Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

Boges · May 20

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Let me sum up this entire thread for you

It's great that you like Ev's. For a handful of people it's an option that makes a lot of sense and that they will prefer. And they should absolutely have access to those options as consumers.

But for the vast majority of people EVS are a poor option or no option. The technology just isn't there.

Amusingly some of the Chinese hybrids look like they would give us about 90% 95% of what EVs do in the way of pollution reduction and would be adaptable in a much wider scale. But Evie's just aren't a practical solution for the vast majority of Canadians at this time given the current technology. But I'm glad you enjoy yours and absolutely support your right to buy a vehicle that's right for you

I'm open to hybrids. My other car is a hybrid and is very good.

But the current PHEV selection is very poor. Most are just normal ICE vehicles with a battery for weight and don't provide much in the way of the Electric only range.

It is an emerging technology which is why I'll lease this one, as to not lock myself into a car that may be quite out-of-date by the end of the decade.

herbie · May 20

The 50km range of current PHEVs is adequate. You worry about range, you're not using it for work and errands.
And BEVs are hitting 500km ranges these days.

And look at the price of ICE vehicles - they didn't reduce EV prices, they raised ICE prices a lot. Telsas the only EV volume builder and they took the moves by others to hike prices several times now.
Another govt plan that turned into a corporate gougefest.

Boges · May 21

14 hours ago, herbie said:

And look at the price of ICE vehicles - they didn't reduce EV prices, they raised ICE prices a lot. Telsas the only EV volume builder and they took the moves by others to hike prices several times now.
Another govt plan that turned into a corporate gougefest.

The thing about PHEVs are that they usually aren't much cheaper than full EVs.

CdnFox · May 21

4 hours ago, Boges said:

The thing about PHEVs are that they usually aren't much cheaper than full EVs.

The price isn't the biggest problem. Charging is the biggest problem

People living in apartment buildings don't have access to charging that is anywhere near as practical or as easy as just filling up a gas tank. Even if you live at home and are willing to pay for the upgrade it's far less convenient.

If you're going on a road trip having to stop for extended periods of time while the battery charges is extremely undesirable, especially considering the fact that it might be that when you get there to the next charging station it's damaged or out of service.

This is before we get into any of the maintenance or insurance issues or the fire risk

At least with a plug-in hybrid if for some reason you haven't got time to charge it there's no problem with stopping and topping up the tank and keep going.

And for the vast majority of people they are still going to deliver more than 90% of the savings on fuel. Most people don't travel more than 50 km in a day

herbie · May 21

6 hours ago, Boges said:

The thing about PHEVs are that they usually aren't much cheaper than full EVs.

Problem with all hybrids is two motors instead of one. The battery continues to be the most expensive part and the size of it in a PHEV is the only saving.

Boges · May 26

On 5/21/2025 at 1:28 PM, CdnFox said:

The price isn't the biggest problem. Charging is the biggest problem

People living in apartment buildings don't have access to charging that is anywhere near as practical or as easy as just filling up a gas tank. Even if you live at home and are willing to pay for the upgrade it's far less convenient.

If you're going on a road trip having to stop for extended periods of time while the battery charges is extremely undesirable, especially considering the fact that it might be that when you get there to the next charging station it's damaged or out of service.

This is before we get into any of the maintenance or insurance issues or the fire risk

At least with a plug-in hybrid if for some reason you haven't got time to charge it there's no problem with stopping and topping up the tank and keep going.

And for the vast majority of people they are still going to deliver more than 90% of the savings on fuel. Most people don't travel more than 50 km in a day

We've gone over this. If you can't charge at home, EVs aren't for you, yet. Lots of Condo units are making them available, but it's still not the norm. We'll need more public charging stations for it to be viable for condo dwellers.

But yes, PHEV could be a good option for condo dwellers as the internal ICE engine is able to charge the battery as with other Hybrids. Plenty of towns have access to Stage 2 chargers for free or nominal costs now. Those are perfect for PHEVs.

The upfront cost of adding an EV charging set up at a single family home isn't much. My new car actually came with a dual 110 and 240 charger in the trunk. So all you need is a mechanism to get a NEMA 40 plug within 10-15 feet of where you will park the car.

I have not yet seen my insurance balloon because of my ownership of an EV. And I just recently had to write my previous one off due to body damage unrelated to the battery.

New EV tech is making the road trip argument much less an issue. You're talking 10-80% times of under a half an hour with ranges approaching or exceeding 500 kms. I don't know who's in so much of a rush on their road trip that they can't take accept a 30 minute pit stop every 3 hours of driving. I know that travelling with kids makes that mandatory.

The Ivy Stage 3 chargers at OnRoute locations in Ontario have an App that will let you know if they're available as you approach you can know if you'll be able to charger or not.

I should be doing a mini road trip in the next few weeks. I'm eager to see how the situation has improved for EV charging with a new model.

CdnFox · May 26

1 hour ago, Boges said:

We've gone over this

And yet for some reason you're still a hair slow on the uptake

Quote

. If you can't charge at home, EVs aren't for you, yet. Lots of Condo units are making them available, but it's still not the norm. We'll need more public charging stations for it to be viable for condo dwellers.

They can't. It is severely problematic. At best you can make it possible with severe inconveniences and strain on the system.

And just because you may not be aware and many of the provinces the need for EV charging is coming along simultaneously with extremely increased need for air conditioning and cooling. British Columbia for example is getting warmer in the summers with more severe heat events and related deaths.

As a result the need for air conditioning has become significant. 15 years ago almost no residential buildings in British Columbia had air conditioning. New houses were not built with that in mind nor were they attached to the power grid with the thought of adding that in the future. Now everybody wants it. So townhomes and apartments are struggling with severely increased power requirements even before EVS come along

But even if you can charge from home, there are still problems. For many places in Canada it's too cold in the winter and the range of the batteries goes down so substantially that it creates very difficult problems. Traveling any real distance becomes a severe problem if you have children especially.

For the majority of the public, and I do mean the strong majority, having an EV as their only vehicle is not remotely practical nor is it desirable.You expand the number slightly if you have a two-car family and only one of which is an EV.

And that's great, those people should have a choice and it's wonderful that they can use something more environmentally friendly

If you want to get serious about the issue the only technology currently available that is practical is plug-in hybrids. Those solve the problems of charging and still reduce pollution by over 90 percent.

Boges · May 26

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

If you want to get serious about the issue the only technology currently available that is practical is plug-in hybrids. Those solve the problems of charging and still reduce pollution by over 90 percent.

The only automaker that's remotely serious about PHEVs is Toyota. The options just aren't out there. You'd be better just sticking with a Hybrid.

We're heating that Chinese EV tech has gotten charging times down really low and prices too. I think within the next 10 years we'll have cars with even quicker charging times.

Then we'll need more of them. So Gas Stations will move from pumping gas to rows of Stage 3 chargers.

The next issue is generating capacity. More acceptance of Nuclear power will be a potential fix to this.

CdnFox · May 26

55 minutes ago, Boges said:

The only automaker that's remotely serious about PHEVs is Toyota. The options just aren't out there.

Sure they are. And they'll be even more so if the gov't backs it.

Best Plug-in Hybrid Cars: Highest-rated 2025 cars according to Driving data-driven ratings | Driving

The only reason that we haven't seen a hell of a lot more in that segment is because the government said that only true EV Vehicles would be allowed after 2030. We now know that that was a disaster and not even remotely possible.

China who wasn't operating under such restrictions has produced some amazing hybrids

Sorry, but electric vehicles are not the way of the future for the vast majority of people. Hybrids can be, and perhaps today will come when we have better and more efficient ways of storing or generating electricity and we can move away from fossil fuels entirely but in the meantime this is it if we're talking about mass adaptation

herbie · May 27

On 5/26/2025 at 8:56 AM, Boges said:

The only automaker that's remotely serious about PHEVs is Toyota

The only automaker that's remotely serious about PHEVs is Mitsubishi. FTFY. Who's had the #1 seller for the last few years?
KIA has some good deals too, I almost bought one on impulse before the Scot DNA kicked in. $42K for a PHEV is a good deal ! AAACKKK.... 42K is still 42,000 dollars....

On 5/26/2025 at 9:55 AM, CdnFox said:

We now know that that was a disaster and not even remotely possible.

No, just so many of us bought the negativist bullshit that we can't DO something once again. Glad your type wasn't heard so much in the 1960s. Pigs are very human like, we should reasonably be able to launch a pig into space by 2050.... aggh that fallout is commie propaganda to stop Las Vegas hotels overcharging to watch the detonations from the balcony...

Edited May 27 by herbie

CdnFox · May 27

Just now, herbie said:

No, just so many of us bought the negativist bullshit that we can't DO something once again.

Kid, what happened is people came to the realization you and your kind were lying and selling snake oil that doesn't exist.

And just to prove your credibility you decided to cap your comment off with a call to murder a president of the united states because somehow in your mind that's relevant. (???) I guess the voices in your head got a little confused.

Your entire world is powered by lies and delusion. "IF ONLY!! IF ONLY PEOPLE HAD THE COURAGE TO BELIEVE THE EARTH WAS FLAT....." Yeah, that's a you problem, not an 'us' problem.

Legato · May 27

2 hours ago, herbie said:

The only automaker that's remotely serious about PHEVs is Mitsubishi. FTFY. Who's had the #1 seller for the last few years?
KIA has some good deals too, I almost bought one on impulse before the Scot DNA kicked in. $42K for a PHEV is a good deal ! AAACKKK.... 42K is still 42,000 dollars....

No, just so many of us bought the negativist bullshit that we can't DO something once again. Glad your type wasn't heard so much in the 1960s. Pigs are very human like, we should reasonably be able to launch a pig into space by 2050.... aggh that fallout is commie propaganda to stop Las Vegas hotels overcharging to watch the detonations from the balcony...

Wotsa matter did you just lose a game of conkers?

You shouldn't eat horse chestnuts.

herbie · May 28

Expecting rational responses from the self professed "right" is like expecting the sun to set in the east.
Incapable of joining any conversation intelligently, anything they disagree with becomes a child's game of shoot the messenger. The usual response of the twatwaffles is that anyone is lying rather than admit they know sweet f*ck all about the subject at hand.

It's sad. So removed from reality, they refuse to even see it anymore.

Boges · May 30

On 5/27/2025 at 3:49 PM, herbie said:

The only automaker that's remotely serious about PHEVs is Mitsubishi. FTFY. Who's had the #1 seller for the last few years?
KIA has some good deals too, I almost bought one on impulse before the Scot DNA kicked in. $42K for a PHEV is a good deal ! AAACKKK.... 42K is still 42,000 dollars....

No, just so many of us bought the negativist bullshit that we can't DO something once again. Glad your type wasn't heard so much in the 1960s. Pigs are very human like, we should reasonably be able to launch a pig into space by 2050.... aggh that fallout is commie propaganda to stop Las Vegas hotels overcharging to watch the detonations from the balcony...

The Outlander PHEV is not a good car. It barely even a hybrid car. After the battery is drained it has worse fuel efficiency than a comparable ICE Hybrid.

CdnFox · May 30

3 hours ago, Boges said:

The Outlander PHEV is not a good car. It barely even a hybrid car. After the battery is drained it has worse fuel efficiency than a comparable ICE Hybrid.

It's got a 38 mile battery range. thats 61 klicks. The average distance to work for most people is 8.7 k

The Daily — Study: Long commutes to work by car

So even with running the kids around and grabbing groceries you're probably not running on gas.

Even for longer commuters who live more like 30 or 40 k from work (which is fairly rare) you're still doing MOST of your driving on battery, so the tiny amount you do on gas is so small that fuel efficiency is pretty much a non issue.

So it's a perfectly good choice for many people.

Its kind of funny that you continually insist that evs are a FANTASTIC CHOICE FOR EVERYONE and don't like arguments to the contrary, but then dismiss other people's choices

There's a lot of people that would be a perfect car for, and it would eliminate the vast majority of their emissions, probably over 90 percent on average. But for that once in a while when they DO have to make a long distance trip or do a lot of driving in one day, they don't have ANY of the charging issues to worry about.

herbie · June 1

On 5/30/2025 at 6:35 AM, Boges said:

The Outlander PHEV is not a good car.

Only if you exclude the sales price, the size of the vehicle, the intended use of the vehicle etc to determine what is 'good'. Their only strike against them in my book as coming off owning a Saturn Vue, they're underpowered for my liking and bigger than I need. As I've mentioned, where I live and my lifestyle the Outlander gas engine would only kick in once a week. So the consumption of it is not a major deal.
Even CdnFox posted the specs showing it's value. And you can regain that charge from a wall plug while you're sleeping.

Just came back from 2 more dealers in Prince George BC that so not even have a hybrid ^ two more shitty excuses as to why. Biggest selling segment in the auto market and almost none of the dealers even have one on the lot.

All retailers "Beyond Hope" have to learn 'we can order it for you' is good only for an instant "f*ck off then" from customers. It's 2025 we can all "order it" online, delivered to our f*cking door for far less than you charge. And it's been that way over a decade.

CdnFox · June 1

31 minutes ago, herbie said:

Only if you exclude the sales price, the size of the vehicle, the intended use of the vehicle etc to determine what is 'good'.

This is your problem from the beginning. You feel you are the only person who can decide and determine what is good.

That's not your call to make for other people

Boges · June 2

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

This is your problem from the beginning. You feel you are the only person who can decide and determine what is good.

That's not your call to make for other people

An SUV with a moderate sized battery that can only get 50 kms of EV only range is only really good for people that have short commutes. When a car like this is used on a road-trip it ends up actually using up more fuel because of the additional weight.

It's better to use a traditional hybrid that helps with city driving by reducing the effort of the engine at slower speeds and can kick in occasionally while cruising.

herbie · Saturday at 09:23 PM

On 6/2/2025 at 7:45 AM, Boges said:

An SUV with a moderate sized battery that can only get 50 kms of EV only range is only really good for people that have short commutes

"only"? The short commutes that 90% of us use our vehicles for 90% of the time?
You seem to have forgot the goal is to reduce overall carbon emissions which hybrids actually do. They serve as the interim step towards ZEVs and buy time to gather resources, supply and bulk manufacturing battery and fuel cell alternatives.

Hell, I'm waiting for Mazda to make a Plug In rotary LNG/Propane generator to run an electric AWD like a diesel locomotive's drive train. Efficiency at it's best. Fill & charge at home on the cheap and no range anxiety.

CdnFox · Saturday at 09:42 PM

12 minutes ago, herbie said:

"only"? The short commutes that 90% of us use our vehicles for 90% of the time?
You seem to have forgot the goal is to reduce overall carbon emissions which hybrids actually do. They serve as the interim step towards ZEVs and buy time to gather resources, supply and bulk manufacturing battery and fuel cell alternatives.

Hell, I'm waiting for Mazda to make a Plug In rotary LNG/Propane generator to run an electric AWD like a diesel locomotive's drive train. Efficiency at it's best. Fill & charge at home on the cheap and no range anxiety.

I have to say this is absolutely accurate.

"Commuting is a fact of life for many Canadians. In 2016, 12.6 million Canadians reported that they commuted to work by car. For these commuters, the average duration of the commute was 24 minutes, and the median distance to work among those who had a usual workplace was 8.7 kilometres.

And more importantly it's one of the most wasteful energy commutes because a lot of the time wines are being spent in traffic or idling at stop signs. So you grossly disproportionately reduce emissions when those commutes are made by electric engines which don't run while you are sitting at a stoplight.

In fact if you follow the research the vast vast majority of people would be able to go to work and come home on a single charge, excluding those people who have to drive to different work locations like contractors or the like.

And even for those people who can't make it the entire way, even if 50% of their drive is now by electrics and the rest is done by engine you've still cut carbon emissions radically. And hybrid engines these days produce less exhaust then ice engines that are revving and slowing constantly. Many of the hybrid engines today are only generators, optimized to run at a constant speed and output power.

This is what computer experts have long referred to as the 92% solution. This is the premise that you can get 92% of the way to where you need to be at a reasonable price and high efficiency. For every 2% above that you want to go you double the price and you start introducing bugs and other problems to the equation.

Hybrids are an excellent 92% solution which would radically reduce emissions drastically and wouldn't require a lot of new infrastructure to do it.