It Begins. . . Quebec and NYC to implement Vaccine Passports.

[Boges]

Just now, Goddess said:

Yes.  Most of the unvaxxed don't even notice either.

Well new 900 cases today in Ontario. Many more, per capita, out West. Vast Majority unvaxxed.

Those people noticed. 

The Unvaxxed are driving cases and Hospitalizations. It's and objective fact. 

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations

This is considering Unvaxxed make up only around 1/3 of the population. 

[Winston]

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well new 900 cases today in Ontario. Many more, per capita, out West. Vast Majority unvaxxed.

Those people noticed. 

The Unvaxxed are driving cases and Hospitalizations. It's and objective fact. 

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations

This is considering Unvaxxed make up only around 1/3 of the population. 

If empirical statistics are to be used as a comparison source of driving cases, the number tested (ratio) in each group must be known in order to make a conclusion. 

Is there a cite we can find that shows the ratio of tests to positive outcomes for each group?

Hospitalizations for unvaccinated are much higher than for partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated. 

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Not the point.  

It is the point.  If obesity, smoking, drinking etc could be solved by a simple shot, and people refused because "my body, my choice", how irresponsible would you consider those people?  Is there some reason the rest of us should pay for their healthcare?

Now, I personally don't think we should refuse healthcare to people who are sick due to their life choices.  But I certainly understand the frustration of seeing that irresponsible behavior and knowing it's  outcome for so many.    

 

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

If obesity, smoking, drinking etc could be solved by a simple shot,

Whether its a simple shot or a simple thing like not going to McDonald's, what's the difference.

Again, I'm not anti-vax. I've had vaccines all my life, my kids were vaxxed as children.   Yes, Covid is deadlier than a regular flu, but we don't all face the same risks.  And the vaccine IS causing other issues in people who otherwise had a 99.8% chance of surviving Covid, no matter how much you and others here want to pretend it's "perfectly safe."  There is no other vaccine that kills and injures as many people as this vax does.  For an illness with a 99. whatever (it varies between studies) survival rate.

I have lived with a higher-than-mild heart murmur my whole life, so I take care of my heart health.  The people, including very young ones, who develop serious myocarditis and will now have heart issues their whole lives - that could be me.  So do I take my chances with Covid and have a 99.whatever shot? Or risk losing my life to having been forced to take the shot?

Frankly, I haven't decided yet which way I want to die - covid or heart attack.  I think my lungs are in better shape than my heart.  Either way - my risk of Covid is low.  My risk of myocarditis from taking the shot is low.  So I mask, I wash my hands, I'm careful where I go.  But I think I'd still like it to be my choice.  And I resent being called a "moron" for having to make that choice.  Nor do I want to risk a heart issue just to give people like Boges the illusion of safety.  

Edited September 2, 2021 by Goddess

[Boges]

1 hour ago, Winston said:

If empirical statistics are to be used as a comparison source of driving cases, the number tested (ratio) in each group must be known in order to make a conclusion. 

Is there a cite we can find that shows the ratio of tests to positive outcomes for each group?

Hospitalizations for unvaccinated are much higher than for partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated. 

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-multi-month-high-of-nearly-900-covid-19-cases-14-more-deaths-1.5570833

Quote

Provincial labs processed 27,293 specimens, generating a positivity rate of at least three per cent.

3% isn't terrible but it was below 1% for awhile. 

The numbers are going in the wrong direction and it's still summer and school starts next week. 

Hospitalizations are also up. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Boges

[Boges]

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Whether its a simple shot or a simple thing like not going to McDonald's, what's the difference.

Oh so that would solve the Obesity problem? Good to know. 

[Infidel Dog]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

So you have "stats" for this that don't include VAERS? 

Why wouldn't I include VAERS?

It's a government agency and as I understand it the criticism of it is that it doesn't include comorbidities.

But again that critique could include almost all North American Covid data. Not just VAERS. So if we're going to dump one we should dump it all. Now what's your argument? Still sure Covid is even something we should be worrying about?

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Boges]

13 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Why wouldn't I include VAERS?

It's a government agency and as I understand it the criticism of it is that it doesn't include comorbidities.

But again that critique could include almost all North American Covid data. Not just VAERS. So if we're going to dump one we should dump it all. Now what's your argument? Still sure Covid is even something we should be worrying about?

The reports of deaths can't be verified. 

https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html

• Quote

   

  • Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
  • Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
  • The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
  • VAERS data are limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
  • VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

   

   

How did the vaccine cause these deaths? Or were they just examples of correlation vs causation. 

With hundreds of millions of Americans getting the vaccine, it's quite possible, even likely, some would die within a few days or weeks. 

And I know the retort. We can say the same about COVID death totals.

And I would respond that all deaths reported should be investigated.

We know it's happening in Ontario, where daily death totals aren't usually deaths that happened that day, but after an investigation. Sometimes the death happened days, weeks or months after it's reported. 

Ontario reported 14 deaths today. Few actually died yesterday. 
https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-multi-month-high-of-nearly-900-covid-19-cases-14-more-deaths-1.5570833

Quote

 

The province continues to not report recent COVID-19 deaths in real time. On Thursday, a spokesperson for the minister of health said four the deaths occurred in the last seven days, with the remaining 10 occurring “more than a week ago.”

Of 82 deaths reported in the last two weeks, 39 reportedly occurred more than two months ago but were just disclosed recently due to ongoing investigations, 23 occurred last week or earlier and 20 occurred in the past week.

 

Also, I suspect many COVID-19 deaths are established because the person had been hospitalized for a good period of time. A big problem with COVID is that people tend to linger on a Ventilator for weeks before expiring.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Boges

[dialamah]

40 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I have lived with a higher-than-mild heart murmur my whole life,

Yes, I have a minor heart condition as well, along with mild asthma, along with being in the "older cohort".  There are  millions more of us "vulnerable" than the "protect the vulnerable" crowd realize.  If all of us stayed home to "protect' ourselves from Covid - as they suggest - the economy would come to a halt.

40 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I haven't decided yet which way I want to die - covid or heart attack.  But I think I'd still like it to be my choice. 

There have bee 13,000 adverse affects among the 54 million doses given in Canada so far.  Over 9,000 of them were non-serious; 3500 were serious (I think two people have died).  That's an adverse reaction among .0001666% of all the vaccines so far administered.  The rate for serious adverse reaction is -- well, my little calculator couldn't calculate it because it was such a small number.  And the number for deaths is vanishingly small.

There have been 1.5 million Canadians diagnosed with Covid; 26,000 people have died.  That's a death rate of .17% - yes, less than 2%.  And that number does not include the "long-haulers", those that survive but are off work from weeks, to months to .... well, who knows how l long.  Some experts think that number is about 10% of all cases - even those not officially diagnosed.  But we won't know those numbers for sure till well after the pandemic has ended.

All those numbers are small, of course, but you are more at risk from Covid than from the vaccine.   The  difference is that you get to choose a vaccine, while Covid chooses you.

40 minutes ago, Goddess said:

nd the vaccine IS causing other issues in people who otherwise had a 99.8% chance of surviving Covid, no matter how much you and others here want to pretend it's "perfectly safe." 

This is what all anti-vaxers say:  It's more dangerous than government/big pharma want you to believe!   Nobody with even a modicum of common sense thinks all vaccines are safe all the time; however, they're safer than getting the disease they're protecting you from.  We all have to balance risks, whether it's driving in the snow or jumping out a plane. 

40 minutes ago, Goddess said:

And I resent being called a "moron" for having to make that choice.

The "moron" applies to those who have the idea that .00017% is the same or better odds than .17%.  Is that you?

Edited September 2, 2021 by dialamah

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yes, I have a minor heart condition as well, along with mild asthma, along with being in the "older cohort".  There are  millions more of us "vulnerable" than the "protect the vulnerable" crowd realize.  If all of us stayed home to "protect' ourselves from Covid - as they suggest - the economy would come to a halt.

There have bee 13,000 adverse affects among the 54 million doses given in Canada so far.  Over 9,000 of them were non-serious; 3500 were serious (I think two people have died).  That's an adverse reaction among .0001666% of all the vaccines so far administered.  The rate for serious adverse reaction is -- well, my little calculator couldn't calculate it because it was such a small number.  And the number for deaths is vanishingly small.

There have been 1.5 million Canadians diagnosed with Covid; 26,000 people have died.  That's a death rate of .17% - yes, less than 2%.  And that number does not include the "long-haulers", those that survive but are off work from weeks, to months to .... well, who knows how l long.  Some experts think that number is about 10% of all cases - even those not officially diagnosed.  But we won't know those numbers for sure till well after the pandemic has ended.

All those numbers are small, of course, but you are more at risk from Covid than from the vaccine.   The  difference is that you get to choose a vaccine, while Covid chooses you.

This is what all anti-vaxers say:  It's more dangerous than government/big pharma want you to believe!   Nobody with even a modicum of common sense thinks all vaccines are safe all the time; however, they're safer than getting the disease they're protecting you from.  We all have to balance risks, whether it's driving in the snow or jumping out a plane. 

The "moron" applies to those who have the idea that .00017% is the same or better odds than .17%.  Is that you?

I've discussed this with my doctor, which you are not one.

I'm sorry I'm not one of the "We're all going to die!!!!!!" crowd.  I haven't been from the beginning.

I imagine Boges was one of the ones hoarding toilet paper at the beginning of this.

[Winston]

44 minutes ago, Boges said:

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-multi-month-high-of-nearly-900-covid-19-cases-14-more-deaths-1.5570833

3% isn't terrible but it was below 1% for awhile. 

The numbers are going in the wrong direction and it's still summer and school starts next week. 

Hospitalizations are also up. 

Thanks for the cite, I was hoping to find out the test to positive ratios of each group. Out of how many of the 27,293 specimens were vaccinated group, partially vaccinated group and unvaccinated group?

This would help understand the percentages per group and numbers tested positive ratio. 

[Infidel Dog]

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

And I know the retort. We can say the same about COVID death totals.

You're right. We can. This is from your link.

Quote

 The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.

And just as you said we can say the same about COVID death totals and political prejudices built into the bureaucracy trickling down to doctors and bean counters.

And you can't trust the media either. 

I'll give an example using what you were talking about how death count can change over time in Ontario.

Do you remember I was telling you how I've been watching the Florida data on Worldometer and it's weird how 3 or 4 days ago the number is really low but give it a few more days and more deaths will be added?

Well that's because of what you were talking about for Ontario. But in Florida where the media hates its Governor they're all over him for changing the way the data is recorded. They tell you therefore the recorded decline in deaths is false.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253796898.html

OK, that's a lie. It's true but it's also false. Using the worldometer data you can see that's true about data that's only a few days old but watch it for a few days and you'll see those same numbers for those days increase. Even so, observe the slope of the graph. It's still a declne. A dramatic decline. The media is lying.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, Winston said:

Thanks for the cite, I was hoping to find out the test to positive ratios of each group. Out of how many of the 27,293 specimens were vaccinated group, partially vaccinated group and unvaccinated group?

This would help understand the percentages per group and numbers tested positive ratio. 

Quote

 

The Ministry says partially vaccinated, unvaccinated and those with unknown status made up 692 cases, or 80 per cent of the infections detected.

One-hundred and seventy three fully-vaccinated people tested positive for COVID-19, making up 20 per cent of the total.

Unvaccinated and partially vaccinated people make up 33 per cent of Ontario’s population.

 

80% of new cases are unvaccinated. And that is compounded by the fact that 2/3 of Ontarians are full vaccinated. 

I suspect many vaccinated people are being infected, but not getting tested. You need to have symptoms to get tested. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Boges

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I've discussed this with my doctor, which you are not one.

I'm sorry I'm not one of the "We're all going to die!!!!!!" crowd.  I haven't been from the beginning.

I imagine Boges was one of the ones hoarding toilet paper at the beginning of this.

If you're doc said don't get vaccine, then don't.  But as this is the first time you've mentioned your doc, I'm guessing they didn't explicitly say "The vaccine is more dangerous than Covid for you".

I didn't wear a mask outside during even the worst part of Covid in plague central here, didn't hoard toilet paper, didn't buy up loads of hand sanitizer, regularly forgot to wash my hands after shopping.  Somehow I also survived.  But just because I wasn't fanatical about precautions doesn't mean I think Covid isn't extremely serious or that a vaccine is more dangerous than Covid 

[Infidel Dog]

And again one could caution people to remember Ontario is not the center of the universe.

Personally I don't trust their data. However, even if you did you're just as likely to be infected by the 1/5 of the infected population that is vaccinated - in fact moreso because it's a much larger demographic than the unvaccinated.

So what's with the Jim Crow, apartheid style segregation of punishing legal prejudices against the unvaccinated.

And I know this is sacrilege to some of you but if you look at data beyond Ontario you'll discover there are regions with vaccination rates as high as 90% and they're still getting infected. What will happen then?

History shows us when the public looks the other way from authoritarian impositions against one group they'll be next.

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But just because I wasn't fanatical about precautions doesn't mean I think Covid isn't extremely serious or that a vaccine is more dangerous than Covid 

Just because I'm not fanatical about forcing everyone to vax and propose denying healthcare to those who choose not to (for whatever reason), doesn't mean I think Covid isn't serious or the vax is more deadly, either.

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But as this is the first time you've mentioned your doc,

Conversation progresses.  There was nothing "sinister" about not mentioning a conversation with him before. 

 

 

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Just because I'm not fanatical about forcing everyone to vax and propose denying healthcare to those who choose not to (for whatever reason), doesn't mean I think Covid isn't serious or the vax is more deadly, either.

Given your comment about having to choose between dying of Covid or the vaccine, you seem to think the risk is the same.  

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

There was nothing "sinister" about not mentioning a conversation with him before. 

Being skeptical isn't the same as thinking something is "sinister".

Skeptical:. not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations.

Sinister:. giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen.

[Boges]

10 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

And again one could caution people to remember Ontario is not the center of the universe.

Personally I don't trust their data. However, even if you did you're just as likely to be infected by the 1/5 of the infected population that is vaccinated - in fact moreso because it's a much larger demographic than the unvaccinated.

So what's with the Jim Crow, apartheid style segregation of punishing legal prejudices against the unvaccinated.

And I know this is sacrilege to some of you but if you look at data beyond Ontario you'll discover there are regions with vaccination rates as high as 90% and they're still getting infected. What will happen then?

History shows us when the public looks the other way from authoritarian impositions against one group they'll be next.

And know this has become a circular argument. But a vaccinated person is much MUCH less likely to get sick than a an unvaccinated person. 

We see with Hospitalization data, that 80-90% of the Hospitalized are unvaccinated, even though they make up 30% of the population. 

The Passport in isolated to unessential indoor activities, in large groups, where mask wearing is unlikely and/or difficult. So the Jim Crow comparison is ridiculous. 

Hospitalizations are already going up amongst the unvaccinated. The passport is an incentive to get vaccinated and. . . YES a punishment for those that choose not to because they're way more likely to get sick. So they probably shouldn't be in large indoor groups unmasked. 

I know you disagree, but a majority of governments in this country do agree. So here were are. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Boges

[Infidel Dog]

11 minutes ago, Boges said:

The Passport in isolated to unessential indoor activities, in large groups, where mask wearing is unlikely and/or difficult. So the Jim Crow comparison is ridiculous. 

Are you talking about Ontario again?

Because where I am they're blocking restaurants, concerts, sporting event and once the gullibles get used to being compliant I suspect restrictions to increase. I think you're going to need a passport to fly or use public transportation too. I don't see back of the bus days as being too far away.

During Jim Crow days there were white only restaurants so how is the comparison ridiculous.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Infidel Dog said:

Are you talking about Ontario again?

Yes. They announced their passport yesterday. I hear BC's is a bit more extreme. 

Quote

Because where I am they're blocking restaurants, concerts, sporting event and once the gullibles get used to being compliant I suspect restrictions to increase. I think you're going to need a passport to fly or use public transportation too. I don't see back of the bus days as being too far away.

One would hope this encourages vaccination, so maybe they don't need to expand. Ontario is initially not blocking retail or personal care to unvaccinated. 

But if numbers increase, I can see that added. 

I too am going to be skeptical if they resort to Lockdowns again. I'm hoping they won't.

But the vaccine passport thing is broadly popular in Canada. Opponents are on the fringe here.

Quote

During Jim Crow there were white only restaurants so how is the comparison ridiculous.

Jim Crow wasn't a public health policy. 

[Infidel Dog]

BTW, still think a week of data matters...or is that just for Ontario?

Whatever...Florida hospitalizations have been declining this week.

Quote

The Florida Hospital Association reported 14,886 COVID-19 hospitalizations across the state Wednesday, down from a high of nearly 17,000 last month.

“Right now we are seeing very encouraging trends. Our hospitalizations have dropped dramatically," Florida Hospital Association President and CEO Mary Mayhew said on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" Thursday

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/sarasota-memorial-hospital-reports-significant-drop-in-covid-19-patients-thursday/ar-AAO1QqY

[Infidel Dog]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

Jim Crow wasn't a public health policy. 

Depends on who you asked. Jump in your time machine  and go ask one of those guys who didn't want to drink out of a water fountain that wasn't white only why that was?

[Goddess]

38 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Given your comment about having to choose between dying of Covid or the vaccine, you seem to think the risk is the same.  

As I said, the risk of either is infinitesimally small. I never said "the same". I said both are low risk. For me.

38 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Being skeptical isn't the same as thinking something is "sinister".

Skeptical:. not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations.

Sinister:. giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen.

Why you would be "skeptical" of anyone talking to their doctor about covid and not mentioning it until the conversation allows it,  is "sinister" thinking, IMO.

[Infidel Dog]

OK, some of you can go back to sleep. This doesn't involve Ontario.

Here's a good read on breaking news for the rest of you.

No-Lockdown Sweden Bans Travel from Ultra-Vaxxed, Locked Down Israel Over Covid Spikes

[Infidel Dog]

Keep 'er on snooze control, Ontario-yos. This one tells us how they've been manipulating statistics in America. It might apply to Ontario too but your media would never let you know about it if it did, so by prog logic no need to worry.

I just want to archive this in case I need it later:

Boosters and the War on the Unvaxxed: Preparing for the Coming Covid Case and Death Spike