buying your product, is the epitome of arrogance. I would be out of business with that attitude.

You're not doing the consumer a favor by building an EV. They are doing you a favor for choosing to buy your product.

They (Tesla) are successful for a reason. They understood this. Made their vehicles sexy and focused on range, knowing the demand for this. Listened to consumer needs, up until they built the disappointing Cybertruck, which lacked in range. 

Adaptation lies in your willingness to adapt. Your open mind.

People will flock to the better product. This isn't a people or market issue. It's a product and infrastructure issue.

Businesses knowing they need to fine tune their product for that adaptation to occur, will do great. Those that don't, will fail. How it should be.

Those stuck in the "this is green, so buy it" club, will keep missing the mark by refusing to listen to their clients (or the market share they will miss out on).

Fiskar is doing bad for a reason, as are all EV brands that followed similar avenues, refusing to listen to the market needs and concerns.

The arrogance to think buying an EV does a thing. 

Adjust your driving. Bike, walk as much as possible. 

Its the lack of an open mind to seeing there are vast ways to improve our environment.

The lack of an open mind to make this a conversation. To accept feedback.

Again, businesses who humble themselves to that market demand for high range and a reduction of the existing anxieties many motorists have, will be rolling in money once the lagging issued are fixed.

[herbie]

OMG the object is to reduce CO2 emissions. Electrification does that whether BEV, PHEV or mild hybrid. Vehicles are a major source.
You could reduce CO2 a little with propane or LNG, reduce it all together using ammonia or hydrogen (wasting 60% of the energy using ICE, or properly with fuel cells), but the same attitude from the same people dismiss those options as well. Total opposition to any cost of change and stubborn resistance to any change whatsoever.

Not just to EVs. Do you know how many people I've met in my field over the decades who with hands on their hips and a pout on their lips proclaim that they've never owned or used 'one of them computers/call phones' and act like that's something to be proud of?

Some people just don't like change, and that's just too f*cking bad for them. The Western world they claim to love has done nothing but change for the last 1,000 years.