Canadians Need to Support Trump

[Guest ProudConservative]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, that is not going to happen, mostly because of Asia, Africa, and Europe....and increasingly Central and South America.

Hurting China really good would have many unintended (negative) consequences.   The best you can hope for is a more compliant and balanced trade regime.

We should be buying from all those places, so we don't have to buy from China.

Senator Pauline Hanson say's it best.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Shady]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

We're the same people who speak up when the festering asshole down the street is beating his wife and kids.

No. We make it our business for the same reason we make the aforementioned festering asshole our business and further to that we place tariffs on goods from other countries who don't.

 

Probably not what you or your buddy Trudeau wanted to hear is it? Note the phrase over economic opportunity? That pretty much sounds like people want to see virtue taking precedent over economics and that people don't even want to sell stuff to China let alone buy anything.

Once China's people reform their government and get their house in order the sooner we can resume trading.

That doesn't make any sense.  Festering asshole down the street is in our country, breaking our laws, related to our culture.  You're grasping at straws now.  Regardless, your strategy of not trading with countries until they so-called reform sounds a lot like American policy related to Cuba.  It's been 60 years and counting.  Learn from history.

[eyeball]

51 minutes ago, Shady said:

That doesn't make any sense.  Festering asshole down the street is in our country, breaking our laws, related to our culture.  You're grasping at straws now. 

Of course it makes sense you just don't it because you pack water for festering assholes.  The festering asshole is on our planet breaking international laws related to human culture and society. I have a firm grip on a solid principle. All you have is shit.

Quote

Regardless, your strategy of not trading with countries until they so-called reform sounds a lot like American policy related to Cuba.  It's been 60 years and counting.  Learn from history.

American policy as it relates to dictators is based on unprincipled shit and has been for 60 years and counting. Cubans obviously aren't buying it and judging by the respectability so many dictators have been afforded neither are billions of other people around the planet.  No one looks to the States for the kind of principled leadership putting dictators out of business requires anymore.

Edited May 15, 2020 by eyeball

[Boges]

I'd like to point out that doing business with China because of their low cost labour is the most Capitalistic thing I can imagine. 

The idea that Globalism is now something that Conservatives don't like is quite funny. 

Bring those jobs back, but be willing to take less profits and pay more for certain products. 

I'm sure no one here watched American Factory because of its connection with the Obamas. But it does highlight how the Chinese don't value individualism at all. You're taught to be a cog in the wheel and not dream for anything above your station. The Chinese scoff at Americans who don't want to do unsafe work and expect a weekend. It's tough to compete wth that mindset from a productivity perspective. 

[eyeball]

19 minutes ago, Boges said:

The Chinese scoff at Americans who don't want to do unsafe work and expect a weekend. It's tough to compete wth that mindset from a productivity perspective. 

It's even tougher when so many conservatives here joined in scoffing at people they regarded as lazy overpaid slackers whenever they complained about the loss of manufacturing industry or the lousy human, labour and environmental standards they had to compete against.

That said I doubt the Western execs making more by noon on Jan 1st than their employees do by Dec 31st or CCP oligarchs enjoying similar inequities joke about one another's 'productivity'. Nod and wink is more like it.  

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by eyeball

[New World Disorder]

34 minutes ago, Boges said:

I'd like to point out that doing business with China because of their low cost labour is the most Capitalistic thing I can imagine. 

The idea that Globalism is now something that Conservatives don't like is quite funny. 

Bring those jobs back, but be willing to take less profits and pay more for certain products. 

I'm sure no one here watched American Factory because of its connection with the Obamas. But it does highlight how the Chinese don't value individualism at all. You're taught to be a cog in the wheel and not dream for anything above your station. The Chinese scoff at Americans who don't want to do unsafe work and expect a weekend. It's tough to compete wth that mindset from a productivity perspective. 

Consider the cost we are now paying because of the CCP Virus, time to move manufacturing out of China.

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Consider the cost we are now paying because of the CCP Virus, time to move manufacturing out of China.

A shareholder to a large corporation may disagree with you. 

[New World Disorder]

Just now, Boges said:

A shareholder to a large corporation may disagree with you. 

Could not care less,  shareholders only have making money in mind, even if it ends up killing that company.     Screw the shareholders. These are the same people that love bailouts when their sector fails. Meaning there really is no capitalism or free enterprise.

Also being concerned about shareholders instead of people being able to earn a decent wage is the absolute wrong way to look at it.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, New World Disorder said:

Could not care less,  shareholders only have making money in mind, even if it ends up killing that company.     Screw the shareholders. These are the same people that love bailouts when their sector fails. Meaning there really is no capitalism or free enterprise.

Also being concerned about shareholders instead of people being able to earn a decent wage is the absolute wrong way to look at it.

Commie! 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Boges

[New World Disorder]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

Commie! 

Many corporations and shareholders love and enjoy and welcome the 'benefits' of communism by operating out of China.

[Moonbox]

22 minutes ago, Boges said:

I'd like to point out that doing business with China because of their low cost labour is the most Capitalistic thing I can imagine. 

The idea that Globalism is now something that Conservatives don't like is quite funny. 

Bring those jobs back, but be willing to take less profits and pay more for certain products. 

I'm sure no one here watched American Factory because of its connection with the Obamas. But it does highlight how the Chinese don't value individualism at all. You're taught to be a cog in the wheel and not dream for anything above your station. The Chinese scoff at Americans who don't want to do unsafe work and expect a weekend. It's tough to compete wth that mindset from a productivity perspective. 

Not really, because the willingness to be a "cog in the wheel" is also associated to lack of innovation and ambition, two of the central pillars of the American economy.  Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, but the Chinese system currently relies on forcing foreign companies that want to do business in China to share tech and production secrets, and also on foreign acquisition.  The cultural and institutional framework enforced by the Communist Party makes it extremely difficult to allow "innovation" to occur naturally.  You need to have a Communist Party rep supervising any organization of more than 50 people, and these aren't the most open-minded thinkers.  Despite astounding public funding to Chinese Universities, the flow of ideas is controlled centrally by Party secretaries and the like.  

This is another area where Trump, despite all of his flaws, is actually right.  Something should be done about protecting intellectual property in China.  

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Many corporations and shareholders love and enjoy and welcome the 'benefits' of communism by operating out of China.

It's quite ironic. I know. 

Look, I'm not arguing that doing business with China is a good thing. Though they do buy a lot of natural resources. 

I'm just saying that there would be consequences to forcing North American businesses to stop doing business in China. I suspect those jobs will go to places like India or Thailand and not back home. 

[Boges]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Not really, because the willingness to be a "cog in the wheel" is also associated to lack of innovation and ambition, two of the central pillars of the American economy.  Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, but the Chinese system currently relies on forcing foreign companies that want to do business in China to share tech and production secrets, and also on foreign acquisition.  The cultural and institutional framework enforced by the Communist Party makes it extremely difficult to allow "innovation" to occur naturally.  You need to have a Communist Party rep supervising any organization of more than 50 people, and these aren't the most open-minded thinkers.  Despite astounding public funding to Chinese Universities, the flow of ideas is controlled centrally by Party secretaries and the like.  

This is another area where Trump, despite all of his flaws, is actually right.  Something should be done about protecting intellectual property in China.  

I don't disagree with any of this. But the natural progression of unfettered capitalism is doing business with an oppressive communist regime to cut labour costs. 

It's ironic, that's all. 

[New World Disorder]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

It's quite ironic. I know. 

Look, I'm not arguing that doing business with China is a good thing. Though they do buy a lot of natural resources. 

I'm just saying that there would be consequences to forcing North American businesses to stop doing business in China. I suspect those jobs will go to places like India or Thailand and not back home. 

If we need to diversify then we should for it. We've always been dealing with Taiwan for manufacturing anyways, especially when it comes to computer equipment.

We've already seen the consequences of moving manufacturing to China, all those jobs move there and people are out of work here.

[Moonbox]

Canada had pretty much its lowest unemployment rate ever leading up to the recent recession.  There's nothing sacrosanct about "those jobs".  It's actually good for the economy to lose jobs with inflated wages supported by trade protectionism and militant unions.  It leads to improved productivity elsewhere.  In the case of steel production, for example, US tariffs on Chinese steel has actually led directly to significant downstream job losses, far more than were brought back by a "revived" steel industry.  

Unfortunately one of the ancillary effects seems to be be a further polarization of wealth.  This has more to do with an extremely shitty system of taxation in western economy than on globalization itself.  It's actually kind of sickening to see how little tax a lot of the wealthy pay.  I'm not even talking about the super-rich, who only pay a fraction of what they should.  Just the average Joe-millionaire, with a bit of planning, can pay less than half the oft-quoted 53% top rate that the rich typically bemoan.  Very, very few are paying these rates.  

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

Unfortunately one of the ancillary effects seems to be be a further polarization of wealth.  This has more to do with an extremely shitty system of taxation in western economy than on globalization itself.  It's actually kind of sickening to see how little tax a lot of the wealthy pay.  I'm not even talking about the super-rich, who only pay a fraction of what they should.  Just the average Joe-millionaire, with a bit of planning, can pay less than half the oft-quoted 53% top rate that the rich typically bemoan.  Very, very few are paying these rates.  

A lot of it is related to different tax rates on different forms of income. To my mind, all income should be taxed at the same rate. The exception I make is for people saving for their retirement, who need the tax benefits on dividends and capital gains. In these days where so few have real pensions, I don't think you can rely on just what you can put in your RRSP, especially since so many leave it late (because they can't afford it when younger). But even those should be adjusted above a certain level. I mean, if you're getting half a million a year in dividends you should be paying the full tax.

[Moonbox]

Even non-exempt dividends and capital gains should receive preferential treatment.  These are important encouragement for investment in productive activity. 

More problematic is the byzantine nature of our tax system and the complicated (but more or less legal) schemes that business owners use to avoid taxes while they run their businesses and when they transfer the wealth to their family on death.

Their not content with just the (more or less) legitimate tax mitigation strategies either.  On top of that they grossly abuse the rules around business deductions, salaries to family and anything else they can reliably get away with.  

I'm a financial planner by trade and see it all of the time, and while I don't blame them for it, I do think CRA is a joke and needs substantial attention and investment.  It's the same in the US with the IRS.  It won't happen, however, and the reason is pretty obvious.  The people abusing the tax system are also generally the ones holding political office.