Argus Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shady said: Use logic when you post, not emotion. Logic says you don't know a thing about medicine, and that the people who do predict 300k dead if we don't do this. That's just the dead. That doesn't count all the people who are hospitalized, currently about 8% of those who get it. So that would be like over a million people. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Shady Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Argus said: Logic says you don't know a thing about medicine, and that the people who do predict 300k dead if we don't do this. That's just the dead. That doesn't count all the people who are hospitalized, currently about 8% of those who get it. So that would be like over a million people. Either do you. The hospitalization rate is barely higher than the hospitalization rate of pneumonia. Furthermore, the vast majority of hospitalization is high risk people over 65. Regardless, those estimates are if nothing is done, and over a number of months or years. Not all at once. The regular flu has killed hundreds of thousands in North America if you want to cumulatively count a 10 of 15 year span. 1 Quote
Argus Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Shady said: Either do you. The hospitalization rate is barely higher than the hospitalization rate of pneumonia. The hospitalization rate for pneumonia? Have you ever had pneumonia? It's not a pleasant thing. And even many of those who survive it have permanent lung damage. 2 minutes ago, Shady said: Furthermore, the vast majority of hospitalization is high risk people over 65. Regardless, those estimates are if nothing is done, and over a number of months or years. Not all at once. The regular flu has killed hundreds of thousands in North America if you want to cumulatively count a 10 of 15 year span. And the doctors say this would kill 300k-350k in a year here, and ten times that in the US. What do you think the cumulative count of that would be over ten to fifteen years? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
WestCanMan Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 2 hours ago, dialamah said: No pulse or blood pressure, among others. Doctor dies after taking hcq. Also, might be toxic for diabetes patients. 1) If this stuff is true, then it should be easy to find more instances of this from before trump was touting the drugs. 2 of those articles are from Feb 2020 or later. 2) the list of side effects from the 2019 article include things that only occur with much larger doses, over extremely prolonged periods of time. Eg, the eye problems occur after about 5 straight yrs of 400mg/day, or a cumulative total dose of 1000grams (1 Kg). So you could do the 5 years, you just can't do 5 years straight. It takes 6.8 years at 400mg/day to hit the 1kg max. (2,500 doses of 400mg). Covid patients would be taking this medication for a week or less. I don't think Dr Oz is an idiot, or that he has a hidden agenda, and he said that the side effects of taking the type of dose that covid patients take is so low that doctors who administer it to lupus patients aren't giving them the warning list. A small percentage of people will get a slight rash or an upset stomach. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
WestCanMan Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: The worst thing about that drug is that Trump likes it. Sadly, that's 100% true. I can promise you that if Joe Biden was the first person of note in America who started pimping HCQ as a possible solution then CNN and MSNBC would be calling it "God's Chosen Panacea". Quote Based on experience, everything he says is incorrect, or a deception. Again, based on your experience, that's 100% true, because you get all your Trump experience from CNN. Quote So why waste time looking into it ? If Trump likes it it must be a bad idea. That's how mistrust works. Hopefully Trump doesn't start talking about the importance of Oxygen, because it would be a pity to see 50M people in the US suffocate themselves out of spite. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
WestCanMan Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Argus said: We've had several months now of doctors around the world trying this and if it was 'the cure' we would know it by now. It's not. It might help somewhat in certain cases. Trump is pushing it because Trump is a moron who likes simple answers and probably saw it on FOX or something. Two is a couple, 3 is a few, several is 4 or more, so what you just said equates to saying that there have been doctors around the world trying HCQ on covid since the beginning of December. 1) You are 100% full of shit Argus, guaranteed, 2) Consensus behind covid has been growing steadily since the use of it first went public, not decreasing, and the main arguments against HCQ are debunked garbage from people who hate Trump so much that they would rather see hundreds of thousands of people die than see "Trump be right". And WTF, he didn't invent the drug and he wasn't the first person to consider using it for covid. He's just a messenger. Ironically, if HCQ does prove to be a pivotal weapon in the battle against covid, it will be Trump's detractors who have done the most to put the credit for the use of the drug on the POTUS lol. I hope it works because I don't want people to die, and I want our economy back on track, but I also want it to work just to watch America's foremost hate mongers eat the gigantic heapings of shit that they deserve lol. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
Argus Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Two is a couple, 3 is a few, several is 4 or more, so what you just said equates to saying that there have been doctors around the world trying HCQ on covid since the beginning of December. 1) You are 100% full of shit Argus, guaranteed, Oh dry up, cultist. If Trump said eating dog shit was the thing to do you've out on all fours in the dog run parks licking the grass. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
WestCanMan Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Argus said: Oh dry up, cultist. If Trump said eating dog shit was the thing to do you've out on all fours in the dog run parks licking the grass. That's not an answer kid, and we both know that if one of us is guilty of being led around by the nose it's you. Let's go back to the Kavanaugh thread if you don't believe me. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
WestCanMan Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Shady said: Anyone that asks for a study on hydroxychloroquine is being intellectually dishonest, as they should know that since the virus is new, there hasn’t been time to do a thorough study that takes several months. People are sick and dying now. To ask somebody dying now to wait until a study comes out, just because orange man is bad is as mentally deranged as I’ve ever heard. Doctors prescribe off label uses all of the time. But only with well known drugs. Hydroxychloroquine is a well known drug that’s been around for decades. Al, possible side effects are already known. Most people can use the drug without any problems. But it’s still only available by a prescription from a doctor. So I’m not sure what all the fuss is about. Other than because Trump suggested it might work based on evidence from other doctors. If Trump insisted that it shouldn’t be used, the same people, particularly in the mainstream media, would be finding all of the reasons that it should be. Unfortunately orange man bad takes up most people’s thought process during the current crisis. LA doctor seeing success with hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 https://abc7.com/coronavirus-drug-covid-19-malaria-hydroxychloroquine/6079864/ I wanna believe, but that guy is the CEO of "Mend Urgent Care", and if there's anyone who could benefit from overstating the effectiveness of a covid treatment it's a guy who own/runs a clinic that provides (sells?) urgent care to very sick people. Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
WestCanMan Posted April 9, 2020 Report Posted April 9, 2020 Off-topic, I found it weird that that guy has at least 3 different sets of the "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys on the shelves behind him. There might be two smaller sets on the left. WTF does that say about a person? Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 On 4/6/2020 at 4:26 AM, betsy said: Dr Tam obviously tries to evade saying wearing a mask helps lessen the risk of acquiring and spreading the virus (and she goes on the usual talking point of physical distancing and washing your hands).....and yet, she emphasizes that asymptomatic people can spread the virus! I feel like I'm being fed bull! Here's the question: If you don't have the symptoms, how would you know you don't have it? HOW THE HECK DO I KNOW IF SOMEONE IS ASYMPTOMATIC? For all we know.....I COULD BE CARRYING THE VIRUS (ASYMPTOMATIC), AND I WOULDN'T KNOW IT EITHER! If the virus can hung in the air (from someone's breath), and you can possibly get it by inhaling that invisible breath - what good is washing your hands? You ALSO need a mask! The mask is there to protect me. Why should I leave it to faith that everyone will cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze? The mask is there to protect others (just in case I have the virus)! If they're worried about people rushing to buy medical masks - why don't they just say so, and keep reminding people to leave the medical masks alone for frontline workers? Tell people they need to have a face covering, for heavens sake! Be it a home-made face shield, a scarf, a balaclava......or, even a BURQUA! Betsy: First of all, please let me appologize. I had not noticed this thread over last while - did not mean to ignore you. I imagine Dr. Tam is reluctant to say you SHOULD wear a mask because of two very important things. - #1: a mask is meant to protect the wearer, but it takes an extremely good mask to even do that. Non-medical masks, or even a med mask not properly fitted are mediocre barriers for inhalation and terrible barriers for exhalation. While masks may be better than nothing for large drops of water, they are NOT by any means a single barrier that is effective - they are only one small part of a barrier system. #2: wearing of masks may make people feel safe, and THAT is the problem. If they feel safe, 2M distancing is gone. Watch videos or look at images of people wearing masks - they are usually crammed right together. See #1 to understand why that is a HUGE problem, and I expect that is what Dr. Tam is very aware of. Finally, the ongoing business of the virus settling when exhaled with water drops and droplets. Dougie in particular seems to think these are big chunks of lead that are going to slam to the ground as soon as you cough them up. MANY studies have shown (sorry, no time to look for citation right now) that it can remain airborne as much as 3 HOURS when exhaled. You see, we CONSTANTLY breathe out water droplets (we cough or sneeze drops, we breathe AND emit in coughs and sneezes very small droplets). Ever see fog? those are HUGE water droplets (so big you can see with the naked eye). They get bounced around by vibrating air molecules in spite of being hundreds of time more dense. You know that smoke that has been mentioned earlier? So damn big you can SEE them. Think you can see a CoViD virus (0.06 to 0.14 microns)? Common Items and their respective particle sizes: Postage Stamp, 1 inch high25,400 microns Eye of a Needle1,230 microns Human Hair40 to 300 microns Oil Smoke0.03 to 1 micron Fertilizer10 to 1000 microns Tobacco Smoke0.01 to 1 microns Coal Dust1 to 100 micronsBeach Sand100 to 2000 microns Mold Spores10 to 30 microns Pollens10 to 1000 microns Typical Atmospheric Dust0.001 to 30 microns If you breathe onto a cold mirror, you can see the water vapour you exhale constantly. From what I understand, virus can hitchike on these very small water droplets (too small to see), but in very low concentration. I assume THIS is what is hang around 3 hours. It IS right to fear the big drops, and they will settle much more quickly and become a major touch hazard. I can endorse wearing a mask ONLY if one maintains their 2M distance. Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) Edited April 10, 2020 by cannuck Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) oops Edited April 10, 2020 by cannuck Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) just cleaning up my mess...isn't there a delete post function??. Edited April 10, 2020 by cannuck Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 On 4/6/2020 at 4:26 AM, betsy said: Dr Tam obviously tries to evade saying wearing a mask helps lessen the risk of acquiring and spreading the virus (and she goes on the usual talking point of physical distancing and washing your hands).....and yet, she emphasizes that asymptomatic people can spread the virus! I feel like I'm being fed bull! Here's the question: If you don't have the symptoms, how would you know you don't have it? HOW THE HECK DO I KNOW IF SOMEONE IS ASYMPTOMATIC? For all we know.....I COULD BE CARRYING THE VIRUS (ASYMPTOMATIC), AND I WOULDN'T KNOW IT EITHER! If the virus can hung in the air (from someone's breath), and you can possibly get it by inhaling that invisible breath - what good is washing your hands? You ALSO need a mask! The mask is there to protect me. Why should I leave it to faith that everyone will cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze? The mask is there to protect others (just in case I have the virus)! If they're worried about people rushing to buy medical masks - why don't they just say so, and keep reminding people to leave the medical masks alone for frontline workers? Tell people they need to have a face covering, for heavens sake! Be it a home-made face shield, a scarf, a balaclava......or, even a BURQUA! Betsy: First of all, please let me appologize. I had not noticed this thread over last while - did not mean to ignore you. I imagine Dr. Tam is reluctant to say you SHOULD wear a mask because of two very important things. - #1: a mask is meant to protect the wearer, but it takes an extremely good mask to even do that. Non-medical masks, or even a med mask not properly fitted are mediocre barriers for inhalation and terrible barriers for exhalation. While masks may be better than nothing for large drops of water, they are NOT by any means a single barrier that is effective - they are only one small part of a barrier system. #2: wearing of masks may make people feel safe, and THAT is the problem. If they feel safe, 2M distancing is gone. Watch videos or look at images of people wearing masks - they are usually crammed right together. See #1 to understand why that is a HUGE problem, and I expect that is what Dr. Tam is very aware of. Finally, the ongoing business of the virus settling when exhaled with water drops and droplets. Dougie in particular seems to think these are big chunks of lead that are going to slam to the ground as soon as you cough them up. MANY studies have shown (sorry, no time to look for citation right now) that it can remain airborne as much as 3 HOURS when exhaled. You see, we CONSTANTLY breathe out water droplets (we cough or sneeze drops, we breathe AND emit in coughs and sneezes very small droplets). Ever see fog? those are HUGE water droplets (so big you can see with the naked eye). They get bounced around by vibrating air molecules in spite of being hundreds of time more dense. You know that smoke that has been mentioned earlier? So damn big you can SEE them. Think you can see a CoViD virus (0.06 to 0.14 microns)? Common Items and their respective particle sizes: Postage Stamp, 1 inch high25,400 microns Eye of a Needle1,230 microns Human Hair40 to 300 microns Oil Smoke0.03 to 1 micron Fertilizer10 to 1000 microns Tobacco Smoke0.01 to 1 microns Coal Dust1 to 100 micronsBeach Sand100 to 2000 microns Mold Spores10 to 30 microns Pollens10 to 1000 microns Typical Atmospheric Dust0.001 to 30 microns If you breathe onto a cold mirror, you can see the water vapour you exhale constantly. From what I understand, virus can hitchike on these very small water droplets (too small to see), but in very low concentration. I assume THIS is what is hang around 3 hours. It IS right to fear the big drops, and they will settle much more quickly and become a major touch hazard. I can endorse wearing a mask ONLY if one maintains their 2M distance. Quote
Rue Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 46 minutes ago, cannuck said: Ever see fog? those are HUGE water droplets (so big you can see with the naked eye). It IS right to fear the big drops, and they will settle much more quickly and become a major touch hazard. I agree with all you say and again thank you for adding to the discussion with valuable facts but express some minor hesitation to you precisely because of my respect for you and knowing you will not take it the wrong way. First, I believe the size of the droplets you speak of may not be understood by the person they are intended for or others without further context because I would remind you when people feel threatened or anxious as they are with this virus, they are prone to be triggered by their sense of powerlessness, anxiety and feeling threatened to exaggerate or amplify the size, nature and extent of the threat (virus). Also with due respect I believe you misrepresented what Dougie said. Soldiers learn projectile patterns from explosives, bullets, toxic gas, and witnessing spray from blood, vomit and other bodily fluids. They have knowledge of masks and other protective gear. Thanks but as much as I respect science, doctors and you and your well stated answer, I must respect what Dougie said and defend it. He only was stating that droplet movement has a pattern governed by gravity. 7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I Quote
betsy Posted April 10, 2020 Author Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, dialamah said: Who cares, really? I don't; it's just a mask, wear one if you want. You're a supporter of Trump, if I recall correctly. Funny how his constant message changes don't affect his "credibility". I don't follow up on Trump.....and, what news we get out of our mainstream media about him have been usually edited to suit their narrative. So, I don't really care what media says about him. :shrug: Our media is infected with TDS! TDS is everywhere. It's worse than covid-19! Just look at the posts on threads that keep bringing up irrelevant Trump! Tam, on the other hand, is supposed to be our Federal medical expert. We - including our PM - rely on her expertise. Her decisions (and statements) directly affect us Canadians. That's the difference! Edited April 10, 2020 by betsy 1 Quote
betsy Posted April 10, 2020 Author Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, eyeball said: It came from one of Donald Trump's bestest advisors, Tucker Carlson. "Breathing people?" I doubt you quoted him or understood him right. Why don't you cite your source so we can check it out? Anyway...... Lol. Who cares what Trump's advisers say? Focus on our own! Get a hold of your TDS! Though there's no vaccine (yet) for it.....you can do it. Bottom-line: Even Tam is now recommending for us to wear masks! It took quite a while for her to get to it but hey.......... better late than never! Edited April 10, 2020 by betsy Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, betsy said: Tam, on the other hand, is supposed to be our Federal medical expert. We - including our PM - rely on her expertise. Her decisions (and statements) directly affect us Canadians. That's the difference! True....American media is not obsessing over PM Trudeau and Dr. Tam. They are not responsible for what happens in the U.S. Nevertheless....Trump...Trump...Trump ! (in Canada) Edited April 10, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
betsy Posted April 10, 2020 Author Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, cannuck said: Betsy: First of all, please let me appologize. I had not noticed this thread over last while - did not mean to ignore you. I imagine Dr. Tam is reluctant to say you SHOULD wear a mask because of two very important things. - #1: a mask is meant to protect the wearer, but it takes an extremely good mask to even do that. Non-medical masks, or even a med mask not properly fitted are mediocre barriers for inhalation and terrible barriers for exhalation. While masks may be better than nothing for large drops of water, they are NOT by any means a single barrier that is effective - they are only one small part of a barrier system. #2: wearing of masks may make people feel safe, and THAT is the problem. If they feel safe, 2M distancing is gone. Watch videos or look at images of people wearing masks - they are usually crammed right together. See #1 to understand why that is a HUGE problem, and I expect that is what Dr. Tam is very aware of. Finally, the ongoing business of the virus settling when exhaled with water drops and droplets. Dougie in particular seems to think these are big chunks of lead that are going to slam to the ground as soon as you cough them up. MANY studies have shown (sorry, no time to look for citation right now) that it can remain airborne as much as 3 HOURS when exhaled. You see, we CONSTANTLY breathe out water droplets (we cough or sneeze drops, we breathe AND emit in coughs and sneezes very small droplets). Ever see fog? those are HUGE water droplets (so big you can see with the naked eye). They get bounced around by vibrating air molecules in spite of being hundreds of time more dense. You know that smoke that has been mentioned earlier? So damn big you can SEE them. Think you can see a CoViD virus (0.06 to 0.14 microns)? Common Items and their respective particle sizes: Postage Stamp, 1 inch high25,400 microns Eye of a Needle1,230 microns Human Hair40 to 300 microns Oil Smoke0.03 to 1 micron Fertilizer10 to 1000 microns Tobacco Smoke0.01 to 1 microns Coal Dust1 to 100 micronsBeach Sand100 to 2000 microns Mold Spores10 to 30 microns Pollens10 to 1000 microns Typical Atmospheric Dust0.001 to 30 microns If you breathe onto a cold mirror, you can see the water vapour you exhale constantly. From what I understand, virus can hitchike on these very small water droplets (too small to see), but in very low concentration. I assume THIS is what is hang around 3 hours. It IS right to fear the big drops, and they will settle much more quickly and become a major touch hazard. I can endorse wearing a mask ONLY if one maintains their 2M distance. Though I appreciate all your efforts to try to explain it..................... bottom-line: No one really fully understand this virus. All governments ALL OVER THE WORLD have their own medical experts that advice them (Federal and provincial, etc.,) They have varying approach to minimize the spread of this virus. You can see the differences in their advices. Have you seen the ad for Michigan. I can't help but see it every time I'm on Family Feud. In some places, wearing a mask in public is MANDATORY! I think Tam had stuck her neck out really way out there when she kept on about how masks won't really do you any good (but to protect others if you've got covid-19). That line is not consistent with the fact that even ASYMPTOMATIC people can spread the virus. Here is where it gets dicey: If you don't have any symptoms - how would you know you're not infected? Can you please explain that to me? I wouldn't be surprised that the reason we saw a lot of COMMUNITY SPREAD is due to the fact that asymptomatic people were unknowingly spreading the virus! Now, Tam is forced to back-pedal. She has to......because, her initial position regarding the mask was not logical at all! As explained above. Edited April 10, 2020 by betsy Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Rue said: Also with due respect I believe you misrepresented what Dougie said. Soldiers learn projectile patterns from explosives, bullets, toxic gas, and witnessing spray from blood, vomit and other bodily fluids. They have knowledge of masks and other protective gear. Thanks but as much as I respect science, doctors and you and your well stated answer, I must respect what Dougie said and defend it. He only was stating that droplet movement has a pattern governed by gravity. As I state as a basic rule: I don't get to dictate the laws of physics, I (we) just have to live (or in this case die) by them. When considering the trajectory of an artillery shell, there are THREE forces that make the shape of the curve.s Gravity is but one, aerodynamic resistance is another. However, even for really large particles there is another force that is NOT to be ignored - the collisions with air molecules due to the movement OF the air itself. HERE'S THE KICK: When particles become very small, the mass-to-surface-area ratio changes dramatically and the air can very easily carry said particles aloft...thus why smoke, steam (cloud/fog) and indeed exhailed droplets of moisture from your breathing tract behave more as a part of the airflow pattern rather than an artillery projectile. The leaks of a face mask when coughing or sneezing have very high velocity "jets" of air through those leaks, and (Bernoulli) the low pressure of that airstream will pump not only air within, but some fairly large particles with them. It is called the "Venturi" after its discoverer. It is used to pump cargoes such as grain or cement with nothing but a bit of airflow. Do you think a CoViD virus might be lighter than cement???? Here is an excellent Wiki article to explain in detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect. With all due respect, Dougie is a philosophical thinker and an infantryman, not an artillaryman (or I suspect sniper) or engineer. Edited April 10, 2020 by cannuck Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, betsy said: Though I appreciate all your efforts to try to explain it..................... bottom-line: No one really fully understand this virus. All governments ALL OVER THE WORLD have their own medical experts that advice them (Federal and provincial, etc.,) They have varying approach to minimize the spread of this virus. You can see the differences in their advices. Have you seen the ad for Michigan. I can't help but see it every time I'm on Family Feud. In some places, wearing a mask in public is MANDATORY! I think Tam had stuck her neck out really way out there when she kept on about how masks won't really do you any good (but to protect others if you've got covid-19). That line is not consistent with the fact that even ASYMPTOMATIC people can spread the virus. Here is where it gets dicey: If you don't have any symptoms - how would you know you're not infected? Can you please explain that to me? I wouldn't be surprised that the reason we saw a lot of COMMUNITY SPREAD is due to the fact that asymptomatic people were unknowingly spreading the virus! Now, Tam is forced to back-pedal. She has to......because, her initial position regarding the mask was not logical at all! As explained above. I have no need to understand the virus, only the physical dynamics of what air and water droplets do in and around a mask or any other impediment to flow. Just to be technically correct in a medical sense (this doesn't come from me, but from our children who are both rather accomplished at cellular and genetic level biology) there is no such thing as being "asymptomatic". The mere presence of virus in your breath is in fact a symptom that you are indeed a carrier. It would be far more accurate to state simply that the symptoms are not easily detectable. What we really need to understand (and I suspect Dr. Tam does due to her training as a public health professional) is that it is human behaviour that has to be understood. Just reading through this thread, you can see where people are emotionally attached to conclusions without the bother to understanding the facts. THAT is human nature and I suspect THAT is what she understands and is trying to work around. I think if you could sit down with Dr. Tam, you would find out her answers are perfectly logical - if you could find the whole story behind the decisions she must make. Edited April 10, 2020 by cannuck Quote
Rue Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, cannuck said: As I state as a basic rule: I don't get to dictate the laws of physics, I (we) just have to live (or in this case die) by them. When considering the trajectory of an artillery shell, there are THREE forces that make the shape of the curve.s Gravity is but one, aerodynamic resistance is another. However, even for really large particles there is another force that is NOT to be ignored - the collisions with air molecules due to the movement OF the air itself. HERE'S THE KICK: When particles become very small, the mass-to-surface-area ratio changes dramatically and the air can very easily carry said particles aloft...thus why smoke, steam (cloud/fog) and indeed exhailed droplets of moisture from your breathing tract behave more as a part of the airflow pattern rather than an artillery projectile. The leaks of a face mask when coughing or sneezing have very high velocity "jets" of air through those leaks, and (Bernoulli) the low pressure of that airstream will pump not only air within, but some fairly large particles with them. It is called the "Venturi" after its discoverer. It is used to pump cargoes such as grain or cement with nothing but a bit of airflow. Do you think a CoViD virus might be lighter than cement???? Here is an excellent Wiki article to explain in detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect. With all due respect, Dougie is a philosophical thinker and an infantryman, not an artillaryman (or I suspect sniper) or engineer. Zero disagreement to your comments just the degree of interpretation you gave them as applied to what he was getting at. He wasn't equating shells to droplets...lol why am I defending Dougie...he thinks I am an Eskimo communist....again ..appreciate your well stated positions and defer to their content. You and Pinky I appreciate for your efforts. Hope some others do but as you can see sometimes well we just don't get an audience that gets the jokes. Happens. Betsy will come around she just needs a rum cocktail and a smidgeon of gin seng. By the way how the hell can we clean up wet markets around the world..I just do not see that happening and so I hop the pendelum of global trade swings back to more domestically regulated markets that offer us more sanitary protectionl. Then again many people revert back to the same habits soon after a crisis is over. Spent sometime with addicts. I see some of the stuff you see as behavioural and therefore avoidable if we change behaviour which means for me helping people challenging fear not feed it. So many phobias..so little time to address them in comedy routines. Regards, H. Youngman Edited April 10, 2020 by Rue Quote
betsy Posted April 10, 2020 Author Report Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, cannuck said: I have no need to understand the virus, only the physical dynamics of what air and water droplets do in and around a mask or any other impediment to flow. Just to be technically correct in a medical sense (this doesn't come from me, but from our children who are both rather accomplished at cellular and genetic level biology) there is no such thing as being "asymptomatic". The mere presence of virus in your breath is in fact a symptom that you are indeed a carrier. It would be far more accurate to state simply that the symptoms are not easily detectable. What we really need to understand (and I suspect Dr. Tam does due to her training as a public health professional) is that it is human behaviour that has to be understood. Just reading through this thread, you can see where people are emotionally attached to conclusions without the bother to understanding the facts. THAT is human nature and I suspect THAT is what she understands and is trying to work around. I think if you could sit down with Dr. Tam, you would find out her answers are perfectly logical - if you could find the whole story behind the decisions she must make. FYI, asymptomatic means you are not showing any symptoms. Unless the virus is visible to the naked eye - the mere presence of it is not a symptom! We have heard medical experts talk about asymptomatic people (explaining what it means), and here you are saying there is no such thing? I'm sorry, but I don't argue with or discuss around personal opinion. Edited April 10, 2020 by betsy Quote
cannuck Posted April 10, 2020 Report Posted April 10, 2020 31 minutes ago, betsy said: FYI, asymptomatic means you are not showing any symptoms. Unless the virus is visible to the naked eye - the mere presence of it is not a symptom! We have heard medical experts talk about asymptomatic people (explaining what it means), and here you are saying there is no such thing? I'm sorry, but I don't argue with or discuss around personal opinion. Not my opinion, just that of scientists who kind of stick to the facts, not generalizations. Quote
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